Depressing setback with my wife . . . .

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Veronica, please don't muck this thread up with attacks on Anne and a compilation of all of her forum posting inconsistencies.

Spare me your ire about what you think I might do. I like Anne, I worry about Anne, I'm one of the people who encouraged Anne to identify as TS. I know you think you're defending her, but you've got it wrong. I have no need to refer to previous posts...it's unnecessary in this instance.

If all you want to do is show off your tendency toward historical accuracy

How can one offer advice pertinent to the situation unless one knows the person as best they can through this imperfect medium? Anne engages in avoidance, I know this, she knows this and has admitted she does and has done it. Many of us have done it, many of us will do it in the future. It's all about recognizable patterns of behavior that we see over and over again in ourselves and others.

and if you can't offer any constructive input than perhaps you might sit this one out.

What part of "Be Direct, Use the Words, and stop engaging in avoidance", is not constructive. Essentially that's what ReineD said as well. I just said it much more simply, bluntly and directly.

People might like to think that nice commiserations like "Oh sweetie hun dear, I so feel for you and am sorry your wife doesn't understand, I hope things get better hun." are useful, the direct "Anne engates in Avoidance, Anne should stop doing so" is actually useful advice. it's that simple.

Veronica

[Dawn cd]

I guess none of us really face things until we have to. Anne, you told your wife time and again what you are doing but at some deep level she didn't hear you. She was in "some kind of denial." It's your dysphoria, not hers, and so she didn't have the same imperative to deal with it. Now, for some reason, your decision to pursue electrolysis has brought home the reality of what's happening. Her first reaction is disbelief—but, remember, this is just her first reaction. For you it's also an opportunity to bring her on-board for the full trip. So postpone electrolysis for a short time and get her back to the therapist. Talk to her longer. Give her the books again. Maybe this time she'll really hear you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

85% ...no way...just no way... in my limited experience the number is closer to 0 than 85... especially if the gender dypshoria gets bad...and lets get real...thats the driver...how bad is the gender distress...

++ WTH?? +++

where does all this judgement come from??

conversations happen in real time...this particular one popped up in the context of electrolysis..its not rocket science...information gets shared and parsed over time...certain things may or may not have been said or were left misunderstood...
that all got cleared up by anne's wife...her views became known, a grey line is now black......maybe it was her wife that wasn't sharing enough?? who can know? who cares why.......now the landscape is clearer...it feels bad...it hurts...maybe for both of them...

day to day, that's how communication actually works...one day you havent shared info, something happens, the next day more info is shared...its like a turning point...its not mystery..this is a moment in time not the culmination of some undisclosed secret plan

++++

and the level of gender dypshoria matters
..alot..that drives what happens more than anything else..

...its not some selfish need for a transitioner to say "i have to do it right now", its not a lie to desperately cling to hope that you wont have to transition even though in your heart you know it may be impossible, nor is it the noble high ground to "go for keeping the marriage together".....feel free to preach to her about how she should have done this or that...but what i see is nothing more than a ts woman trying manage her gender dysphoria the best way she can...and predictably, as the GD ramps up it becomes more of an issue than it was before... whats the mystery??

you start out trying to make it better, and the GD gets worse and worse..
if the GD has not reached that point for you, then know that it likely will...do your wives know that its highly likely that although you are hanging tough for now, as you age and life happens it will be more and more unsustainable...how will they feel in 10 years when it happens to you?

...its not love of family, or more honesty or better communication skills or lot in life.......
...if it hasnt exploded in your life, it just hasnt happened "yet"
.. people never plan for gender dypshoria to start, nor do they plan for the day when it makes nothing else matter..

gender dypshoria renders promises and noble gestures less than worthless .....and as it ramps up it makes effective and constructive communication more difficult and even impossible..and in those cases don't we all just do our best??


i so feel for you anne reading some of these posts...i just don't get it...

[Lynnmorgan451]

i think its 85% DON'T work out....I read somewhere, or more like 98%....or 100% is what it feels like in my case

[Michelle.M]

i think its 85% DON'T work out....

Could be. Like I said, I'm gonna see if I can track down the source. But there are enough success stories just here on this site to give anyone hope.

I have a motto that sustains me, and it seems to work here - "Expect the best but prepare for the worst"

I'm hopeful that Anne could be a success story.

[Kristyn Hill]

hhhmmmm, let me think on this one....

[Kathryn Martin]

I think that marriages most of the time do not survive. The younger the transitioner is the higher the likelyhood that the marriage will not survive in the long term.

Mine survived but only because of very personal circumstances that are not comparable to others. But it is possible.

The other thing is that in the marriage dynamic transitioning does effectively destroy the underlying assumptions of the marriage. I wrote a couple of weeks ago this somewhere else:

"Being a husband means taking a common outlook and, based on common assumptions at the beginning of the compact struck at marriage, together, man-woman, children, security, togetherness...... and so on. You destroyed the common assumption, whether deliberately or not has really no relevance."

In your spouse coming to terms with your transition this in my view must be always kept in mind. She didn't do a damn thing but trust you to keep your promise. Marriage survival is actually never marriage survival. It is in effect the striking of a new compact with different assumptions to start out with. If you want to continue as you were in regards to your relationship, I would venture to say, the survival of your relationship in which you are life companions of one another will most likely fail. If you can, after having lived through her legitimate anger find a new common ground you might have a life together. After my surgery and after she had lived through her anger, disappointment and hurt, my spouse, and when she realized that she loved me not the sex I was born with, she proposed to me. In all of this I had no right to ask for a continuation of our marriage. And I did not get a continuation of our marriage. We got engaged last year and we will be married again this year.

[Michelle.M]

I think that marriages most of the time do not survive. The younger the transitioner is the higher the likelyhood that the marriage will not survive in the long term.

Mine survived but only because of very personal circumstances that are not comparable to others. But it is possible.

For some reason that quote from Anna Karenina came to mind

"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

I suspect that the unique circumstances in your life may be common, at least in tone and character, to those of any other couple who gets through this.

[Marleena]

I have watched Anne struggle with this since I've been here. I've decided to keep my mouth shut now because I really feel she's being pulled in all different directions and nothing I say can help. I stand by my last advice that only a professional can help her with this battle and I wish her luck.

[Momarie]

I wonder if your wife feels she has compromised so much...yet you keep wanting more.

Your journey so far and HRT must have been a HUGE adjustment for her too...and then just when the dust settles, you bring up electrolysis.

Maybe it's time for you to make some compromises and concessions for her.

Most people here understand why and if you can't...but don't be angry at her because you can't.

Try to be empathetic and understand what she is feeling.

[melissaK]

“The key here is appearance. No matter how supportive the friend or partner may be while transition is still in the talking stage, the first sign of physical change almost invariably forces a reassessment of that support. It may not necessarily mean a complete loss of the relationship, but as the transition progresses, the interchange between the two parties typically undergoes a radical “redefinition. I have noticed that the more intimate the relationship before transition, the more likely the relationship will be radically changed.”

Excerpt From: Anne Vitale PhD. “The Gendered Self.” Flyfisher Press, 2010-01-04. iBooks.

This seemed appropriate.

[Amanda22]

Hey Anne, I'm sorry you have so many negative things going on right now. Two things struck me by reading your post. First, have you ever said point blank to your wife that you will be transitioning physically to become a woman? I get that sitting with the gender therapist and all the communication with you would make that very clear, but sometimes people surprise me. Also, a couple of months ago this may have been an abstract thing for her. It gets more real for her as you change and some threshold was crossed with the hair removal idea. I'm not saying that's your or her fault, but maybe is just the way it is.

It sounds like a serious discussion should happen and an agreement on your future together be reached.

[KellyJameson]

I'm sorry Anne that you are now experiencing the added burden of a partner who does not support your transitioning.

I think it is human nature to avoid unpleasant truths when those truths come with unpleasant consequences.

By the sound of your wife's words she was accommodating you without understanding the gravity of gender dysphoria.

You are now experiencing the "push back" that probably your breast growth triggered.

The breasts along with the face have the most powerful emotional affect on people when touching their subconscious representation of womanhood.

In her fear and anger she has convinced herself that you are suffering from a delusion that you are a woman.

I believed myself that gender dysphoria was nothing more than a self inflicted delusion and that is why I fought it by resisting the constant complusion to change.

I'm sympathetic with your wife because she is facing the possible loss of everything but my fear is greatest for you.

Gender dysphoria is strongly affected by the world we live in and this world will increase the intensity of the dysphoria the more you are removed from living your actual gender.

Mine was always a dull unrelenting ache because I avoided living as a "man" through relationships that demanded me to perform these roles.

I avoided men and women who through their expectations locked me into a gender role that would be impossible for me to perform.

You did the opposite and stepped into the role of husband and this may actually have increased the GD leading you into depression and a form of living death where you go through the movements and performance of living in a numb state.

You live between depression and numbness with moments of happiness that almost resembles bi-polar and borderline personality disorder.

Living contrary to your internalized and felt gender identity will make you sick. I see no other possible outcome.

I have had moments of this experience and it terrified me to such a degree that I fled the relationship as if my very life depended on it without any understanding of what I was running from. I literally felt like I was being destroyed by the relationship.

Now I see I was fighting to protect my identity.

In my opinion you are in a very fragile state because you have been forcing yourself for years to live opposite who you really are. You have been struggling to assert your real and natural self (identity) as a woman while in the body and roles opposite of who you are.

You are living between two worlds pulling you in two different directions. The world outside you that you partake in as a "man" with all its expectations and the world inside you that knows this way of living is not natural to the self.

It feels like you are constantly under assault, constantly under attack as if the world is trying to murder you while leaving your body alive for its own use.

There is no "you" but a "tool" used by others.

You live in a constant state of war with no strength to fight, taking you from constant anxiety into depression and than back into anxiety.

It is simply not possible to live this way for long. Sooner or later something will break inside you.

Everyone is taking from you so you are living your life for others and this would not necessarily be a problem if it was not for the gender dysphoria.

When you are not living aligned between body and mind the worlds expectations will kill you.

In my opinion gender dysphoria requires you to act strongly for and in your own self protection.

Nature and culture has trained men to sacrifice themselves for love and country and if they do not they are cowards and not men.

This works fine in the world of cisgenders but you must remember you do not live in their world.

You can fight for country and protect those you love but you must not try to do it to support others image of you as "man" "husband" "son" "brother" ect....

Your wife is trying to push you back into a role that you cannot possibly perform without experiencing intense suffering.

No one will protect you when you are transsexual because you stand outside the system that cisgenders have built that serves their needs and wants.

You are attempting to step out of this system while still remaining a member of it but those who naturally belong to it will resent you for breaking its rules as the structure that supports it.

This is the loneliness of being in an extreme minority and why it is so difficult to leave the safety of the cisgender herd that adds to the torment of the transsexual.

You are constantly forced to make a choice between living in their world which creates suffering or living in your own world that is proper for you whose entry you pay with in the suffering of leaving the unnatural world you have been living in.

You pay in pain to escape pain. There is no other way.

[Angela Campbell]

My god.....Kelly, you just said some things that hit me so hard I cannot even say what I want to say....I have no words right now

[Lynnmorgan451]

You pay in pain to escape pain. There is no other way.

I have nothing to add to this except -----------> exactly how I feel

[Rianna Humble]

This is the third time in two days that I have had to step in to remove posts that were attacking the person rather than the ideas.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THESE FORUMS ARE HERE FOR AND IT IS AGAINST THE RULES

If you really feel strongly about the way that someone has expressed their ideas, either take it to PM without attacking the person, or report the post.

If you want to engage in attacks against someone, take up boxing.

[LeaP]

The interactions in this thread are fascinating from the standpoint of the personal dynamics. There are several themes, but the strongest is blame. Let's reduce the script for clarity:

Wife has problem. Anne, it's your fault.

It's actually funny in a way, one reason being that it is such a male posture when a woman has an issue to assign responsibility to the husband. "Poor woman – couldn't possibly be her. It must be him ... the jerk. "

Then there are the rationales. Of all of them, the one I find the most comical assumes that what Anne has said to her wife is anything like what she writes here. I have to tell you that that is a pretty unthinking assumption. Very few people expose too much that is too personal or too detailed on an open Internet forum. But you also have to be able to read detail into different styles of writing.

Anne, you write in a very emotional style, but it carries a tremendous amount of information. You are also an attorney, and perfectly capable of writing with exacting precision.

So what to make of the OP? I take it that you said little about communications between you and your wife because, in your view, they have been than adequate and extensive besides. Your focus was on the conundrum of dealing with someone who understands – but refuses to internalize. Who is brilliant herself, but prefers to avoid. Just about everyone in the thread who is involved in a relationship and is in any kind of transition (or has transitioned) completely understood what you were saying.

I write this just having returned from my therapy appointment. One of the discussion points was how much to communicate, when, and how. I am not one who will reduce this down to simple statements like being "completely honest." I know that there was a time, as there was for most of us, when you did hold back and hide. I am also aware that ended quite a while ago. Everything has been on the table for a while. That, however, does not mean mindlessly dumping information in a way that could be destructive, either.

In this, you deserve no blame. Neither, by the way, does your wife.

[Kathryn Martin]

It is indeed funny that fault is apportioned so easily. In the context of transsexuals no one seems to get the notion that this is a no fault environment. Guilt is the most mis-placed emotion in all of this. This is not a blameworthy situation but in fact both transitioner and spouse are entirely victims. One because of a birth condition the other because the spouse has a birth condition.

If you understand that it goes a long way to find the right approach to resolving the situation.

Thanks Lea

[Anne2345]

I really appreciate all of the responses.

I agree with those here that propose that neither I nor my wife are at fault. I do not blame her for her feelings. She didn't sign up for this. But I didn't sign up for this, either. So it's not like I am going out of my way to intentionally sabotage or tank my marriage. I love my wife very much. I do not want to lose her.

At the same time, however, I recognize that I am well on my way to losing myself if I strive to retain the status quo and do nothing more. And in the end, after I have gone completely insane and lost my mind, who will that serve? Me? My wife? My daughter? My friends and other family? No good can come from me losing it.

On the other hand, if I go forward, who does that serve? Clearly, it serves me, although not necessarily my wife. I would have to think, at least at some level, that it would serve my daughter by the simple fact that I will not have done something stupid like slit my wrists and check out.

Regardless, just so I am absolutely clear - I want very much to retain my marriage.

Equally as clear - despite my best efforts to the contrary, I cannot help myself, and I cannot continue to fight this without going mad and wanting to die.

I would like very much to have what most would consider an average, everyday, normal life, and a life devoid of such hardship. And maybe going forward can provide that opportunity. Maybe. But I suppose there is no chance of that if I go back.

Several of you have asked whether I have told my wife point blank whether I am transsexual and that I plan on transitioning.

So what to make of the OP? I take it that you said little about communications between you and your wife because, in your view, they have been than adequate and extensive besides. Your focus was on the conundrum of dealing with someone who understands - but refuses to internalize. Who is brilliant herself, but prefers to avoid. Just about everyone in the thread who is involved in a relationship and is in any kind of transition (or has transitioned) completely understood what you were saying.

Exactly.

As for admitting to her the actual word that I am transsexual. Yes. I have. On many, many occasions. In this regard, she is under no illusions.

What I have not told her, however, is that I do plan on transitioning to a woman. At least, I haven't done so yet.

But this is for a very good reason. Well, perhaps it's not a good reason, but it is a reason, nonetheless. That being, I have yet to tell or admit to myself that I am going to transition. Quite frankly, I don't know what I am going to do. Or perhaps more accurately, I am not sure if I am ready to accept and admit what I am going to do yet.

You all preach, and rightfully so, that one should only transition when there is no other option. Either right or wrong, even though my actions, thoughts, feelings, emotions, and needs all suggest otherwise, I want to make my life work as it is. Except for the part that I do not want it to work as is, because I know that it cannot work as is. Lol. Kinda f'ed up, huh? Well, this whole thing is f'ed up.

I don't know. Perhaps I am hoping that some day soon I will just wake up and all of this will have passed. Until and unless it does, though, I am failing life miserably as is. I cannot continue to sustain this over the long run. Just for example, I am barely functional at work as it is. I wouldn't be surprised if I walked into the office tomorrow and was fired on the spot for lack of production. Even worse, I recognize this, yet I hardly even care. How stupid is THAT??!!!

Kaitlyn mentioned something a while back a few months ago that really struck me. Unlike some here who have meticulously planned out every detail of their transition, she explained that she just kinda "backed into it." She just kept going forward, step by step, day by day, until one day the thought just hit her - she had transitioned!

I can be stubborn about what I am ready or willing to admit or accept about myself. I recognize this.

Sigh.

"Where is all of this leading to?"

That is one hell of a question.

[stefan37]

There really should be no blame. Anne's wife may blame him for not communicating clearly enough and she is as was said frightened and angry. Anne could blame his wife because she did not research the subject thoroughly. But the reality is Anne is going down a path her wife possibly cannot follow. My wife not would read the literature or follow the links I provided. she refuses to join this site for her reasons. We attended 6 therapy sessions together and it helped some, but she reached an impasse where further therapy together would not serve her well. She is seeing a therapist with extensive trans experience on her. We both love each other deeply, and I know she kept an open mind and tried but the physical changes were too much for her to bear. We now sleep in separate beds and she seems happier. As we discuss our future and since I have lost her as my spouse I will move forward. As we discuss name changes and surgeries, she knows in her heart she will not be able to move forward with me and we will at that time cease to live together. My thought is Anne's wife is feeling the same as my wife did.

This is something I found on the web a while ago
spousal rate of divorce to mtf transition
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/mfr/4919...;view=fulltext
I thought we would be in the 20% that survived and of that 20 I believed our love would give us an 80% chance. Well the reality is so far from my hope. She tried, I know she tried her best. She knows I must move forward so in our best interests we are we are.
that is the brutal hard truth about spouses and transitioning. There is a member in my support group that was married and her wife was present and supported her through her transition including surgeries. She informed the group 3 weeks ago they were divorcing.
I am extremely envious of those couples that are able to stay together but the odds of that are poor. Most woman that marry a man will not want to live with a woman, it is that simple. The only advice I can give is to be as honest as you can, include your spouse in decisions and hope your love can carry the day. I lost the most precious individual in my life and that was the only fear I had about my decision to pursue transition. Anne and anybody that prusues transition should be aware that the loss of your spouse is a very real possibility. All we can do is to continue to give as much support as we can to them.

[Nicole Erin]

Well, it is common that "Accepting" GG's often decide later that they have a problem with it.
On a good note - if you end up divorced, at least you won't have some GG trying to tell you how to live.
I was hurt when I went thru my divorce (partially cause of being TS) but these days, I do what I want.

We each have to live our own lives. We do not owe our happiness to some other grown-up who doesn't approve of how we live. Why should you sacrifice YOUR well being just cause some grown-ass GG woman doesn't want you to live as YOU want but instead live as she thinks you should?

[Kathryn Martin]

Sigh.

"Where is all of this leading to?"

That is one hell of a question.

That is one hell of a question but it is a rhetorical one. And sorry, love you know it too.

[kimdl93]

This is definitely a setback, and I think most of us who are married know what it feels like. You've heard this here dozens of times - expect your SO to experience a roller coaster of emotions and expect certain milestones - like deciding to have electrolysis - to elicit a visceral reaction. Each of these milestones demarque something of a point of no return. And its natural for your SO to fear that the male is beginning to ebb away.

But, on the positive side, she has been very supportive up till now and has been through a lot of counseling with you. This setback may actually simply be setting the stage for her acceptance of the next stage. Give her some time to mull it over.

My experience isn't exactly the same and my journey may not lead to quite the same end, but I recall a similar moment in my marriage when I asked my wife if it would be OK if I was fully dressed - foundations, forms, make up, wig, bling - in her presence. This came after months of what I took to be her tacit acceptance of me with everything but the wig and makeup. When I asked the question, I could hear the pain and the sinking feeling. But she said yes.

Then, I got fully dressed and we had a long conversation. During that conversation she basically said she wished this would go away, that she missed the smell and feel of a man, and really wasn't happy with the extent of my dressing. She apologized for not being able to accept it, and I told her she had no obligation to do so. It was my "thing" not her's and if she wasn't happy with it, if it hurt her ...even a dull ache...then I needed to partition our lives so I didn't inflict this on her.

I left the room, showered and reappeared as a male. But later, she came up and embraced me and said "I could see you deflate before my eyes". "Let's rethink this" and that night in bed, she said "I have something I have to say. I don't want to suck the joy out of your life" and "this isn't really a big thing - its not anything at all, and I want you to be happy"

I took a little break from dressing out of respect for her and we eventually reached a new plateau that works for both of us. I dress at least 70% of the time and bring that male facade out when it suits her needs. We both know that the male is more of an act - physically and especially emotionally. But that's where we are now and we'll see how for how long.

[docrobbysherry]

Anne, this sucks! I wish I had an idea, a plan, a suggestion, ANYTHING DAM IT!

I ALWAYS have an answer, a plan, a quip, some DAM THING! But, I have nothing but tears for u and yours, hun!

U r such a remarkable, sensitive, and lovely person. And, I'm sure your SO and daughter r, too. But, I can't see a happy ending for all of u unless u, suddenly, somehow, find a clear path for Anne to follow.

I DO hope I'm wrong and wish all of u all very best! Remember, I and so many others r here for U!

[stefan37]

Anne, Like Kaitlyn I have taken my transition step by step. You may find formulating a general plan and then taking it in steps the best way to move forward. For me every step I have taken towards transition has felt right and confirms for me I am moving in the right direction. I have some general plans for the future, but the immediate task is funding and completing electrolysis and navigating with my wife our future relationship. You may not want to admit to yourself, but you are transitioning. the hormones will and have started to change your physical being. They are also and it is much more subtle changing your brain chemistry and the way you think and react to stimuli around you. Can you take hormones and live as a male as some have. Maybe, but I highly doubt you could as you have stated many times in previous posts.

Considering the anguish you are experiencing you really need to take steps to alleviate your pain. There will be losses, there will be anguish and hurt. It will be very emotional at times. It is not an easy road and certainly not for the squeamish. But there is hope and light. You will start experience many positive events that will confirm for you moving in the right direction. Let go and take those steps. they do not have to be large. Small steps, start laser or electro and see if it is a positive experience. Communicate with your wife what you need and ask what she needs. You may be able to come to common ground. You may not and the hurt will be there. It does get better as many members here have stated. Your life will be authentic and you will want to be alive. Your work will improve and your productivity will increase. Whining about our condition will not make it go away. you can not do the same things over and over and expect different results. to get a different result something must change.