Identify yourself as you see fit, and if others want to apply a textbook definition to you that's their problem. I don't blame you for being offended -Originally Posted by linda allen
- but there's no need to start something by injecting more conflict and division.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
I'm generally in favor of the umbrella-ness of the term transgender but the limitations can be quite clear...
I won't tell you that you are a transgendered individual. However, I will suggest that your behavior is transgendered. As you are one who identifies as 100% male, you are hardly transgendered in a classical sense. Yet as a male who likes to dress up as a female, that is a behavior which is seems to fall under transgender as a description.
I think the umbrella term is easier to get your head around when such a distinction is made.
Especially because the Muggles who know what the "T" is in LGBT rarely have enough experience to understand the differences in those of us beneath that term. One may see Linda who I reference above (I hope you don't mind being used in this example), or myself, or a fully transitioned woman who is still recognized as being trans-something and we are likely to be lumped into a single descriptive category based on that person's experience. Linda might be put off if she is perceived as being transsexual while the transitioned woman may be offended if she is perceived as being a CD. Yet somehow it seems that the rather benign term of transgender could be the least offensive description for use by the uninitiated, even if it proves to be a bit broad or somewhat inaccurate.
Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)
I agree. When my son wanted to explain my transition to his children (youngest being 8 years old) he used that "man trapped in a woman's body" analogy. In real life I only hear that phrase used by magazine writers and on Lifetime movies.
But I let it go because it answers the mail and helps those with limited (or no) education on trans issues to get a grip on the essential aspect of what's happening and opens the door for initial acceptance (assuming the audience is accepting in the first place) and future discussions.
I go with it because it works while not being a pejorative term; it's a recognizable term and thus a means to an end.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
The "trans" of "transsexual" and "transgender" and "transition" is exactly the same root, the origin of which means "motion across" which (many centuries ago) was adapted to indicate changing of state; the root was (as is typical in Latin) also used in adjective forms such as "that which has crossed over" or "that which is in an alternate state" (the 'trans' vs 'cis' of chemistry). Thus, transgender does refer to (A) the process of changing gender; as well as (B) that which has changed gender (relative to an arbitrary norm). Some root as "transfer", "transmit", "transaction", and other words.
The difference between "transgender" and "transsexual" is rooted in the difference between "gender" and "sex". At the time that the term "transsexual" was invented, the difference was not well understood, and the one term, at the time it was invented, covered both meanings. As the understanding of 'gender' as not being identical to 'sex' evolved, the barely-older term 'transgender' was emphasized by some, intended to convey a different nuance than 'transsexual' typically conveyed -- and the process of pushing away from 'transsexual' served also to shade the nuance of 'transsexual' further away from the original shared meaning. "transgender" appeared in 1965, "transsexual" appeared in 1966, when "transgender" was not often used yet (not until its 1969 adoption by Virginia Prince.)
Notice "tends to" and "both have the sense" and "did not become common until the mid 20th century". One should, IMHO, not chide people for "refusing to acknowledge" shades of meaning that they are likely unaware of... especially not without having displayed understanding that there is substantial overlap between the terms. Do we say that people "refuse to acknowledge" the difference between "pants" and "trousers" ??
There are other subtle differences between "transsexual" and "transgender" in English. The "al" adjective ending turns out to be relatively strong indication of "adjective" in English, that resists co-opting to other parts of speech without modification of the word. Consider, for example, "transit", which is most commonly a simple present tense verb, and yet can also be used as an adjective ("Transit Stop") or pseudo-noun ("Rapid Transit"); "al", as an ending "calls out for" modification when the part of speech is changed, as in as adding "ize" to form a verb from "sexual". But the "er" ending of "transgender", here intended as indicating an adjective, also happens to be a present-tense verb form, such as in "render unto Caeser". Thus, "transgender" is capable of being used without modification as a verb. Now were these differences in adaptability to be used unchanged as different parts of speech intentional?? I would doubt it.
"Transsexual" does have meaning within a specialized lexicon that is not quite the same as its use outside that context. None-the-less the different contexts exist and should be acknowledged. There is, by way of analogy, not much benefit in railing at people for referring to a "tomato" as being a "vegetable" (which it is in US law, but in botany it is a fruit.)
Ooh! Sandra, I got the willies just reading all that! I am gonna save that for future use. Seriously. That was great!
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
Let's go right to the dictionary to get a definition of crossdresser :http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...cross-dressing
If we go by the dictionary meaning you'll see why there is so much confusion here. Dictionaries used to be the holy grail in research.
And from the same source, transgender:
trans·gen·der
adjective \-ˈjen-dər\
Definition of TRANSGENDER
: of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth
— trans·gen·der·ism noun
Last edited by Marleena; 05-02-2013 at 10:01 AM. Reason: more info
I think on this forum, transgendered usually means someone who is undergoing therapy and are transsexuals.
A line has appeared here over a period of time and I think it is used more in the transsexual forums.
Transgender is no worse than homosexual, transvestite, and other words that have been used to describe us over the years.
Look at the phrase used now "African Americans." Is that better than some of the other descriptors over time.
Work on your elegance,
and beauty will follow.
Why are we even arguing this amongst us. Let us not give the impression to outsiders that we have confusion about this ourselves. We are who we are and we can stand together or alone on different subjects. That's the beauty of freedom and we're blessed that we can do that in some parts of the world.
Sorry, I'll just go back to sleep now
I kind of agree with you. I really do not like the term. I checked the definition on several sites and the best any one site can say, the term is in flux. I do not consider a man who wears just women's panties to be a crossdresser. To me, he's has a fetish. I do not consider any actor who portrays a woman to be a crossdresser. He is practicing his craft.
I'm a senior, who has been wearing women's clothing for more than fifty years. Call me a crossdresser. What is disturbing to me on this site is some of the advice given out by members who have a different direction than a teenager trying to figure out what's he is all about.
When I see a person who is transitioning from male to female telling a novice crossdressing to just put on that dress and reveal yourself it disturbs me. A person transitioning has a different set of goals than a "recreational " crossdresser.
Depends entirely on the context of how it is being used in a sentence and who is using it. F*** used to be a bad word. Unless you were in the process of doing it or having it done to you (Well sometimes that could be considered bad.) But then it became funny when somebody saw something humorous happened and pointed out that it was "F***ing hilarious!" Everybody laughed and started using the word differently. Who knew? So words change over time. Who knows what we will be called tomorrow? Probably "Normal." Which would be bad because then we'd have to figure out something else to do so that we could feel "special". Maybe we could all dress up like cute little pink bunny rabbits and call ourselves TRANSBUNNIES?
Last edited by dawnmarrie1961; 05-02-2013 at 11:44 AM.
CANCER IS A BITCH SO YOU HAVE TO BE MORE OF A BITCH TO BEAT IT.
As an umbrella term i have no issues with being described as trangendered. If asked for more specificity, I am a crossdresser. Am happy with either.
Why not? We DO have confusion among ourselves! But that's not necessarily a bad thing; it's merely an evolutionary process and is a sign of growth within the tribe. We'll eventually sort it all out.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
Back in the 60's I used to get really upset when my oldest brother used to call me a "Fagot". I cried. It hurt me. I didn't even know what the word meant. But I knew it had to be something bad when he said it because of the way that he said it and the fact that it usually occured when his hippy friends were around. He always told me he was "Sorry." later. He was just using it to impress his friends who thought I was a bit strange. I looked up the word in the dictionary. By definition it meant "a bundle of sticks". I couldn't help but wonder why my brother would call me that? Was I that skinny?
It wasn't till years later that I figured out exactly what it was. But by then it was just another "word" to me because i'd heard so many others. And I knew, in my heart, I wasn't any of them.
The problem with an "umbrella" word is that, no matter how well intentioned, somebody enevitably ends up getting wet because they aren't standing closely enough with the other people under cover.
Last edited by dawnmarrie1961; 05-02-2013 at 11:41 AM.
CANCER IS A BITCH SO YOU HAVE TO BE MORE OF A BITCH TO BEAT IT.
Actually the umbrella term for the example you use is "Human" The subcategories are race, religion, color, ethnicity, beliefs, gender, etc.
Once again the label thing has arisen. You would think by now we would have found the answer. With any profession or walk of life you have to use words that communicate as clearly as possible what you are discussing. In my field we use the words cancer and tumor. You may find these interchangeable but they are not. Under that we use words that further define what we are speaking of Carcinoma tells us that it is a malignant growth (cancer) of epithelial (or glandular) tissue. This is how we communicate within my group. Now if Dr X decides to say "I disagree, I will call it a Ralph" It muddies the discussion. Words are used to communicate things and certain words within a community are used to help communicate. That is all it is.
Keep it friendly and sociable and we can leave this thread open. Maybe, there will be some common ground
The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
Chief Joseph
Nez Perce
“Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,
I don't have a problem with the term transgender, because I know what it means. The only real problem ( in my opinion ) is if you are not either LGBT or familiar with it,the term is misused.Most of the "normal people" don't understand it as a blanket term that covers a pretty diverse group. Case in point my daughters boyfriend thought transgender meant you are gay and want to transition. I wasn't there but my wife explained it to him, it's all about knowledge, people aren't as afraid of something if they,at least semi understand it.
Hugs , Nikki Rich
I'm beginning to wonder if this is my hang up as well. Truth is, I'm very comfortable with lots of "umbrella terms" in other situations, but I have a particular averse reaction to this one. So maybe it's less that we have such a term/definition on this forum as it is the one that was chosen. The connection with "transition" (leaving the male me behind and becoming the female me) is too much for me. I'm not gay, and I don't want to be a woman. Or at least, I don't want to stop being a man. I just want to be me. And you can say "but that's what transgender means" till your blue in the face, it doesn't erase those connotations for me.
I am not who you think I am
Yada, Yada, Yada. Who cares, identify yourself as you see fit and don't worry about what others think.
This is a key point to me. The general public knows all of us as transgendered because that is in LGBT, news articles, policy letters, government wording, etc. Now the fact that we are fairly closeted means that our biggest goal is education or else no one will ever know what we are about. Quite honestly, we will just confuse and alienate people if the education isn't kept to some kind of simple level. If we have 500 definitions because each of us prefer a different word, then we will not get the message across. Think of it this way; sexual orientation - straight, gay, bisexual; gender identity - male, female, transgender. They are getting their message through to the public in general and I think in part is that they aren't making it a complex concept.
I understand why many want a different word. Sometimes it is just to be more specific on how they identify and some are obviously sensitive to how they are identified. Any reason is valid. But I have seen many eyes glaze over when you start talking gender queer, gender variant, gender neutral..... My daughter told me the toughest part of telling her was talking about the "spectrum". She said she lost me there.
So I think that using more defining terms within ourselves can be okay as we understand the differences. If we try and bring it to the public, I think we will do ourselves a disservice.
It's a perfectly good word. I am happy and proud to be transgendered!
I like having an umbrella term like transgender, but unfortunately labels are more often used to constrain our thinking rather than broaden them. I heard a story on the radio today about how the different parts of the brain are involved in language. When we hear a word we create a mental image. When we hear the expression "when pigs fly", we form a mental image of a pig with wings, or maybe a pig with a superman like cape. So it is natural I guess when people hear transgender to think of a specific type of person instead of a broad category.
I've worked at several companies and finally decided I don't like having a job title. At times I've been a contractor, so there was really no need for a title. When you dump the title people no longer just assume what you do, the have to understand your particular role. At a recent job I started without a title but eventually the company grew to where they hired an HR person who insisted we all have job titles. Because of my salary level they decided I had to have "manager" in my title even though I didn't have anyone to manage? But soon it became expected that I should so they gave me an intern to manage! All because of a title. A job title constrains you, not having one frees you.
What if I told you I was an artist? I'll bet your next question would be along the lines of "what kind of artist?". The broad category of artist just doesn't give you enough information. Am I a painter, sculptor, musician, web site designer? So what good does it do for me to use the term transgender? I'd just have to qualify it with a more specific term later.
So transgendered is fine for taking about that broad group of people, as long as the people you are talking to understand the broad meaning, but it is not a useful term for describing a specific person.
We've had numerous discussion of "trans-this" versus "trans-that" on this site, but the issue of Nathalie's post was why we don't refer to ourselves more as "transgender" rather than "crossdresser". I think the reason is the general confusion in the public's mind about these terms. Witness the national attention given to children who are raised in the gender they identify with, rather than their birth gender. They are almost always refered to as "transgendered" rather than "transsexual" -- so the public perception is that "transgendered" implies wanting to be full-time in the opposite gender. Obviously that does not apply to many of us, which may explain our reluctance to use the term.
Me, I happily embrace both TG and CD!
Last edited by Claire Cook; 05-03-2013 at 07:27 AM.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Proud member of the Lacey Leigh Fan Club
Maybe the reason for the public's confusion is that it is an ill-fitted term? Like trying to squeeze my feet into non-wide heels...
Last edited by Lorileah; 05-03-2013 at 10:29 AM. Reason: you don't have to quote the post directly above yours
I am not who you think I am
Hi Nathalie, I prefer Crossdresser Transgendered sounds way to clinical and serious.
Having my ears triple pierced is AWESOME, ~~......
I can explain it to you, But I can't comprehend it for you !
If at first you don't succeed, Then Skydiving isn't for you.
Be careful what you wish for, Once you ring a bell , you just can't Un-Ring it !! !!
It's amazing how one word can cause so much conflict. If somebody needs to know I'll tell them my label. I'll file this under the who cares? category.
I think you've nailed it! For me (and almost all of my TS friends) there's no issue with the word "transgender". It seems to flow a little better than "transsexual" and by now the public has conflated the two terms. And from what I read in the responses to this post crossdressers aren't very fond of the term. And now I see why!
I think the word "transgender" is going to go the way of "transvestite", a term that was once descriptive, useful and accurate but is now regarded as too clinical and passé.
I think that as those who have been traditionally covered by the umbrella further define themselves this, too, shall pass.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
Posting Permissions
