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Thread: Compromises to save a mariage

  1. #51
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    I sometimes wonder where I fit in this whole mess. I may be able to live a bi-gendered life. But I know how hard it would be to do so. Living in the middle would be very difficult and confusing to those I interact with daily. I believe for me the best solution is to transition fully and then let the chips fall where they will. At least for me I will no longer have to hide and in the end it will be less confusing to those I come into contact with. I do not care what or how people want to characterized me. I am living my life the way I think is best for me and for me it is authentic. Lynn will have to find her own way. Having a spouse certainly complicates things. Actually for my wife and I navigating a new way to relate to each other has been proving to be very difficult. To date it has been the most difficult issue in this whole process. Disclosing to clients, family, friends and employees has been a cakewalk compared to forging a new relationship dynamic. Where will we end up is either of our guesses, but our communication as never been more open, candid or honest. I wish Lynn well in her pursuit of inner peace and contentment. Lynn and her wife need to develop and as all couples with trans issues, the trust, candidness, openness, and honest conversation skills to facilitate a new relationship dynamic.

    I Identify with Melissa's term Transitioner, as it best describes me at this point in my life. I can also understand the anger those that have transitioned or are transitioning have against those that say they are ts but are dreaming or fence sitting. The latter have no skin in the game. Those of us that made the decision to take action and actively transition have made real sacrifices, And in many cases have suffered true loss to be who they are destined to be.

    No transitioning is not undertaken by a brave individual, but by one that has run out of options. We all face fears and I know I have for years. It finally reached a point I had to battle those fears and take action. My biggest fear losing the love of my wife has materialized and I have no more fears left. You may think you are ts and if in your mind you find solace, who am I to say otherwise. But you can see how not taking action would bother those of us that have or are actively transitioning deal daily with the challenges of attaining our true nature in spite of the odds against us. It is hard for me to consider someone that is dreaming or fence sitting taking absolutely no action of any kind whining about their angst seriously.

    What was it Roosevelt said "The only thing we have ot fear is fear itself"
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    Last edited by stefan37; 05-09-2013 at 08:12 AM.
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  2. #52
    Silver Member kittypw GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie47 View Post
    I suspect your wife is also totally stressed out. She has the same issues about finance and raising kids. On the flip sides she is sitting there stressed out because her husband wants to transition to a woman. All these restrictions she wants to impose on you are her attempt, however futile, to understand what's going on and save her marriage. Does she understand a person's desire to transition? I would venture to say she is totally confused. She does not know how to proceed. There's always two sides to the story. Your post is only conveying one side of the story. Maybe counseling will help. I suspect it will not. Once she understands who you are and who she is, she'll be better able to make rational choices. Don't stay together for the sake of the children. They will survive better than living in a home full of marital disharmony.
    I will guarantee that your wife is probably more stressed out than you. I very much agree with Stephanie. Your wife doesn't have a clue about you because you don't either. This is a very painful situation and your are just prolonging the lie by agreeing to such demands. You need some intense counseling and please for the sake of your family Set them free. Be the hero, be honest. I see a divorce in the near future. The way you handle it now will impact not only the divorce, custody and co-parenting. You need to become a stable person ASAP.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 05-09-2013 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Quote trimmed

  3. #53
    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostalady View Post
    A transexual is what you are not what you do.
    I don't have a quarrel with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by STACY B
    At least there is social acceptance in being a drunk in our world. Hell I was good at it too.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    there is also a transition for people who don't want to go that far so that they can still be who they are meant to be, which is somewhere in the middle if they cannot see themselves divorcing their wives, losing their jobs, and having their penises removed. This is what my SO did. And in the process she has determined that she is not a guy nor is she a full time female. And she is OK with it.
    With all respect, Reine, what you are describing is not transition.

    My point was that one doesn't transition (really transition, that is) in order to find out they are a woman. That's nonsensical. One comes to that realization to be brought to the point of transition. I recognize that a few - very few - non-TS also transition for a variety of reasons, but I wasn't referring to such in my comment.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 05-09-2013 at 10:20 AM. Reason: quote trimmed
    I am older than I once was,
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  5. #55
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    I agree that you need to get a handle on yourself, as hard as that is to do, and I've been there honey. If you think you have problems to deal with now I can tell you that adding a contentious divorce and all the drama that accompanies it will make everything much worse, and impact how difficult transition will be for you in ways you might not realize right now.
    "In our lives, change is unavoidable, loss is unavoidable. In the adaptability and ease with which we experience change, lies our happiness and freedom."

    "My actual gender identity emerged as I healed from the scars of childhood not because of those scars" - Kelly J

  6. #56
    Minority of One Lynnmorgan451's Avatar
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    Sooooooooooo if I'm only wanting to transition to the point of NOT cutting off my soldier, then I'm not a transsexual? I mean, regardless, I wouldn't be on this website if I wasn't having issues coping with a gender confusion of sorts. I mean, I am not willing, at this point in my life, to destroy a family, divorce an awesome woman and leave three children without a father, and because I can't afford to transition either I must not be transexual?? I haven't had the opportunity to live as a woman for a year for obviously the same reasons, but that doesn't define anything either. I know what I am inside and out. I am a girl with a penis. I don't even have a masculine body, never did, and I've always had manboobs even before I started hormones, so It wasn't even like I was really trapped in the wrong body, except for that one dangling detail.
    I know I WANT to be seen as a woman. I want to look in the mirror everyday and see me looking as cute as I can in age appropriate female clothes. I want my hair to grow out the way it was pretty much my whole life. I want to be accepted by the people who are closest to me. I want to go to work and school and have people hold doors for me and tell me I look pretty or compliment my outfit!
    My wants are wishes. Some plausible, some not. But overall I know that in my mind and in my life right now the way things have to be, I am in stealth mode...Like a reverse stealth mode. A woman pretending to be a man in order to preserve the greater good. You gotta do what you gotta do and right now this is my life, and this is what I have to do. I'm going to be leaning on you all a lot in the next few months. I can tell already after 4 days without wearing panties or shaving my legs that I'm going to need you all more than I ever thought I did before. So, THANK YOU ALL for being here because you define my existence!!!!

    xoxo
    Morgan Lynn Scatterbrain

  7. #57
    Silver Member Annaliese's Avatar
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    It show you love your wife, but does she love you to put you through this, you say " I am not in prison or a mental Institution" your not, everything you do is controlled even who you communicate with here without supervision. That sound like prison to me, and to stop being who you are, you will need the mental institution.
    This is a Compromises to save a marriage it sound like you gave up everything who you are and what did she give up.
    Last edited by Annaliese; 05-09-2013 at 11:20 AM.

  8. #58
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Lynn, what you describe would certainly make you transgender, but that is not the same as transsexual. Whether you are also TS is partly for you to discover through therapy that will help you to ask yourself the correct questions.

    A major distinction between transgender (including Gender Nonconforming according to WPATH) is the desire to have Gender Confirmation Surgery - often referred to as SRS (wrongly imnsho).
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

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  9. #59
    Minority of One Lynnmorgan451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    A major distinction between transgender (including Gender Nonconforming according to WPATH) is the desire to have Gender Confirmation Surgery - often referred to as SRS (wrongly imnsho).
    I looked at that benjamin scale thingy and its just too vague to be accurate. If I had to choose a level though, based on the way I feel I would put me at IV. Maybe. Idk. If I had millions of dollars I would be on HRT the rest of my life, I would get an orchiectomy, breast implants, a shave of the ole' adams apple and maybe a lil face stretch cuz I have a big scar on my forehead I dont like too much. I mean, I don't wanna have "it" cut off because primarily I am afraid of the complications and relearning how to pee, how to get pleasure from sex IF I could ever get pleasure from sex again. I think theres a 30% chance or something?

    NOW if there was a MAGIC SPELL that could change me into an ACTUAL GG then HOLY CANOLI batman GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE!!!!
    Morgan Lynn Scatterbrain

  10. #60
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    My $0.02, (and worth every penny)

    Hi Lynn,
    You have restarted the old discussion as to whether someone who wants "some" HRT or GRS is really TS or TG, or crazy. As for me, I am on HRT and would opt for an "orchi" but nothing more. Why, because that would satisfy several medical, hormonal, and persona-problems and would be accepted by my wife. She is OK with HRT, in fact she loves the new, more-mellow me it has produced.

    The Benjamin scale is intentionally vague because it is a "psychological profile", there is no TG-gene that can be tested for, just as there is no gay-gene. I do not consider myself TS, but I feel I am TG and somewhere near the upper end of the scale. I see that "attraction to men (homosexual feelings)" is a big part of the scale, well I have no interest in men; and almost none in women either. The scale is not a 1:1 mapping. I have seen folks here argue for and against the Benjamin scale and almost as passionately for, or against the WPATH guidelines; and not always in accord with the points. The curious fact is that Harry Benjamin is responsible for both, and both are now quite old.

    Medical opinions and protocols evolve with greater understanding and, especially in gender identity issues, the field is still far from settled. I realize this gives no good "answers" but I fear there are none to be had. Everyone is different and everyone's circumstance is different, you have to find your own path. However it is essential that you do it in a safe (medically supervised) and considerate manner.

    Good luck and hugs,
    Sandra1746

  11. #61
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    With all respect, Reine, what you are describing is not transition.

    My point was that one doesn't transition (really transition, that is) in order to find out they are a woman. That's nonsensical. One comes to that realization to be brought to the point of transition. I recognize that a few - very few - non-TS also transition for a variety of reasons, but I wasn't referring to such in my comment.
    I agree Lea, it's not transition as is defined and necessary for transsexuals to align their bodies to their internal genders. And it's also true that (most) people don't transition just to see if it fits, just as most gender variants don't come out as bigender publicly just to see how that fits either. Unfortunately, because not many people understand the concept of a gender that is neither purely male or female, they do not have any other language to describe themselves than TS even if their concept of transition is to wear dresses every day, and this is confusing for the people who knew without a shadow of a doubt when they were children, that they were not the gender their parents thought they were as it is confusing for the gender-variants' SOs.

    It's not nonsensical though. It's a different way and in my view a necessary way to look at, or acknowledge the validity of a state of being that moves from the purely male that is currently condoned and accepted in our rather strict society, to a place that is publicly in the middle between male and female. This is rather a big change and the person who described this I though did a good job. It validates the MtFs who are not transwomen but who are neither males nor fetish or hobby crossdressers.

    I ricocheted off your comment, I wasn't wanting to restate what you said in my own words.

    Edit - Really, there are lots of different kinds of transitions. There's the transition from child to adult, from single to married and vice-versa, to describe the color gray as a pathway from black to white, etc. The word is not strictly used in a TS sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    Not every TS woman transitions...
    This is true. Of course there are people who cannot have SRS for medical or financial reasons perhaps, but they do live 24/7 as women with legal name changes, don't they? To do otherwise would be devastating to them. If, however, they are happy with their choices to continue to live as male even if they dress part time, can they really say that they are women? This doesn't make sense either to me.
    Last edited by ReineD; 05-09-2013 at 01:06 PM. Reason: added response to Kaitlyn
    Reine

  12. #62
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    Hi Lynn,
    Please stop saying "cutting it off," "having it cut off," and other permutations. SRS does not involve "cutting off" the "little soldier" or "wang" (your expressions). Also, they remove the catheter five days or so after surgery, and relearning to pee takes about 5 minutes. As for the 30%, I personnaly don't know any trans person who was not sensate afterwards, and I know at least a hundred of post-ops.

  13. #63
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    These rules were made with the expectation that either you would break them and she could leave you or you would be so miserable, you would suggest leaving (which is what I think she is looking for so that she does not appear to be the bad guy...you will be the one who walks out..not her).

    I agree with everyone above, this is a train wreck waiting to happen.
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  14. #64
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    I haven't had the opportunity to live as a woman for a year for obviously the same reasons, but that doesn't define anything either. I know what I am inside and out. I am a girl with a penis.
    You don't have to live as a woman full-time to get a better sense of what you might like to do in the long run. My SO also questioned who she was and she determined to become just as active socially as herself as he had been. At the same time he didn't want to lose his job, so she had the freedom to go out frequently as herself, just not in her own backyard. After having done this for several years, every week and several times per week, plus having taken a week here and a weekend there to go somewhere and be herself for the entire time, she did determine that she was not TS and by that we mean that she has no wish to alter her body in any way, or have a legal name change, or live full time even. But, she didn't really know that until she had lots, and I mean TONS of outings under her belt to everywhere ... errands, restaurants, hiking, shopping, shows, galleries, and a slew of other places that we all go to.

    Also, girls don't have penises. There are genetic men who choose to live as men, who are very feminine and who have penises, but they are not TS. They are called gender-variant. My SO is like you and she is not fully male either. There is a thread in this section that describes this, you should read it ... Kathryn Martin's thread about being broken (even though it's not really about being broken ).

    EDIT - So as I was saying, you should stop telling your wife that you are TS if you want more freedom to go out and see what it's all about over the long-term, since she likely has the same definition of TS as I did before I ever knew my SO. I took TS to mean someone who no longer wanted to live male with male body parts in any way. I suspect this is why your wife is being so strict. She's wanting to hang on to her husband because in her heart she doesn't believe that you are a woman, even though I'm sure that she does acknowledge your femininity. There's a huge difference between the two. Sorry if this is harsh, but you did say that you want to continue living as a male.
    Last edited by ReineD; 05-09-2013 at 01:25 PM.
    Reine

  15. #65
    Minority of One Lynnmorgan451's Avatar
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    I don't WANT to continue living as male, I HAVE to.....and...you said earlier that I'm passable?? :-D
    I agree with you though about telling my wife I'm TS.....she is probably scared that I want SRS which I.........don't??? Maybe?? Ummm ....grrrrr......I just don't know...which is why I put myself around level four....I know it's not "cutting off" it gets dissected and repurposed BUT......I just ....it's like LASIK eye surgery....it's a great idea, but I think I'll wait until they got a better method than just cutting your eyes to ribbons with a laser.....I'm not smart enough to use the right words here I don't think... :-p
    Morgan Lynn Scatterbrain

  16. #66
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    I think you are doing the right thing and should keep living as male.

  17. #67
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Sandra, if you define 8 months as "quite old", what constitutes "quite recent"?
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  18. #68
    Silver Member kittypw GG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annaliese View Post
    .
    This is a Compromises to save a marriage it sound like you gave up everything who you are and what did she give up.
    I can't believe that you had the nerve to say that. What did she give up? How about a stress free marriage with a man, the father of her children. She shouldn't have to juggle everything that comes with children and a husband who is a stressed out problem. What women goes into a marriage with a man and thinks that he will drop this kind of bomb on her? After you have 3 children? Again remember there are always two sides to every story. I don't think Lynn's wife deserves a spot under the buss.

  19. #69
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    re Rianna...

    If your question wasn't directed to me; my apologies.
    From a GOOGLE search the Benjamin Scale seems to date from 1966 and the WPATH guidelines were first published in 1977, although they have been updated recently. This was the nature of my "quite old" comment.

    Best regards,
    Sandra1746

  20. #70
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    But you do want to continue living as a male. You do not want to take any actions to change the course of your life. Hormones are relatively inexpensive, other than lab work and doctor visits, so that excuse is out. But if you make the decision to start hrt, that will put your marriage in jeopardy. You have some hard decisions to make in the next few months about the direction of your life. you also need to start a serious candid discussion with your wife about your goals and ask her what her goals are? From your previous posts and the conditions she has imposed and as Reine said it may sound harsh but I do not see a successful resolution. And I doubt if you had a million dollars all your fears will disappear you will start to transition. All the reasons you give not to transition will still be valid regardless how much money you have. Yes money does make getting surgeries easier to obtain, but the hard work needed to transition along with the courage and resolve can not be gained because one has money. To the contrary those with easy access to money skipping the necessary steps to determine if transition is right many times regret their decision and poison the public perception of those that do need to transition and do so successfully.

    Transition is serious business and there is a very real possibility there will be lots of emotional pain and losses. You can think of yourself in any way you want, but to continue to live and present as male will mean you are a woman in your own head and the world will never see your authentic self. Your authentic self will never be reflected back, so how will that help relive your anguish? Good luck you are in for a bumpy ride.

    I agree with Kitty that Lynn's wife does not deserve blame in this. She did not sign up for what she is going through. Raising 3 young children coupled with the uncertainty of her future would certainly put most of us in a stressful state. This is not about somebody wanting to only cross dress and live as a male with no thought process of taking it further. It is about a spouse declaring she is transsexual but not knowing to what extent she want to transition to. There are a few couple on this forum that are still together, this forum aside I personally know no transitioned woman in or out of my support group that is still married. The odds are against it. The best course of action would be the transitioning individual to give their spouse the space needed for their spouse to reach a comfort level of their own. It will not be easy and their will tons of anger and emotional distress, but it the only fair course of action for the non transitioning partner.
    Last edited by stefan37; 05-09-2013 at 02:54 PM.
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

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  21. #71
    Junior Princess Ruby B's Avatar
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    If you truly love someone, don't you accept them for who they are?

  22. #72
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    Easy for us to say the we accept them for what they are. But it is not that simple. A female that is not wired internally to feel attraction to other females will feel repulsed with the idea of loving and sleeping with a female partner. The fact that the transitioning partner will change physically, mentally, emotionally will change the relationship dynamic. My wife still loves me and I her, it is the major reason we are still navigating a resolution to stay together. But we will never be sexually intimate and intimate physical contact at this time is limited. She married a man and that man is no more. She feels very uncomfortable around me and how people think about her and us. She struggles wrapping her head around why a middle aged male would want to change gender. We sleep in separate rooms. I no longer burden her with my issues and when she feels the need she brings the topic up and we discuss it. She is really trying to understand and has been getting involved with others in similar circumstances. Support for wives with transitioning or transitioned husbands is scarce. We do not know how we will resolve our issues, but our conversations lately have been devoid of emotion, candid, honest and we are communicating on a level far higher than at any time in our 33+ year relationship.
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

    "Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation

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  23. #73
    Minority of One Lynnmorgan451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby B View Post
    If you truly love someone, don't you accept them for who they are?
    Of course.....unless one day the other person comes bursting out of the closet as someone TOTALLY different and of the opposite sex....surprise!!!! But it's still me!! I promise!! Thanks for the dress! :-/
    Morgan Lynn Scatterbrain

  24. #74
    John JohannaH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby B View Post
    If you truly love someone, don't you accept them for who they are?
    When a person born physically as male undergoes M2F HRT the body scent changes, there is redistribution of body fat, development of breasts, and the skin becomes softer. My wife also tells me I now have feminine gestures and mannerisms. In fact once I have been given a wolf whistle from a young man while looking at my girlish butt.

    Those are HUGE changes, Fortunately in my case my wife suggested my going on the HRT and wants me to continue. So I can see Lynne, your wife could have issues with going on M2F HRT.

    John
    John - Please use my legal name John. I also prefer masculine pronouns referring to myself.
    Been on M2F HRT for over 8 years
    Don't mind if I am addressed as Sir or Ma'am as long as I am treated with respect.
    Just don't call me "Maggot".

  25. #75
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    If you truly love someone, dont you accept them for not accepting who you are?

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