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Thread: Are transsexuals broken?

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    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Are transsexuals broken?

    Yesterday, somewhere else a question arose whether transsexuals are "broken".

    There were very strong opinions expressed that transsexuals are not broken but rather form a part of some spectrum or continuum ranging from one gender to the other and are therefore simply a variance within biological expression.
    People felt very strongly that they were not "broken" and that using such a term contributed to the marginalization and dehumanization of transsexuals. Others equated "broken" with "wrong". This gave me pause to consider this in context. You see I actually believe that being transsexual means that you are "broken". I mean this in the following sense. This does not apply to gender variant persons.

    Transsexualism is the presence of primary and secondary sex markers that do not match the self experienced body image (see V S Ramachandran 2007 Occurrence of phantom genitalia after gender
    reassignment surgery). We don't suffer from GID or more recently re-termed GD but in some cases from situational depression associated with this disparity. That is why surgery and hormones "fixes" the condition. Our condition is outside any spectrum or continuum of gender variance, because transsexuals do not have a variance in their gender which for them is essentially defined by the gender binary (with each pole of the binary encompassing a varied expression that is still considered within norms.) In this sense transsexuals are "broken" or suffer from a medical condition which has a medical resolution to it.

    Gender Variance is a culture spawned psychiatric condition that is rooted in non-conformance to cultural norms surrounding gender and it's societal rejection.

    Cultural acceptance of gender non-conforming behavior does nothing for transsexuals in terms of their underlying condition.

    Maybe we can discuss this with resorting to thread closure.
    Last edited by Kathryn Martin; 05-06-2013 at 06:02 PM. Reason: addition to clarify
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    I agree with your usage of the word "broken." I agree with it even considering that it is a natural variation that appears with some frequency. That is, that transsexuals are "broken," "not right," "wrong" even, in the same sense as someone who is born with a cleft palate. They are not mentally disordered, less than, or psychologically damaged apart from whatever life may have inflicted by way of coping and secondary effects such as the depression you mention. I regard transsexualism as an intersexed condition.

    Unfortunately, clarity on this isn't helped by the fact that many trans people ARE damaged and broken in a variety of ways not directly caused by being transsexual. Repression, suppression, rejection and ridicule, abuse, and discrimination produce a lot of human wreckage. All unnecessary.

    Finally, there is nothing about corrective surgery (SRS) that the average cisgendered person does not regard as extreme. This alone leads many to think that transsexuals MUST be disordered.
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    Minority of One Lynnmorgan451's Avatar
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    When I hear this "broken" talk it makes me wonder why we consider ourselves this way....just thinking like its a cultural norm to express ones birth gender is "right" but it's only been "wrong" to be considered transsexual for a short time...transsexuals in history were considered Demi gods and healers in various cultures..since I really have no idea what I'm talking about I will share a link I found that makes me feel just a wee bit better than I did before I read it..

    http://www.transsexual.org/cherish.html

    Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other. This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!

    I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....
    Morgan Lynn Scatterbrain

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    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Broken....? I don't know. Wounded...?...certainly.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    heaven sent celeste26's Avatar
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    On the other hand, if there is nothing broken then why even offer a fix?? Ignoring of course our society's penchant for abusing anyone who is slightly different. Why isn't a female gendered male a perfectly valid expression without the need for surgery? (yeah a heresy here I'll bet)
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    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    When I hear this "broken" talk it makes me wonder why we consider ourselves this way....
    Well, I am definitely not part of that particular "we". I don't consider myself (nor any other TS) broken. I'm just fine. All I needed was a little surgery to set some things right that were amiss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other.
    I was not interested in transformation, but in transition. And I'm sorry that you think that everyone who doesn't believe as you do, that we all ought to be genderfluid, is in denial. Glad you're not MY therapist!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....
    Suit yourself. But that doesn't make everyone else in denial.
    Last edited by Eryn; 05-06-2013 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Response to troll removed. It might be satisfying to respond, but all it does is give the troll the recognition they want.
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    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    "Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other."


    Whoever created us also gave us the drive to change ourselves, was that not also intentional? Maybe we were meant to work at correcting this.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other. This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!

    I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....

    Please define "total transformation." Also, you talk about not displeasing some creator, and then state later that you are afraid of surgery. You may have all sorts of reasons for staying in between, but please don't infer our motives for "picking a side."

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    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    I understand what you are trying to say Kathryn. I do not consider myself broken, however reading your post carefully I can see where you are coming from. I would disagree about situational depression. I have only suffered depression once that I know and at the time I did not know I was depressed and it had nothing to do with gender. I have suffered severe anxiety that was paralyzing at times. HRT so far has provided relief from severe anxiety. I also disagree that societal acceptance of gender variance does nothing for transsexuals condition. greater societal acceptance of gender variance would certainly make it easier for those that are transsexual to seek help sooner and also make it easier to ease fears of transition.

    I could probably live a genderfluid life, but have found it very difficult to live in the middle. I am in the process of active transition and will progress as rapidly as nature and resources permit.

    I wonder Lynn how your personal situation trying to save your marriage influences your views on transsexualism and gender fluidity.
    Last edited by Sandra; 05-07-2013 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Removed comment member is now banned
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    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial.

    I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....
    Your take on the fully transitioned ( surgery etc) is interesting. When you chose " both" was it by circumstance or design? Something that you wanted or something you had to settle for because of your circumstances. Are the transitioned really in denial or are you?
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    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!.
    Really? You're making judgments about people that have risked everything just to be free of pretension. Nothing personal but the words of someone who hasn't even begun the work of transition mean nothing or less to the people who experience the slings and arrows of our outrageous decision every single day.

    Perhaps when you are no longer prohibited from shaving your face, you may be more amenable to picking a side.


    Kathryn, I happen to agree with you all the way on this one. I do feel broken and I always have. I live an authentic life now, and I can see a time when I will be largely stealth, but I will always have been born a man. My spirit was born broken and a lifetime of trying to reconcile my issues has broken me emotionally. I will never be a normal person. I will never know the feeling of being CIS. I was an outsider as a male, and now I'm an outsider for an entirely different reason.

    I am and have always been a misfit toy. I have learned to find happiness, but that doesn't mean I'm not broken. Though, this is the only way I know.
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    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    I strongly agree with Lea that it is a intersexed condition and for me the binary is an aspect of nature, not a creation of humankind. In my opinion there is no binary outside of nature.

    Reproduction is the reason for two sexes and the female and male brain evolved accordingly along these lines and this has huge implications for the experience of transsexuality.

    The binary is reproduction but reproduction results in a certain psychological state of being independant of the body so the brain has a binary just as the body does for reproductive purposes.

    Each sex has certain psychological abilities that are more prevalent in one over the other and each sex because of the structure of the brain, experiences and perceives of reality that are in ways unique to their sex.

    For mammals the female brain is the template that is changed into male by the actions of hormones, particularly testosterone.

    In my opinion something disrupts this process in the womb for transsexuals so the brain is not masculinized but the body does change enough to be considered male but even the body will show evidence even though it varies from person to person. The body will show intersexed markers.

    Some external markers may be digit ratio, reverse hair whorl, proponderance of left handedness,higher incidence of genital deformity such as Peyronie's disease and Hypospadias, insulin insensitivity,ect... but there are many significant statistical variations that consistantly show up for transsexuals showing a biological basis for gender dysphoria.

    Every day more evidence is accumulating showing that transsexuals have brain structures similar to females.

    This is why you can spot it in childhood because it affects how children play with each other. Their childhood preferences such as avoiding boys and preferring to play with "other girls" and even toy selection or the way toys are used. It has a theme or common thread to it even though each story is unique

    I have felt broken because society and my body pushed me into impossible circumstances for my brain to cope with from my earliest memories all the way up until I understood the problem and stopped trying to be what I am not according to others and started being what I am according to me.

    Many of the psychological problems of those born with "genital deformities" so were surgically assigned female at birth because it is easier to digg a hole than build a pole (this is the reasoning and words of the medical community) are exactly the same for transsexuals.

    This is why the medical community is finally waking up and not assigning gender through surgery anymore. They realize gender takes place in the brain not the body.

    The reason I identify as female is because I find me in other females but not 98% of the men I have ever met.

    My brain works like a females and I look at men and wonder what planet they come from and it has been this way since I was two or three years old. I like them but have known that I'm not one of them and they are not one of me.

    This is something fundamental to who I am, it goes deep within me and cannot be altered by my will power.

    In my opinion self experienced body image is biologically determined by the binary of the sexes as an expression of nature for reproductive purposes that dictates the physical structure and capacities of the female brain versus the male brain.

    You adopt a female identity because your brain is female and you find yourself in other females so identify with them and know yourself through girls (woman) but not boys (men).

    This can result in feeling broken on a social level because you are forced outside of society because we enter society through our bodies. The physical body does not reflect how you know yourself to be and you cannot live through it without experiencing discomfort so you are always uneasy in your own body.

    I have always lived with the sensation that I'm living outside my body and looking at it from another persons perspective like an observer alongside or from above. It is a form of being constantly self conscious about the physical self but once my body made sense to my mind by changing it I stopped feeling self conscious and watching myself from outside myself.

    Being constantly self consciuous like this was hugely stressful and exhausting and nothing I tried would stop it until I physically changed my body and than I relaxed.

    The hormones the body produces will not be suitable for the brain structure because the brain and hormones are diametrically opposed to each other so you are being fueled by that which makes you act against your natural tendencies born from the structure of your brain so you experience testosterone anxiety and mental confusion.

    And in my opinion in some way on some level it will screw with your sexuality for the same reason the hormones do not make sense to the brain.

    For me being transsexual made everything about the world "opposite" how it should be. Everything was "backwards" , "off" , "out of sync", "square peg round hole" , ect..

    The brain and body need to be aligned in all things born out of reproduction, which is just about everything in society because culture came out of nature.

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    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
    I live an authentic life now, and I can see a time when I will be largely stealth
    Not to derail the thread, but it's interesting that you might progress toward stealth rather than away. This probably only catches my attention because I seem to be heading toward a more open and out life than the stealth life I have lived up until now.

    I digress. Probably a better topic for another thread.
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  14. #14
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other. This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!

    I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....
    So just to get this right transsexuals who transition are in denial of the intentions of their creator, while society forces them to be men or women. You are both a man and a woman, but a girly one with an external organ who wants to dress like a girl while hating needles, pain or anything else that goes with surgery. Oh honey you should thank your creator that you are not a girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle.M View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but it's interesting that you might progress toward stealth rather than away.
    Not a derail in my view at all but rather a function of being healed or fixed if you will. This is what happens after you have laid the complete foundation through full transition. As integration and I mean real integration happens we submerge into a normal life. Our medical history is no longer witnessed and our environment will mirror back our true nature. It is something that happens as a result of healing not something that we do.
    Last edited by Kathryn Martin; 05-06-2013 at 07:39 PM.
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    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    I highly doubt it will be possible for me to be stealth as I am transitioning in the town I have lived in for 25 years. I have my own business and will be transitioning in place and view of my employees, clients, etc. I do have hope that some day I will be able to assimilate into society or as Kathryn put it integration, and those that do not know me now will not know different.
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    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Kathryn
    You nailed it!
    Sorry I just don't get the advantages of being " out and proud". I am not knocking it I just get why being seen as a transsexual is appealing to some.
    Last edited by kellycan27; 05-06-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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    New Member JamiLee's Avatar
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    It may just be me, but I don't want to be seen as a transexual, therefore I'm not broken. I'm a woman, period. I'd be way happier being seen as a woman, just like any of the other woman out there. I guess it's why the T on LGBT is so important to me. Lol, the LG & B will be happy with everyone knowing who they are, but I feel like the T want's to live in anonymity. This anonymity makes it hard to voice our support for our brothers and sisters, but being apart of a larger group lets us voice our support to one another while trying to be the gender we want. I hope that makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other.
    You know, I hate this BS line more all the time. First of all, who are you to declare the mind, will, and intentions of God? (Or "Whomever") Especially as it pertains to someone else? Second, this never applies to anything else, like people born with heart defects, spina bifida, degenerative conditions, bad eyesight, or a million other things. After all, isn't it evident that God intended them to die young, be in pain, not see, or whatever Whomever baked into their special design?

    But because you've decided that "being both" is God's will, you're entitled to criticize everyone else? What if *I* decide that it's evident that you are supposed to be a guy, that it is YOU who are violating Whomever's will? Moreover, what are you doing wearing clothes? Weren't you born naked? And don't give me Adam and Eve - God gave THEM skins, not polyester.

    This isn't the religion forum. Arguments from design are religious arguments. If you have anything rational to add, please do.
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    trans punk Badtranny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    As integration and I mean real integration happens we submerge into a normal life. Our medical history is no longer witnessed and our environment will mirror back our true nature. It is something that happens as a result of healing not something that we do.
    Yes I'm on-board with that but I should clarify that I see a time when I will have the ability to LOOK stealth. I don't see actually being stealth in my future because I did transition in place and everybody in my industry knows I used to be a dude. I also have 40+ years of life as a dude behind me, so unless I move across the country, there will always be somebody around who "knows".

    More important for me is not being 'read'. Ever.

    I know I'm broken, I just don't want the cracks to show.
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    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Are transexuals broken? Dunno, a lot are broke with the costs of HRT, therapists, SRS, loss of employment.....
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

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    @ Lynn, I don't know how you came up with the idea that a postop (now woman) could be in denial? It makes no sense at all. I think you need to educate yourself about what being a transsexual is all about. Google is your friend.

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    Girl Next Door KatieTaylorTX's Avatar
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    Good evening. It is odd that you used the term "Wrong" as well as "Broken*. I have used the term "Wrong" when describing myself for many years. I believe that those two terms, while speaking from a biological point of view, may not reflect a true definition of being TG. Now, with THAT being said, we are more than just cells, we are human beings who as sad as this may sound, don't truly have a "Fix" IMHO. Sure, HRT and SRS are in my opinion, band-aids at best. Societal acceptance for "Our Kind" is limited at best. It is sad really, how many TGs are "Forced" into the sex industry, or worse, commit the most agreegious of things...suicide. Statistics don't lie. Of course we suffer from depression... how could we not? Humans want/need affection. It has been proven in apes that ones deprived of touching and being touched by other monkies become deeply depressed. Why would we think we are any different? So, are we "Broken" or "Wrong" the answer lies in the hands of the people that define us... and at this point, most in society feel we are indeed "Broken" or "Wrong", so that is right or wrongly, what we are saddled with. I for one, cannot "Fix" society... even though my one wish, is that I had been born "Right" either way, male or female.

  23. #23
    Minority of One Lynnmorgan451's Avatar
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    Aren't we all individuals here? On different paths with similar circumstances? I didn't intend to piss anyone off. If what I said makes you angry then it's probably not the only thing you've ever heard that drums up anger in your heart. I wasn't trying to compete for trannyist I was just making an observation from my own individual unique perspective based on the information I have collected. I am on a path of transition that may. Just end short of getting parts removed. But the me of today is definitely not exactly the same as the me of yesterday or tomorrow. Was just saying the link I posted inspired a thought that made me a little more comfortable with who and what I am. Wasn't making judgements. Who am I to judge anyone!?! Pleeez
    Morgan Lynn Scatterbrain

  24. #24
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    no, we're not broken. Aside from all the excellent philosophical reasons given by the other posters let's remember that it is a subjective thing, a judgement. All it takes to end that accusation is to show that you're clearly not broken.
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    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    when i read the word broken in the other post...i projected meaning into it...i would be very curious to know what she meant by "broken"...specifically.
    it could have been a much more casual use of the word than i felt..

    to me, when a cisgender person calls a ts person "broken" they are not interested in scientific facts or whether this is a medical condition....they don't care why..and in that word they are not thinking about what you do about it..
    there is no fix.. it doesnt matter if we transition or not..... at least not as it relates to the idea of thinking we are broken.....
    its not that your vagina is broken because its shaped like a penis...its that by your very nature you are broken, you are a worse person that those that arent broken...
    ..and whether you fix it or not doesnt change the wrongness of you..

    Pls dont get me wrong.. i think women that transition are amazing testaments to the strength of the human spirit..we stand up and face a world that considers us broken, each in our own way..passing or not..
    I think women that dont transition for whatever reason are also strong in their own way, and I do not envy the daily struggle because I endured it for 40+ years..its amazing that we can function at any level at all, yet many of us raise families and fill our lives with accomplishments

    .. i'm saying this is how we are internalized by a person that views us as broken..

    I enjoy passing priviledge, which amazes me...thank you dr meltzer, you are a fricking genius.....so i don't ever feel the sting of this anymore...but i don't see how that's relevant to the concept of broken..the idea that my past is no longer visible others is simply a boon to my own life quality..people that view transsexuals as broken would say the same of me...

    +++++
    lynn I for one am not pissed, i read your comments with interest and i dont think you are judging others as much as you are simply struggling.... some of the things you are saying from the heart are not coming through loud and clear and i think you are actually in denial of how this is all going to end up for you and yours..ie ..not well...
    people that have successfully transitioned and live as women are not trying be the trannyist...but they are the ones that are living the TRUEST to their nature... and that's the nature the creator gave us...if its true that a person is bi-gendered or feels fluidity in their gender, that is their nature

    it seems to me that living true to your own nature , whatever that is, is the best chance each of us has for the highest quality of life...this is why relationships prior to resolving the gender issue are so difficult...how can you find love and feel love if you are not being true to your nature...how can you feel love from someone that feels your nature is broken?

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