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Thread: Are transsexuals broken?

  1. #76
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    Reine and Kathryn I think you make an excellent point, because how we view this question and it's implications is contingent on our understanding of gender variance and it's degrees. Although we use the term gender identity I think we all know it's a lot more complex than just whether your switch is set to M or F, that's just a simple way of dealing with it for conversation's sake that only accurately describes a small segment of the entire population. I recently read this article by Bushong and he proposes a mesh theory of gender that although it is more complicated and doesn't provide easy labels I think it helps understand the situation better. By breaking down one's sense of individual gender into three categories it allows for a model that predicts what we see in the real world. If applied correctly I think it could be used by folks to help them decide how far they want to change their role towards their preferred gender role while balancing against the discomfort that is felt by folks who transition farther than perhaps they should have.

    http://www.transgendercare.com/guida..._is_gender.htm
    "In our lives, change is unavoidable, loss is unavoidable. In the adaptability and ease with which we experience change, lies our happiness and freedom."

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  2. #77
    Silver Member kellycan27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    Kelly - yes, but I believe this thread largely fulfills the intentions of the OP. There's room for both types of discussion.
    Agreed.... There's room for both discussions and opinions... Even mine.
    "one day I'll fly away..... leave all this to yesterday"

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  3. #78
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    ... Just saying.
    I just did!!!!!
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellycan27 View Post
    Information overload! IMHO this thread has turned into an exercise in intellect. I just don't see how all this information and complex explanations are going to helpful to people who are really struggling ( for the most part) with the very basics of being transsexual to begin with.
    The point is, Kelly, that some people say that are transsexual when they really mean they are gender-variant. They accurately do not feel they are men in the sense that our society defines men, but they would be no happier living as women full time either because this would mean greater losses than they could bear, or they are not willing to alter their bodies and live full time with a legal name change. So I see this thread as an attempt to not necessarily help transsexuals to transition, but to help people who straddle the concept to realize there is a lot more to this than just being a guy who likes to wear dresses, or being a woman who has been given the wrong body.

    Edit - ... and to help everyone realize that EVERY single point on the vast gender ID line is perfectly valid. There is no point that is less than or more than any other point even though the graphic representation of a line is continuous. The way that I see it is more like a lot of random dots all over inside a circle in terms of how valid are the various forms of gender identity.
    Last edited by ReineD; 05-10-2013 at 11:06 AM.
    Reine

  5. #80
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    Reine, I also don't know how you take a thread (or at least the OP) from a question of whether *transsexuals* are broken, to an intent of "help[ing] people who straddle the concept ... (etc.)" That's particularly true - I believe - with Kathryn, as she is well-known for making a bright-line distinction between transsexuals and gender-variant people.

    I agree with your point on the validity of all identities. I just don't understand its relevance to this thread.

    I know this isn't a thread about transsexual definitions, but ANY definition starts with the persistent identification of the gender opposite to that corresponding with their birth sex. For a natal male, that's identification as a woman, not as a "not-man."

    This IS a thread about transition, in a way. Boiling it to its essence, Kathryn implies that a judgement-neutral view of "broken" reduces the problem to a physical fix. A goodly portion of her point is additionally that the psychological symptoms are (therefore) secondary. This suggests that approaching the problem in this way creates some distance from the psychological, acceptance, and adjustment issues, allowing relief to focus on THE problem. I haven't validated this with Kathryn, but I would bet it's close. Further, given Kathryn's prior statements on gender-variance and transsexuality, I would hazard the guess that she regards someone who never CAN see or feel the need for the physical correction (regardless of whether they are able), should be focusing on their gender issue and not worrying about whether they are transsexual.

    [edit] Oh, and I'll eat my words if I'm wrong ...
    Last edited by LeaP; 05-10-2013 at 12:25 PM.
    Lea

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    [edit] Oh, and I'll eat my words if I'm wrong ...
    I hope your reading comprehension skills are better than your math skills, Lea.

  7. #82
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Lea, you are entirely correct. I see the problems that arise with psychologists and psychiatrists and their patients flailing around because there is no appropriate line drawn between the two conditions. Gender Variant persons really need to focus on the acceptance aspect more than anything else. I would suggest that gender variant persons have an entirely different path in both preparation and transition than a transsexual. There are many overlapping areas. By using transsexualism as a "medical justification" for the acceptance of their condition gender variant persons both deflect society from the real issues facing those who experience variance and pre-program outcomes that in a majority of cases are unwanted but driven by the belief that being able to medically justify what they need they will gain acceptance. The problem lies then with so called non-op women. ( and I do not talk about transsexuals who are truly prevented from surgery because of genuine provable medical issues).

    Women in general have a healthy resistance to "women" that don't have vaginas but in fact have penises. This is not a civil rights issue but a direct outflow from this falsely claimed diagnosis. It especially prevents, in my view, the necessary learning that society needs to understand that variance is a culture bound health issue.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  8. #83
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    I agree with your point on the validity of all identities. I just don't understand its relevance to this thread.
    Lea, I began by addressing the beginning of the following quote, and then expanding on it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    Cultural acceptance of gender non-conforming behavior does nothing for transsexuals in terms of their underlying condition.
    Kathryn was making a distinction between gender non-corformists and transsexuals, and I was focusing more on the gender non-conformists.

    I think that what I've written is relevant to this thread and the TS section simply because we often have people who post here thinking they are TS when their definitions of TS are entirely different than yours and Kathryn's. I don't think it hurts to help people understand who they are and the way to do this is to value them just as much as TSs are valued in this community.
    Reine

  9. #84
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    That's fair, Reine. Again, I don't think it's a matter of valuing people. Rather, I think conflating the two conditions in the forum constantly helps create and perpetuate a problem.
    Lea

  10. #85
    heaven sent celeste26's Avatar
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    In these PC days where everyone's self esteem is protected no matter how one wants to present oneself it is A OK with those who are the PC police. One goal in therapy is to get everyone to accept them self for who they are. So for those whose self esteem and acceptance is up to approved levels the remaining question is there any need for surgical procedures? We don't fix things that are A OK do we?

    On the other hand, comfort levels and such are a gauge of our feelings, something very real to us as individuals but hardly scientifically detectable. Even that wonderful feeling of finally being "at right with the world" is ephemeral, can be the ultimate result of properly done surgery but it really exists in the mind not the body. Unfortunately we have no surgery for the mind (and no, lobotomy was not a surgery of the mind.)
    Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. Mark Twain

  11. #86
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeste26 View Post
    One goal in therapy is to get everyone to accept them self for who they are. So for those whose self esteem and acceptance is up to approved levels the remaining question is there any need for surgical procedures? We don't fix things that are A OK do we?
    The problem is when you have accepted yourself and you step out into the world, is the world going to accept you?

    You know, if everything is A ok then for God's sake don't touch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a completely insane thing to mutilate a perfectly A ok body!!!!!!!!!!
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  12. #87
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    Ouch! I thought mutilation only referred to one trying to cut their own penis off?

  13. #88
    heaven sent celeste26's Avatar
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    How many other groups have had to deal with prejudice of some sort or another?

    The original peoples of this continent (we erroneously called them Indians) were killed off, their languages were taken away, their children were taken away, and they were told to live in areas where the land just could not sustain them and all we have to deal with is our feelings don't quite match our bodies. It is just a matter of perspective isn't it? Mainly it is our own selves which do the real damage to ourselves.
    Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. Mark Twain

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post
    Again, I don't think it's a matter of valuing people. Rather, I think conflating the two conditions in the forum constantly helps create and perpetuate a problem.
    I agree. I by no means intended to put everyone in the same proverbial boat.

    The problem is that many of the gender non-conformists do not feel they belong in the CD section since internally they do not feel they are men. I don't blame them, since panty threads don't address their needs. And some of the transwomen feel as if any talk of non level V or VI transsexualism does not belong here. It's a quandary.
    Reine

  15. #90
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    All thats needed is a "transgender" section

  16. #91
    between worlds... steftoday's Avatar
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    I'd apply for that section.
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  17. #92
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    @ Reine I started a new thread based on the Benjamin scale just to get everybodies take on it. Oh... and Arbon I think somebody already asked for a Transgender forum to be created.

  18. #93
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    The TS forum would have 11 people in it if it was ts only...oops thats safe haven...

    I think that's kind of the point of the whole thread in some ways...

  19. #94
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Lol, I would have guessed 5..... and all those that are on their way
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  20. #95
    Gold Member Marleena's Avatar
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    *bows to the chosen ones*

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele View Post
    The TS forum would have 11 people in it if it was ts only...oops thats safe haven....
    Which is why I don't think an exclusive forum is necessary or productive. I like a big open public forum, I just wish the mods would hold the line a little better on CD issues vs actual transitioning issues.

    I mean, how long before people start insisting they are actually transitioning but they just haven't come out to anyone yet? The whole self identification thing can slide into absurdity quite easily. The forum should make a distinction so that only bonafide TS issues are discussed in the TS forum.

    ...and this has nothing to do with me or any of the other TS mouthpieces, I just think that new TS questioners should be able to distinguish between the forums. I mean come on, if under-dressing and making deals with the wife are recurring themes in this section, than what's the difference?
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  22. #97
    Minority of One Lynnmorgan451's Avatar
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    Thou art not tranny enough. Sorry but I'm not a cd or a transvestite. I guess I don't belong here either. Sorry for posting my issues as they are not at a high enough tranny level for this forum. Won't happen again
    Morgan Lynn Scatterbrain

  23. #98
    Silver Member kerrianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    The problem is when you have accepted yourself and you step out into the world, is the world going to accept you?

    You know, if everything is A ok then for God's sake don't touch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a completely insane thing to mutilate a perfectly A ok body!!!!!!!!!!
    Who the f* cares if the world accepts me? I know that sounds facetious Kathryn, or maybe the word is flippant - because obviously one does care, but I spent my whole life worrying about what people would think of me or how they would accept me. The point is, there will always be some people who like ME and some people who don't. It's not my problem. My only problem is if I like me. If I don't then the whole world could adore me and I'd just think they're all stupid for doing so and I would merrily continue to ruin my own life.

    And I do not consider GRS to be mutilation. I'm not sure why you would even use that word, even in irony? Or??? I mean, is that what it seemed to you like? I know it feels that way in a sense, but then every single change you make to your body can be called mutilating it. If you cut your hair you are messing with your body's natural process right?

    mu·ti·late (mytl-t)
    tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates
    1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
    2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
    3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

    Sorry, but I shudder to think anyone would ascribe those conditions to my GRS. It was a cosmetic change or modification I made, and for the betterment of my own self.

    Funny enough I was telling Carol today about how someone I have been good friends with a long time once made the mutilation comment in this very section. It didn't go over too well.

    I mean, you can think that and say it even, but it's your opinion. I don't share it at all.

  24. #99
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnmorgan451 View Post
    Thou art not tranny enough. Sorry but I'm not a cd or a transvestite. I guess I don't belong here either. Sorry for posting my issues as they are not at a high enough tranny level for this forum. Won't happen again
    It has nothing to do with how tranny or not someone is. The transsexual forum is geared towards those that are actively transitioning. There is a crossdressing forum that would be the place for all other posts. Lynn you stated in another thread about a gadzillion reasons why you will not or cannot give up your male attributes. You can think of yourself in any way you want and if you find solace that is fine. But those of us that are actively transitioning have made the decision that to live as a male can be no more and giving up our male attributes and privileges is a necessary action to achieve our authentic self.

    Those of us in a marital relationship face much different issues than those that are single. I try to compromise with my wife in an attempt to make her more comfortable. The one non-negotiable is I am transitioning and I will do whatever I have to to accomplish that. We now sleep in separate rooms. How long we stay together or in the same house is unknown. We have been having the most candid, honest conversations than we ever have in our 30 years of marriage.

    The point of this forum is to discuss issues we as active transitioners face daily. We are not afraid of leaving the home as a woman. We are not afraid of interacting with other people or if our neighbors know. My neighbor the other day asked if I had a cold, I told him I was fine I was changing my voice. The majority of us have lost marriages or the dynamic has changed significantly and we no longer sleep in the same room or have intimate physical contact. The relationship is more platonic. There are those started transition but have found a comfort level that suits them, and they are happy to compromise with their wives at whatever level makes them happy. They do not post how unfair it is they cannot transition because of the demands of their wives.

    Although I identified as a crossdresser, I could not relate to the what color are your panties or where do you hide your stash posts. I found i was more comfortable in this forum. I thought my entire life I might be transsexual and I never had the courage to confront it. But because I was not actively transitioning I could not call my a transsexual but I would call myself a crossdressers or a more benign term that has become popular transgender. My anxiety reached a level I could no longer mitigate my inner urge to feminize my self. I started to actively transition and have been diagnosed by a medical professional as transsexual to start HRT.

    We have in the past year had those that felt they were transsexual come into the forum and stir up a bunch of crap because to be honest their issues and opinions belonged more in the cd forum than the ts forum. We had a lot of very knowledgeable members get banned, quit and for me I miss their input. I am glad that those farther along than I are still here to give valuable advice about how to proceed or what to expect.

    We have a group now that has started actively transitioning within the past year, myself included.We all face very similar issues about health on hormones and effects, marital strife and ways to deal with it. Work issues, personal interactions with friends and families and the list goes on.

    I come here to find answers to my issues or what issues I can expect to experience. Others come here to find their answers also and when they get the answers they need, but take no action to act and come back time and time again whoa is me and I cannot take that first step. Well for me that cheapens the forum and in my opinion not what this forum was created for.
    Last edited by stefan37; 05-12-2013 at 05:29 AM.
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  25. #100
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    Stefan - so well put, I never have the patience to post such a long one, but I really think you've got it in one


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