Semantics.............. DOMA is the Fed's " dog in the fight". They may say... Okay you can call yourself a woman, but just try and apply for any federally funded programs designed for women. Try getting an SBA loan as a woman. You can't file a joint tax return with your husband nor can you take advantage of the married deduction. The list goes on. Why? Because the fed does not recognize sex change as valid. Simply saying it does nothing.
Last edited by kellycan27; 05-23-2013 at 05:46 PM.
Again, I would refer anyone to an attorney in the state in which they reside. For Washingtonians there is an excellent pamphlet by the ACLU of Washington which describes the procedures for changing name and gender identifiers on state and federal documents. The short answer is the starting point is going to be the state of jurisdiction. The pamphlet also outlines some of the pitfall for not changing all documents. As an example, it indicates the State Department will change the sex on a passport, but, it usually will rubber stamp over the original gender rather than issuing a new passport. That would really be interesting in trying to get into such enlightened places on earth such as Saudi Arabia and Iran.
As to others states, you need to consult an attorney practicing in that state. In Washington State, which allows same sex marriage, these changes are fairly easy.
Well, you are married and I'm not, so I defer to you on this.Originally Posted by kellycan27
While your advice that people seek competent legal advice in their own jurisdictions is valid, the question has to do with Social Security. This is not a state issue, and the SSA rules are uniform nationwide.
Nonsense. How old is this pamphlet? I have a new passport, good for 10 years, with all of the correct information including gender marker.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
I am also a licensed CPA and well versed in federal tax law. I was married in New Hampshire which is a same sex marriage state, but still bound by federal law. The Fed does not recognize my " legal" state marriage as a valid marriage between one man and one woman. They suck! LOL
One more reason (as if I needed one) why I defer to you on the issue of federal recognition of gender change.
But while we're on the subject, do you think the repeal of DOMA (and I am certain this is coming soon) will change that?
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
Hopefully it will change some things especially in the way we pay our Federal taxes. Once the Fed gives us our props I don't think it will be long before at least some of the states follow suit. I am not so sure that the demise of DOMA will be all that helpful in securing federal aid program benefits, but it might take us a step closer. We still won't be considered women with all the bells and whistles. The repeal of DOMA would be a step in the right direction and would allow us to move to the next step in the fight.
Last edited by kellycan27; 05-23-2013 at 06:23 PM.
When it comes to the feds, if something is to THEIR benefit, they are all over it. If it isn't then suddenly they have a problem.
It takes a true Erin to be a pain in the assatar.
Around here I doubt any of them know anything about any of this.
But other trans women who have gone through it and knew how to do this and that were great. For the most part none of it was that hard to figure out. On this thread I got the answers I needed, a lot cheaper then seeing some lawyer.
It really is this simple:
Name
Gender
As for the letter stating that surgery was completed, they accepted a letter from my doctor (I was pre-op and had only done HRT), that was basically this:
Physician’s Letterhead
(With Physician’s Name, Address and Telephone Number and medical license/certificate number, the issuing state of the license/certificate and the doctor’s DEA registration number)
Today’s Date
To whom it may concern:
I, Dr. I.M. Doctor, M.D., a practicing physician, certify that [your FULL girl name] with the DOB January 1, 1901 and SSN 123-45-6789 and [your state] Driver’s License number xxxxxxxx is a transsexual patient of mine currently under my treatment for the neuroendocrinological condition associated with transsexualism. She has received the proper clinical and irreversible medical treatment for transition to her new female gender, and I currently continue to serve as her physician overseeing her care and treatment.
I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States that the forgoing is true and correct.
//Signature//
I.M Doctor, M.D.
Last edited by Michelle.M; 05-23-2013 at 08:12 PM.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
Just for clarification and my own edification... I'm post-op MTF btw... and...
Even though I have changed my name and gender with the SSA... and my name and gender on all my other legal docs... the SSA still has me listed as male somewhere in their system?
And if I do get married to another biological male... that would be considered a same sex marriage under current SSA guidelines?
What would happen if we file a joint return? Would it be denied?
Yes.. The SSA will still show you as male in the system.
Yes... If you marry another biological male it will be considered same sex.
Being in a same sex marriage you are not legally entitled to file a joint income tax return.
"If" the IRS catches you they will most certainly deny your return.
Ethically I can't advise you to do anything contrary to Federal law.
Last edited by kellycan27; 05-26-2013 at 12:26 AM.
You get what you paid for!
OK, now I have a question - my gender has been changed with SSA. Why would they still consider me to be male?
Come on, now! The SSA gives specific instructions on their own website for accomplishing this. It's merely an administrative task, not a legal issue. Why are you so adamant about hiring an attorney to get some simple paperwork done?
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for hiring a lawyer and not trying to do legal stuff on your own, but this is nothing more than filling out a form and attaching some supporting documents.
Last edited by Michelle.M; 05-26-2013 at 08:49 AM.
I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.
Why? Because I am a retired federal bureaucrat with over thirty years of service administering tax law and reviewing related state law as appropriate to whatever issue I may have been charged with administering at the time.
I've read through all the posts and I have read misinformation and pure conjecture on some of the issues that have arisen here. Name change issues are fairly straight forward and are made without regard to any gender issues. Transgender issues are complex and are dependent on state law. I went to a transgender website which has the specific state and provincial (Canada) law and requirements to change gender identification. Each state has their own specific procedures and outcome. I noticed only three states require surgery for a change in the gender identifier. However, different states will issue different differing changed birth certificates.
It appears to be relatively easy to approach federal issues. The Social Security Administration and State Department have posted their specific procedures for changing gender identifiers, both for customer usage and internal processing. My concern is not filing out a bureaucratic form. That's easy. It's the process before getting to the simple stuff.
My caution based on thirty plus years of experience is the fact if you do something wrong, sometimes it may be difficult or impossible to make correction.
As to the comment that was made concerning attorneys in a geographic may not have knowledge, well, you do not go to a divorce attorney for corporate tax law. You seek out the advice from someone skilled in an issue.
My comment is directed to the serious issues that arise.
There has been a lot of chatter on this thread concerning DOMA. On its literal reading, DOMA has absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues. I'm sure Congress did not consider transgender issues when it passed the law. Doing some quick research, it appears people changing their gender marker under state and federal law have easier time than gays and lesbians. It's a medical issue rather than a social issue.
There are thirty seven states that have amended their constitutions or passed laws prohibiting same sex marriages. I found none that prohibit changing the gender identifier. As to how a male changing the gender identifier to female plays out in marital law, I would not venture a guess.
My concern is over the failure to adequately research the consequences of legally changing the gender identifier and how it plays out in all aspects of one's life.
Michelle
The simple answer is that the SSA goes by the social security number that you were assigned. They will allow for your gender change but your true birth gender will remain in your file. For the purposes of taxation and social security benefits you will always be considered by your birth gender.
As far as state law I agree with Stephanie47 in that it would be prudent to seek the advice of an attorney as state law varies from state to state as do tax laws. State tax laws for same sex married couples can be a nightmare!
Last edited by kellycan27; 05-26-2013 at 12:33 PM.
Good grief! I don't need to see a freaking lawyer!!
What process???It's the process before getting to the simple stuff.
I've already changed my name on everything and have been legally me for a year now.
Last month my gender marker was changed on my drivers license and I got a new 10 year passport with the correct gender marker.
Well there aren't exactly a lot of ways to do it. Either you change your name and your gender or you don't. What else is there to screw up?My caution based on thirty plus years of experience is the fact if you do something wrong, sometimes it may be difficult or impossible to make correction.
Yes, I did! Without an expensive lawyer which would have been a waste of money!!You get what you paid for!
My question on this thread was pretty simple and straight forward if anyone knew how changing your gender marker with SSA might affect how the SSA and IRS consider your marriage. I got the answer without spending a wad of cash with a lawyer! Thats as far as I want to go with it already.
What if you received a new SS#? Would the new SS# still link back to your original SS# and birth gender?
Arbon, I'm not sure you got the correct advice from Kelly. No legal citations were given as relates to the issues-just conjecture. I had nothing to do for awhile on Sunday morning so I bounced around the Internet. I believe you're in Idaho. From a posting concerning various issues, unless the discussion was wrong, it states Idaho is one of three states (TN & OH) that do NOT change the birth certificate identifier even after SRS. I don't know if that is true. Other states have a procedure for changing the gender identifier on a birth certificate. From the discussions I read the changing of the gender identifier on the birth certificate does allow a MtF post SRS to marry a male. And, be allowed to file a joint income tax return. Is it true? I don't know, but, the discussion is contrary to Kelly's analysis. I don't have any skin in the game. If I did I would have to research the issue thoroughly. The discussion only has one state (Texas) which invalidated a marriage between a MtF post SRS and a male.
Nowhere in this discussion have I seen any legal brief or citations as to whether a post SRS male can marry another male for federal purposes. Just conjecture. I think that's one of the questions that has arisen on this thread.
If anyone has skin in the game. you may want to consult an attorney.
First of all they are not going to issue you a "new" social security number. Your gender change is of no consequence to them.
To them you're still the same as you always were... Just a number.
Filing Federal Tax Returns
The federal government does not recognize same-sex marriage, so married gay and lesbian couples must file as single people on their federal tax returns. Some experts recommend noting on your tax return that you are, in fact, married, but filed as single due to federal tax law. This might help in other contexts -- like applying for a joint mortgage -- where you want to show that you represent yourself as married.
This information is pretty easy to come by.. Just google the federal tax code and in the search box type in same sex marriage.
THE DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE ACT (DOMA)
According to Section 3 of the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), the federal government only respects marriages between a man and a woman. This means that even if a same-sex couple's marriage is recognized by their home state, it is not recognized for the purposes of accessing marriage benefits in federal law. So, for example, a gay married couple in Massachusetts can take advantage of state laws conferring the benefits of marriage, but not any of the benefits provided by federal law.
"There has been a lot of chatter on this thread concerning DOMA. On its literal reading, DOMA has absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues. I'm sure Congress did not consider transgender issues when it passed the law. Doing some quick research, it appears people changing their gender marker under state and federal law have easier time than gays and lesbians. It's a medical issue rather than a social issue."
For something that has nothing to to with TG issues how do you explain the fact that under DOMA our marriages are not recognized by the federal government and the fact that we cannot enjoy the same privileges afforded to cis couples in regards to taxation and federal benefits.... just to name a couple? We may have not been specifically targeted but we are certainly affected by the collateral damage it's caused.
If you went to see a lawyer would you take his word as a qualified professional or would you consider it too as conjecture until you saw the proof of what he was telling you in writing?
From the IRS website:
Q. Can same-sex partners who are legally married for state law purposes file federal tax returns using a married filing jointly or married filing separately status?
A. No. Same-sex partners may not file using a married filing separately or jointly filing status because federal law does not treat same-sex partners as married for federal tax purposes.
Last edited by kellycan27; 05-26-2013 at 05:08 PM. Reason: Merged consecutive posts
I know getting SRS does not come with a new SS#. But people do receive them. Not something that usually happens though. I get that.
Now the part you quoted from the IRS site, I also understand. But my understanding, takes it to mean gay and lesbian couples... two male or two female persons. Not a postop MTF who has changed all docs including a birth certificate married to a cis-male.
I'm surprised no one has challenged this yet openly with the IRS or SSA (for survivor benefits), because it seems that from everything I've gone thru, once you have changed everything you should be seen in all aspects of the law as a female... or more specifically, there should be no difference between a postop MTF and a cis-female... at least for all legal, tax, marital, matters. Now people can always try to claim otherwise in court after the fact. But there shouldn't be any exclusionary language or provisions as far as the law goes.
Same with DOMA. There is zero reference to or mention of trans people at all. Same-sex couples... yes. But I doubt any postop MTF married to a cis-male couple would choose to identify with that grouping.
This looks to be one big gray area with no clear definition one way or the other.
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 05-27-2013 at 02:56 AM. Reason: Excessive quote trimmed
It is possible to get a new social security number under certain circumstances, but... Your new number will be linked to your old number in their records.
The reason that they don't mention transsexuals is because they do not recognize your sex change. You remain a biological male in the eyes of the gov't. I suppose that the prevailing logic is that if one biological male marries another biological male... They're gay. ( or lesbian in the case of a f2m marrying another female)
Well that sucks.
Looks like someone needs to educate the system.
Last edited by Rianna Humble; 05-27-2013 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Please do not quote the whole preceding post just to add a few words of reply
Last year, when I changed my name, I visited the Social Security office for a new card. I was told that they would change the gender on my records AFTER surgery. So, on their records I am still listed as male atm.
Steph
I am currently female to the IRS, Social Security, and Indiana... and still legally married. Rule of thumb i for a sex change in a marriage is that in order for it to become invalid and lose all of the married benefits, either me or my spouse would have to contest in court or divorce. I could not find a single case in which the state or federal government invalidated a legal marriage due to sex change. There might be one out there, but I could not find it. We also filed our taxes jointly and filed jointly in federal bankruptcy court due to our sons medical bills. I believe as long as you can prove it was legal, you have nothing to worry about.
Once in awhile, right in the middle of an ordinary life, love gives us a fairytale.
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