Trans Turing Test

[bas1985]

hello,

I know, I am strongly fearful of going into the wrong path and I resist with all my forces to the idea of being a TS. But, deeply inside, I know that I AM a woman, the only question is if I should give to myself a coherent body or if I can cope still pretending to be a man.

In the meantime I have invented a sort of test, I called it the Turing Trans Test which in my view should help some MTFs to better realize their status.

In this test we have the following setup.

Control group is a jury of 10-15 GF which are in a room, room A.

In room B we have the man which may be TS to be examined

in room C we have a straight man

in room D we have a GF

all the rooms are connected using a chat (only text, no voice and no web cams)

The three people are told that they should answer their question in this way: the normal man should try to fake a woman, the woman should answer normally, the man to be examined should also try to fake a woman (but he is already a "she" so the simulation should be better, this is the test itself).

The jury has a predetermined time to examine each one of the people (maybe only one of the jury has the keyboard, the others simply read the answers, the emoticons, the pauses, etc...).

At the end the jury must decide which is the woman, the man and the man which may be a TS.

Then we list the results of the jury. I expect that a real woman has no trouble in de-masking the man which simulates the woman, but if a good percentage of women is unsure on which is the real woman and the "maybe" TS than we may say that the TS is really a TS (at least in the brain).


The test can be repeated in a different scenario


This time the jury is composed of only men.

In room A we have the Ts to be examined.

in room B we have a woman

in room C we have a man

This time it is the woman who must try to fake the answers of the men, and also the man to be examined is told to answer the questions as manly as possible.

(The man in room C must respond naturally, as a man...).

Also in this case the men, I suppose, will soon decide which is the man of the three. In this case, if the man are undecided on which is the woman on the other two than that means that either the woman and the TS answer in a way which is too feminine and confuses the men which do not know which is the real woman and which is the TS.

If the men instead all point to the woman than it is clear that the man and the TS have responded more likely and so the TS is NOT a ts, but he is a male.


Well, it may be only a joke, but I wanted to share with you... now I am returning to study the other posts... hoping that my ships stays afloat.

[LeaP]

Useless for any but the earliest (childhood) transitioners.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Very interesting so you have some good actors that can stand in for you. & what if the Judge see's a woman yet shows a maleness about them selfs,
because i know some men would be flumixed they would not know because the body langage wouild be very mixed with out a definate male or female .

Iv seen some face to face & pic's youd struggle to tell male or female,

oh well a thought,

...noeleena...

[bas1985]

Yes, you are right.

My thought was in some way to have something more valuable than COGIATI.

I scored 230 something (probably ts) on that test but I also looked at some other posts that say (rightfully) that
it is a self fullfilling test, in fact I retook it some days after and scored very differently because I wanted
to be seen as a not TS.

Well, I know that only myself can answer the question but sometimes it's desirable to have an objective
diagnosis, given that being TS is a life changing condition (or, better, finally accepting that you were always
a TS but denied it).

Back to study...

[sandra-leigh]

There were a bunch of questions on COGIATI about reactions to various events like the phone ringing, or locating sounds.

Do I act faster than most people to answer the phone? In my observation, Yes, so that's what I have to mark. But do I act fast on an any kind of absolute scale? No! I'm merely the person that looks around while the phone rings a few times, sees that no-one else is going to get off their butt, so I go and answer it. Like if the phone is in a lab across the hall and someone keeps calling and letting it ring a dozen times: it is distracting, and I go to get it out of the way. I don't have a faster reaction to sounds, a more acute hunting instinct: I just have a lower threshold to being disturbed by repetitive noises (especially bass rumbling.)

Am I better than average at sound location? Again, by observation it seems I am; I often get approximate location not "quickly" but while average people are still struggling. But I would never qualify as a "birder" !!

I don't think I am "good" in either of these skills; I am, at best, a little better than the average city folks who never bothered to pay much attention. But that's not what the COGIATI asks about.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sorry you are wasting your time on a pipe dream that there is some test, some right/wrong answer, or some clue other than the reality of your fundamental identity

the fundamental nature of your identity is an objective standard!!! It's the ONLY objective standard in fact..
but you must tear down lots of walls to see it....those tests wont help you do that, they will only waste your time and energy

[StaceyJane]

That sounds like an awfully complicated test. Really, if you are TS you will know it in your heart. All you have to do is listen to what your heart tells you.

[Barbara Ella]

Always interesting to see academic exercises like this, and discuss what might or might not occur. I must agree, however, that for this question, the heart already knows. The problem is first getting the mind to listen to the heart, and then for the brain to process what it hears and accept the result, and formulating an action plan. The easy part is the heart, the remainder is the hard sell.

Barbara

[bas1985]

Yes, in my case the "problem" is that my male conditioning to cope with the GDI which I surely have -- to some degree -- (I know it by heart now) has come up with an intricate and over rational mind.

I have learnt maths well, I am an engineer, fairly successful in my job, but... this is not me!

I know it. I always knew it... maybe some one of you can sympathize with this feeling of
ruthlessness of myself toward myself. A question of life and death. The male part had to win, otherwise
all the normal life (having a marriage, kids, pretending to be normal) would be destroyed.

The war was merciless, cruel and did make real sorrow also on other people.

But this goes off topic.

The fact is that my male part, agonizing, is still alive and wants a proof.

"Tell me you are a woman and I will go."

Fact and figures.

No heart and soul. Tests and measurements, you are not going to follow your heart on that?

I hope to have conveyed a little my feelings (sorry English not my mother tongue).

[stefan37]

I had asked my therapist the question. How do I know this to be true and not a fantasy. He responded and it is really very simple, "if she exists and I allow it she will come out" . Key phrase there is will you allow it?

[Beth-Lock]

As far as I know, the original Turing test did not specify a specific dialogue or script. So what about random conversation?

For example, listening to a random conversation of MTF TS around the diner table of the convalescent residence in Montreal, a year ago, half having just had SRS and the others to have it in a day or two, if blindfolded, I could have sworn I was listening to a bunch of 14 year old boys trying to gross each other out! (And yes, one was an engineer I think.) I was shocked that they, who were supposed to be trying to be girls, like for the rest of their lives, could be so unladylike. I was also personally disgusted and I did not want to hear what they were saying.

Yes, in my case the "problem" is that my male conditioning to cope with the GDI which I surely have -- to some degree -- (I know it by heart now) has come up with an intricate and over rational mind. .

Or, you are just thinking like a woman. an intellectual one, but a woman. I have noticed this in feminist thought.

The fact is that my male part, agonizing, is still alive and wants a proof.

"Tell me you are a woman and I will go."

Fact and figures.

No heart and soul. Tests and measurements, you are not going to follow your heart on that?
.

Problem is self-awareness in gender identity goes in parallel, to a certain extent, with committing more and more, to live as a woman. Both being aware of being a woman and growing into being a woman, are neither orderly processes nor mainly rational ones.

But that said, it is better to go into it with intelligence. It is just that your intelligence will not give you the right answer.

[Barbara Ella]

OMG Beth. How in the world could you ever think an engineer would do this??????? I am mortified, truly...heehee.


Barbara

[mary something]

You said in your post that you KNOW you are a woman inside. If this is true then no amount of outside proof will either discredit this feeling or bolster it for very long. Nice job referencing Alan Turing though

If it helps I can tell you what finally resolved this issue for me, and I wrestled with it for many years. My strongest desire for my entire life has been to understand myself. The pursuit of my truth has led me to many different places intellectually and emotionally, however the study of buddhism is what really helped me to achieve clarity.

I believe there is powerful truth in the quote that the secret to happiness is to not want. I believed for many years that the wanting that I felt so intensely, that haunted me was a barrier to my happiness and so I tried to make that part of me go away. No matter what I did the feeling that my life was wrong and empty, that I needed to transition stayed with me.

I eventually learned I couldn't get rid of this feeling. Perhaps it would wax and wane somewhat at times, but it was always there. Then I reached the part of my journey where I needed to justify rationally what my heart was telling my mind. Your Turing test sounds like something I would have dreamt of lol. How much of your inner dialog is about gender?

Some time after I resigned myself to acknowledging that I would most likely carry these feelings with me for as long as I lived I reached a new clarity about the Buddha quote from earlier. I had discovered that the only want that I hadn't been able to rid myself of was actually a part of me. I remember incidents from my childhood that confirmed this desire has always been there, even when I was an innocent. I was trying to not be what I am, which is impossible to do very well of course.

I had an impossible want because I wanted to NOT be myself. This was a eureka moment for me, because it finally made sense. I needed to transition to become more true to my identity in order to absolve the want that I felt from not living a life that was true to who I am.

The only way I could achieve happiness was by not wanting to transition anymore. Since I had already tried for years to talk myself out of it and had failed that only left one other option.

[bas1985]

I am just playing the devil's advocate...

not trolling (even if to some I may give this impression. I like debating)

As far as I know, the original Turing test did not specify a specific dialogue or script. So what about random conversation?

Yes. It would be better, and I also thought that the MtF to be examined should not be aware of the current setup, that is if she is going to be examined by women or by men. Because in this way her payoff matrix is indifferent, she has not a "perfect" strategy to follow, but only "be herself". If she wants to pretend to be a female it's OK in the first scenario but does not pay in the second (because the men will point her out quite fast, when in the second scenario her goal is to confuse the men between her and the other GG). Well, other rationalizing. OK!

For example, listening to a random conversation of MTF TS around the diner table of the convalescent residence in Montreal, a year ago, half having just had SRS and the others to have it in a day or two, if blindfolded, I could have sworn I was listening to a bunch of 14 year old boys trying to gross each other out! (And yes, one was an engineer I think.) I was shocked that they, who were supposed to be trying to be girls, like for the rest of their lives, could be so unladylike. I was also personally disgusted and I did not want to hear what they were saying.

I am shocked, but I surely believe you. In a certain sense the genetics is still there. If I watched sports and drank beer as male, my pattern will stay the same after SRS (and also my alcohol resistance...) . So... what is the purpose of transition if my habits will stay the same?

Or, you are just thinking like a woman. an intellectual one, but a woman. I have noticed this in feminist thought.

Touché. That is the point. I tend to go down very deep inside arguments, caring details and hearing all points of view. In the end I make a decision, but first I will try to educate myself better. My presence here is to make an informed decision.

Problem is self-awareness in gender identity goes in parallel, to a certain extent, with committing more and more, to live as a woman. Both being aware of being a woman and growing into being a woman, are neither orderly processes nor mainly rational ones.

But that said, it is better to go into it with intelligence. It is just that your intelligence will not give you the right answer.

Thank you for this piece of advice (and there is no irony in that "thank you"!! ). That is also my current point of view. I am trying to live as a woman as long as possible for me (which is a lot, because I am a developer and I work many hours at home). It's not CD alone (at least this is what I think), because I am not indulging in presenting myself as the "perfect" woman, but as myself as a woman, so wearing everyday things, t-shirts, shorts, as before... but "female".

I had asked my therapist the question. How do I know this to be true and not a fantasy. He responded and it is really very simple, "if she exists and I allow it she will come out" . Key phrase there is will you allow it?

Yes. This is the question. I don't know if I am allowing it, but surely I give to it more time to manifest. The longer I commit to this the longer, if it's real, it will manifest.

The question is (no trolling, just taking the devil's side): "isn't it a self fullfilling?"

There is an adage in computer programming that says:

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

So... if I look like a woman most of the time, I tend to be a woman, talk like a woman in the end probably I will be a woman, but maybe that was not my intention. My intention was to prove to myself I was a woman at the beginning of the test, not at the end...

The test has become the proof itself.

You said in your post that you KNOW you are a woman inside. If this is true then no amount of outside proof will either discredit this feeling or bolster it for very long. Nice job referencing Alan Turing though

thanks Mary for the appreciation. Yes, no amount of proof will either work,
because we are in a field where in the end there is a logic gap that cannot
be fulfilled unless we take a leap of faith.

Like in a Zen koan, or in the Godel proof, where at a certain point we must
choose between completeness and coherency.

If I want complete proof I will be always coherent but I won't finish the proof
before I die. If I make the jump to transition, I will be complete (at least myself), but incoherent, because I have made the jump without proof.

If it helps I can tell you what finally resolved this issue for me, and I wrestled with it for many years. My strongest desire for my entire life has been to understand myself. The pursuit of my truth has led me to many different places intellectually and emotionally, however the study of buddhism is what really helped me to achieve clarity.

Thank you for pointing this out. I also had yesterday a conversation with
a friend of mine (male) a really educated person which has a great knowledge
of buddhism and also ACIM (A course in miracles).

He said to me that the whole issue of Transexualism is inexistent.

Don't take me wrong, it is a serious matter, but as for Buddhism all forms
are transitory than it is not a point whether you have the form of a male
or a form of a female.

He said:

If you want to transition, that's OK. Buddhism says "do not judge" so I won't
judge you, go ahead. If you say to me that you need it because it will make you
"happy" than that will surely disappoint you, because you are trusting that
a "form" (a female body) will give you happiness.

Instead the happiness is inside you.

Well, how can I answer to that? It seems a catch-22 situation.

I believe there is powerful truth in the quote that the secret to happiness is to not want. I believed for many years that the wanting that I felt so intensely, that haunted me was a barrier to my happiness and so I tried to make that part of me go away. No matter what I did the feeling that my life was wrong and empty, that I needed to transition stayed with me.

I understand your point. It is not that I want to be female, but that
I realize that for 40 years I have spent tons of energy to perform a male
role which is not me.

The thing that I cling to is the male side, not the female (which is my
natural self). Is it true?

I eventually learned I couldn't get rid of this feeling. Perhaps it would wax and wane somewhat at times, but it was always there. Then I reached the part of my journey where I needed to justify rationally what my heart was telling my mind. Your Turing test sounds like something I would have dreamt of lol. How much of your inner dialog is about gender?

in the last weeks a lot. In the past years I put the issue aside. There was a
sort of "normality" (marriage, family) but I was not right in that place and
now, after the divorce, I knew the main cause of that...

I wanted to switch role with my wife. I did not think I was the "breadwinner",
that was a role which was not me. I wanted to care the home and the family.

What a nuisance!

The only way I could achieve happiness was by not wanting to transition anymore. Since I had already tried for years to talk myself out of it and had failed that only left one other option.

That is a good start.

I am not deciding to START a transition now. I am deciding to STOP a transition
(from female to male) that I have been doing for so many years.

Given my real self, undisturbed, unquestioned, free, where it will naturally go?
In which polarity? Male or female?

That is probably the real proof.

[mary something]

[MAD]
If you want to transition, that's OK. Buddhism says "do not judge" so I won't
judge you, go ahead. If you say to me that you need it because it will make you
"happy" than that will surely disappoint you, because you are trusting that
a "form" (a female body) will give you happiness.

Instead the happiness is inside you.

Well, how can I answer to that? It seems a catch-22 situation.

Everything he said was true, and was a wise warning to you. If someone transitions who shouldn't then they risk doing severe damage to themselves. Then they actually will become a true transsexual, and live a false life in the wrong body. The reason why is because we all have a need to live our identity.

It's not a want, it's a need.

But remember that gender is not strictly binary even though our culture teaches it is. There are masculine women and feminine men. If you decide that you are feeling a need and not a want, then don't infer too much information from this. It simply means that you need to change your gender presentation to some degree.

I would consider it a clue that you need to consider gender therapy and explore what your needs are. Get dressed and get out of the house, go have fun.

Find out if you enjoy presenting part time as female so you can keep some of the luxuries that society bestows upon males, and less possible upheaval concerning your job, etc.

Meanwhile teach yourself the strategies that will help you handle change better, because no matter your choices you wouldn't be posting here unless you probably did need to change something to be happier.

After doing this ask yourself is this feeling a want or a need. Then follow your friends advice concerning wants. Buddha knew that we would always have needs, and that not fulfilling them would case unhappiness, that is why he used the word want.

[bas1985]

I would consider it a clue that you need to consider gender therapy and explore what your needs are. Get dressed and get out of the house, go have fun.

That is what I will do.

I have called a center here in Italy (Turin) specialized in GD and in transitioning.

I have also written to a local TS self/help group in order to meet and to share experiences.

The center has a long waiting queue so in the meantime I simply try to live as normal as before,
I have resisted 40 years I can resist six months more. In Italy, in any case, the normal protocol is
to have a psychotherapy of at least 6-12 months before you get the OK to start HRT.

Well, I have already done 2 years of therapy but probably it is not valid because it was not
done with a GD specialist (at the time I was not sure about it).

For now this is it.

I will continue to read the forum and keep you updated. Thanks.

[Sandra1746]

From WIKIPEDIA: "The Turing test is a test of a machine's ability to exhibit intelligent behaviour equivalent to, or indistinguishable from, that of an actual human."

Given that the test scenario described is using humans in all cases it isn't a proper application of a Turing Test. IMHO

While the scenario might provide some insight and possibly amusement if the participants choose to answer in a "creative" manner, it won't indicate transgender tendencies in the subject. If you feel that you are transgender, you probably are but the "degree" may be in question. A good thing to do in this case is to consult a reliable therapist and have a chat.

Good luck,
Sandra1746