transexual in the past

[bas1985]

I have found this interesting article, written by a transwoman

transgender in history

I think that for me has been revealing, because, well, it seems that
it can be possible to cope with my sense of being TS IF society is open.

My opinion is in some way that the need for HRT and eventually SRS is in some way correlated
also to the fact that current society is binary gendered.

If I were born 3 centuries ago, or 5 centuries ago... or now but in a poor village
in Africa probably Hrt would not be an option, transition either.

Could I cope with that? Well, yes or no, depending. Maybe the "acceptance" of my strangeness
is in some way related to my strength in coping without transition.

Just some meditation.

[Ann Louise]

Thank you bas - just what an insomniac night-owl like me needed! I'll follow this series, and pass it around. Ann

[bas1985]

ah, yes, Ann... for you it's night, for me it's already a beautiful summer day. hugs

[I Am Paula]

A good read. I'll get to the other parts tonite. Thanks for sharing.

[melissakozak]

A great article to start with, and it makes one realize that our own gender construct and expectations are, in part, determined by society and society's response to transness, so to speak, has a direct impact on the trans identified person. I seriously doubt the suicide rate was high in an accepting society despite the lack of HRT, SRS, etc. Flash forward to today and HRT, etc. is available so that transsexuals can blend in and be less visible and thus, more 'accepted' in his or her preferred target gender. Very interesting....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That was interesting article. I'm certain transsexual people took advantage of whatever the best medical technology was at the time and took advantage of whatever freedom their society allowed

One thing we have in common over the many many years is our "otherness". Acceptance is a word that means different things to different people. If acceptance means being embraced as a basic part of the human gendered existence, we've never truly been accepted except as an "other".. Based on that article many times we were "others" in something that was not a negative way...perhaps some of us were feared, I mean they did the world was flat!

I wonder if modern technology that allows us to blend as in "not others" freaks people out more than in the past where its likely that most of the ts folks were not passable...(think girls about guys that liked you and "found out") or perhaps it was only the young feminine passable transsexuals that were allowed to have the benefit of celebration of their gender status.. that's what happenend in the 40's - 70's as ts women started to actually fully transition legally and physically..it was mostly only the pretty ones..

it would be interesting to know if the positive things highlighted in those articles were limited to the chosen few..

as you can tell, i'm all for a positive light but I would not pine for the past at all..

.I bet there were a lot more shunned transgendered women than priestesses serving leaders.. and I'd bet my house lots more of them were beaten and/or murdered than today..

[mary something]

that was a very interesting article, thanks for posting it.

I thought one of the most important points that the writer made was comparing the experience of gender gifted persons in a matriarchal society vs a patriarchal society.

I believe that is perhaps the root of our problem.

[LeaP]

It's an excellent article, but I think you've overextended your conclusions re: HRT and SRS, if you meant beyond your own needs, that is. History is replete with those who opted for the "surgical" solutions of the time. I have little doubt that they took whatever botanical solutions were understood also, though interestingly, I haven't seen much on that topic. (Good research opportunity.)

The article is broad, truly "transgender" in current usage. I don't think it yields any new insight as to transsexual needs and desires specifically, cultural binary biases notwithstanding.

[bas1985]

Ops, I wrote an answer but apparently was deleted by the browser... I try to summarize my point of view.

Surely TS of that time used what was in her best to "transition", herbal or make up or (ouch!) castration without antibiotics or anesthesia.

The fact is that, probably, at that time was also simpler to "pass". As GG were forced to marry at a young age, a GG at 30 could have had 6-7 pregnancies, no cosmetics breastfeeding and hard work and we could imagine that "female beauty" was a very rare thing to look at.

Now a woman at 50 could, with the help of make up and surgery, look like 20, so for us, TS of the present is very difficult to pass, and that, maybe is also a drive towards HRT and FFS (not speaking about SRS, as it is not visible).

In the past the "tg umbrella" was narrower, probably, because, apart from castration (risky), only cross dressing and maybe some external make up or home made breast forms (no BA surgery, of course, and also no modern bras) could help TS to become "girls". But maybe that was enough, as the comparison was with the women of the time, which were (on average) uglier (no offence intended, but only because beauty was very ephemeral due to illness and hard work).

Maybe... maybe this is only an hypothesis the current drive towards hrt and ffs (and also ba) is also due to the fact that the average GG is prettier, and longer pretty than in the past.

it may be a tautology... don't know, just to share some comments.


PS.

I went for a little walk outside. There is another factor that maybe is different from the past: fashion.

now in summer girls and women go out more or less half naked, with respect to the dressing habits of only
50-60 years ago (in Italy). My mother remembers that at her time (mid 60s) it was forbidden to have a skirt
above knee, and not only cleavage was hidden but also shirts without long sleeves were not used (let alone
tank tops).

I am speaking of "poor people" of course, ordinary day people. So also for this was simpler for TS to "pass".

---

I remember that in Venice there is a bridge called "The breast bridge"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_delle_Tette

(tette is "tits")

in that bridge female prostitutes were supposed to show the breasts because that was the only
way to distinguish real GG from TS. That may be a legend but it says a lot about the easiness to pass...

[LeaP]

I would argue that more limited use of cosmetics (a better description, I think, as the upper classes have always used them) would make it more difficult to pass in the past, not easier. Sex recognition is inbuilt into our species and without cosmetics, most male-bodied people are instantly recognizable from scores of small cues. Cosmetics (and hormones and procedures, of course) change that.

You make a better point with dress, at least in some cultures and in some times - but not all times and not everywhere.

I don't like the implication you are making that TSs would not seek congruence if other options were available. First, you are overstating passing. MANY transitioned trans women do not pass. MANY (socially) transitioned trans women who cannot for a variety of reasons would take hormones, and undergo SRS, FFS, etc. - if they could afford to do so or were not medically prevented. There are some like that in this forum. Given the lengths to which trans women would go in the past (you mentioned castration without anesthesia - which still happens, by the way), the evidence argues that they would have gone as far as possible.

I think you can fairly say that gender variant people would have an easier time of things if society were more tolerant. But I think a transsexual would have transitioned in any age or time. I don't think the gender binary tempts transsexuals to go further than they might otherwise, because they are PART of the binary. I do think some intense crossdressers and fetishists are tempted by procedures, however, as a better way to achieve their ends. Most do not pursue it beyond the fantasy because of the real-world implications.

[celeste26]

There have been and still are some societies around the world which have a third sex with its own acceptance track. In native American culture the term is berdache and they could get married to a man, and they did the work of women but as far as I know they did not have the herbal basis to make any physical changes. And of course the native America biology does not have much facial hair even for their males.

That culture is over 10,000 years old and even though the "whites" have called them savages and all sorts of other names they have a sophisticated culture that is until recently not a written one.

[IamSara]

great article!!!

[noeleena]

Hi,

From what iv worked out from our forums intersex we have about 10.000 intersexed people around the world does not sound many yet i belive we have a lot more who wont because they dont know them self if they are or not, more than likely theres many more who have been killed because they were seen as different in some countys & even to day some of our children are being interfered with so as intersex we dont get any say till after some years & then more sugerys to redo what was done just after birth,

Western socity cant leave well alone, i know some , one who only found out 3 years ago they were intersex & she is 57 had surgerys done never told was hushed up & had more surgerys to redo what was left, i wont say what i would like to say....... i know because theres just no words to explain how i feel about this .

...noeleena...