The physiology of "passing"

[Jenniferathome]

There are a great many threads on the ability of cross dressers to pass as actual women and after making some assumptions as to why I do not pass I did a simple search and found that perhaps my assumptions as to "why" were wrong.

Now, I have long posted that there are a million subtle cues that give away the male dressed as a woman, EVEN IF your attire and gait are flawless. My assumption was that I can hide my body under the right clothing but my jaw line and chin are the give aways that i can't hide or blend away with makeup. So the search I did was "square jawed women." Many beautiful women popped up and they all had square jaws but you'd never, never mistake them for a man. An example is attached.

Now, rather than the jaw line, take notice of the neck in relation to the jaw. Her neck, and all examples I found (100%), clearly starts inside of her jaw outline. To me this was a "eureka!" moment. Most, not all, male examples have necks that align with the jaw outline. Mine does. Now, add in the shape of the trapezius muscle as it runs in to your shoulder, and you get a very distinctive "male shape." From a "head shot" perspective only, this is THE distinctive tell.

So, what's the take away? 1) don't worry about a square jaw or chin. 2) if you want to blend, work on disguising the neck/trapezius (my wife suggested trying scarfs), and 3) get real about our physiology. I do not "pass" but maybe I can confuse. Regardless, you can go out and still have fun.

[Beverley Sims]

Jennifer I like your angle on the subject, especially the part about confusing the issue.
A little bit of subtlety goes a long way.

[Natasha TG]

Well said Jennifer. For some CD's you need to sit back and understand your physique in relation to what makes a GG then use clothing and makeup to compensate (no I do not mean dark sunglasses, scarf and bright red lipstick on a sunny day!).

Some TG's on HRT with the right genetics have the advantage that hormones do a lot of work that soften all features into a femme figure, hips, cheeks, jaw, brow, breasts etc.. That make passing 100%... I for one have been blessed with a combination of my HRT and my mums genetics.. But I am in total admiration on how many CD's on here make beautiful transformations.....

[JenniferR771]

Good point. How do you hide a square jaw, big chin, or big nose? Not to mention a beard shadow and lots of other tells.

However, a good makeup artist can do a lot. "Contouring" is the word they use. Darken the jawline and it tends to recede--visually. There are some good online videos for this. Michelle Phan has a good one.

[Tracii G]

Good observation Jennifer.

[Alice B]

Very enjoyable observation, so I'll have to check mine. That aside, as long as I'm comfortable with myself I'm not concerned as to if I pass or not.I do go out often and am selective as to where.I often engage someone in conversation that I suspect is questioning me and find that allowing them to ask questions results in making a temporary friend.

[Jenniferathome]

Had some troubles with this earlier so here is a re-try.


So, what do you think? Was this a "eureka!" ?

[genevie]

I still think the jaw is the key. I look at that photo and think if you take away the make up and the shaped brows, add a male haircut and then that would look like a guy. When I look at photos here of some that can really pass, they have small chins and narrow jaws.

[Sara Jessica]

So, what do you think? Was this a "eureka!" ?

Nope, but nice try!!!

The other evening I happened upon a show on one of those science channels (Discovery, I think) called "The Science of Sex Appeal. The snippet that I watched, about 5-10 minutes worth, was sooooooo applicable to our world. It showed an experiment where faceless silhouettes were shown to subjects who needed to determine if it was female or male, measured by their eye movements to an image on the screen of a female or male in one of the corners. The bottom line, the waist-to-hip ratio was the tell-tale signifier of gender and ideal was a waist which was 70% of the measurement of the hips.

So lose the jaw, the hips are the key.

I'm off to find my cloth tape to see if I measure up!!!

[busker]

Nope, but nice try!!!

"The Science of Sex Appeal.

It has a lot of other things as well that can apply. If you have a netflix subscription, this is a streaming video. Even in your male attitude, this is an interesting film on how men and women connect and what subtle visual cues are doing to your brain.

[busker]

actually with a male haircut and bushy eyebrows, she could pass for a young man with a female-ish face. Just scroll the picture down to the top of her eyebrows.

[Leona]

Hmm. Not sure how to start.

How about: I see women every day that have men's proportions, and they pass as women. High testosterone women will have little butts, small waists, and huge bellies (if they're obese, that is). Facial features don't seem to matter a lot, I've seen women with deep-sunken eyes like mine that nobody ever asks "is that a man?". I've seen women box-shaped (my wife's box-shaped, actually, but she couldn't pass as a man).

We're asking the wrong questions. We're asking how men can pass as women. We should be asking how WOMEN pass as women.

I've had a eureka moment of sorts considering all the shapes and sizes. I quit aiming for the kind of woman I found attractive and my wife and I started working on matching up my body type to the appropriate clothes sold as a start. I've still got a long ways to go, but from the neck down, I pass, on appearance alone. I have to work on cultivating certain behaviors (I had a girly walk until I was about 19 and a "friend" chastised me for it, so I had to affect a man's walk), but even so I get called a girl jokingly at work for some of the things I do.

So I'm a say don't worry about the features themselves as much as matching them to already-established female body types and then ask yourself how women with those features pass.

(I wrote this mainly because I disagree with the neck line thing. This girl could easily pass as a man from the neck up)

[Sara Jessica]

Sorry but that's a bunch of you-know-what Leona. Rare is the woman who doesn't pass the visual cues that tell us she is in fact female. It's the entirety of a woman's presentation that gets her over the hump, so to speak. In our world, it's the entirety of our presentation that Tells the outside world "trans-whatever".

I think the (great) point of this thread is what is the starting point. Not so much the dead giveaway but what can we do to throw off the Muggles at first glance and beyond.

[docrobbysherry]

I agree with Sara, Jenn. When we r out, people don't see us from our chin to our forehead. They see all of us. And, therein lies the problem!

The photo u posted looks very masculine to me. I believe that could be a male face if I saw the full body.

[Leona]

Sorry but that's a bunch of you-know-what Leona. Rare is the woman who doesn't pass the visual cues that tell us she is in fact female. It's the entirety of a woman's presentation that gets her over the hump, so to speak. In our world, it's the entirety of our presentation that Tells the outside world "trans-whatever".

I think the (great) point of this thread is what is the starting point. Not so much the dead giveaway but what can we do to throw off the Muggles at first glance and beyond.

Can't disagree there, I still don't pass after all. Just throwing my musings on there.

I guess I was aiming for "What are the cues?" They're not all visual. I don't think they're even mostly visual, to be honest. If I were to put a ratio, I'd say 40% visual, 60% other.

Can you pass, out of curiosity?

Ok, got more. In my late 'teens and early 20s, I had to learn how to pass as a man, because I was being mistaken for a woman often, and it wasn't just my long hair. How did I do that, when I was born a boy?

[Beverley Sims]

My philosophy is disguise, disguise, disguise.
Try clothing that takes the eye away from problem areas, I agree the points you have highlighted are quite valid.

[chris80]

Nope, but nice try!!!

The bottom line, the waist-to-hip ratio was the tell-tale signifier of gender and ideal was a waist which was 70% of the measurement of the hips.

So lose the jaw, the hips are the key.

IMHO it is easier to disguise the hip size with fuller skirts, and some slim women have small butts. The face is out in front all the time. Make-up often helps to hide the maleness.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Now my neck is inside my jaw line does not make any difference for me no matter how you look at myself my facial features are masculine i do have some closeups . just had a look theres nothing thatll hide my maleness no makeup not interested, no hair dont care, so what people see is how i am. thats not going to change,

The physlology of passing has passed me by. as we'd say tough biscuts . & as it is theres a very fine line between female & male as you go back to child age for some of us its very blended . just after say 13 to 15 changes take place, yet some women like myself are more male in our look so how do you see that.

i mean it goes both ways, some men are very female looking.

...noeleena...

[TheMissus]

Hi Jennifer, not sure I'm meant to post here as a GG but wanted to say I can usually tell a CD (even before I met my H) and I can't say there was any defining thing. Just a vibe I always got. I think most GG's have this ability but I know for a fact men lack this a little as I remember in my dating heyday heading to a gay bar dressed to the nines (it was the thing to do back then,lol) and I can't count the men who stopped me to ask if I was 'real' because they'd spent hours unintentionally hitting on men. Still makes me chuckle.

Anyway, just what I've noticed.

[Paulacder]

I have ben dressing for some 40+ years. The biggest majority of this time has ben going out in public as Paula. Shopping, Clubbing, Theatre, plus being a member of our local crossdressing support group, so what I'm about to say has ben compiled from years of experience. "Passing" is in your mind. If you go out in public dressed in fem. and while out you get no stares or giggles from passing public don't automaticaly think that you have passed, most of us cannot pass including all 6' 2" of myself. I think the most important thing one can do is to dress to blend. If you do this when people pass they might say to themselfs that was a guy dressed as a woman, he or she , really looked good...........Just my 2 cents..........

[Kate Simmons]

I was never that concerned with it Hon, As you can see, both men and women come in all shapes and sizes. This is why I'm also not too concerned with my voice. I know a lot of women who have much deeper voices than I do for whatever reasons. I more or less just enjoy being myself.

[bobbimo]

Thanks Jenni!
I have been looking at women and trying to figure out just what makes them so identifiable from even 200 ft.
The neck proportion is a good one I hadnt noticed before.
The longer hair styles will help to hide this feature too.
Bobbi

[Sara Jessica]

Can't disagree there, I still don't pass after all. Just throwing my musings on there.

I guess I was aiming for "What are the cues?" They're not all visual. I don't think they're even mostly visual, to be honest. If I were to put a ratio, I'd say 40% visual, 60% other.

Aside from the fact that there are many in these pages who believe that confidence is a key in how we are perceived by others, I would still say that most cues are in fact visual. Confidence can help to improve those cues, especially in the body language department (which is still something that is perceived visually).

Can you pass, out of curiosity?

I don't use the word "pass" to describe myself. The main reason is that passing as a goal is something a person can never be certain they have achieved. I blend into the world around me and for the most part am treated like any other woman. Yet when all is said and done, I have a personal expectation that I have been read by some/most/all(?) that I am trans-whatever (meaning that because I don't wear a label, the Muggles have no idea if I am a CD'er, TS or somewhere in between).

My point in replying to this thread is that if one can throw off the outside world by way of a visual cue (or two, or three), we can pass the visual test at first glance and perhaps a bit beyond. That's not a bad goal to aspire to.

Case in point, I have some naturally feminine body shape to work with but I have learned to play that up in such a way that the theory presented in that "Science of Sex Appeal" show really holds true. My shape tells the casual observer "definitely female" which of course leads to a WTF moment should more scrutiny be applied. But again, most casual contacts in the real world aren't going to go far beyond that first glance, if they do so at all.

Ok, got more. In my late 'teens and early 20s, I had to learn how to pass as a man, because I was being mistaken for a woman often, and it wasn't just my long hair. How did I do that, when I was born a boy?

My hair was quite long as recent as a few months ago before I cut a lot of it off. I got "m'am-ed" in guy mode more times than I can count. The reason was the visual cue of long hair, yet it never took more than a fraction of a second (usually from the moment I opened my mouth) for the person to see the entirety of my presentation which of course would lead to profuse apology. Little did they know that I got quite a kick out of what they said in the first place.

[adrienner99]

Good thread! I see women all the time in jeans, t-shirt and boots that look more "womanly" than I do in lipstick and 3-inch heels. What gives us away varies by body type and features. In my case, I am slender as many women, and am lucky to have small hands, feet and shoulders...But my beard is dark and my eyebrows bushy. But are probably fixable by pros--I just need to make the commitment..

[RachelRICD]

My theory is that if you can create doubt you will do fine. I do not pass but I create enought doubt that people will look but never be sure enough to react. For the most part people are in their own space and don't really observe outsideof it. I live by the adage "If you can't convince 'em, confuse 'em"