Problem With Police

[amandaroberts]

Well today I experienced something very odd. I live in Scotland and find that people here are pretty tolerant. However, today I was out and about for a drive just minding my own business when I was pulled over by the Police.

The reason for pulling me over was the owner and insurance details were showing as a male and they were concerned I was a female driving without insurance. Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm. They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

Then to add icing to the cake they said my details would be placed on the police national computer with a note saying I cross dress.

I am not out to my close friends and family and some of them are in the police, what happens if they decide to check if anyone they know is on file? This is not what I would have expected of police in Scotland. it made me feel so demeaned!

[MadisonL]

I cant even think of anything to say on this. That is absolutely ridiculous. I live in the US so I dont know how the laws are over there but I wouldnt have thought they would be anything like that. I would suggest researching your laws to see if they can actually do this or if they were lying.
Im sorry

[Leah Lynn]

I'm certainly no expert on the law in Scotland, but this doesn't sound proper. I think I would request an interview with the senior officer, chief or whatever, and ask about these particulars. This could be a case of a couple officers showing their dislike of cd's and hoping to scare you off. The Breach/Causing alarm sounds a bit phony to me, at least concerning a cd.

Leah

[Tracii G]

How were you dressed is my question. If you were in a mini skirt and 6in heels maybe they thought you were a hooker.

[kimdl93]

That justification they gave for the stop is utter nonsense. I sincerely doubt that the police ran a check to see if your vehicle was registered to a male or female driver. If that were the case they'd have to run a registration check on every car they encounter to see if the driver matched the registration? Sounds like deliberate harassment to me.

[MadisonL]

I agree Kim. Op it is probably a good idea to go talk to the chief(?) of whatever department it was that pulled you over.

[amandaroberts]

How were you dressed is my question. If you were in a mini skirt and 6in heels maybe they thought you were a hooker.

I was just dressed casually in leggings and a hooded jumper.

That justification they gave for the stop is utter nonsense. I sincerely doubt that the police ran a check to see if your vehicle was registered to a male or female driver. If that were the case they'd have to run a registration check on every car they encounter to see if the driver matched the registration? Sounds like deliberate harassment to me.

In Scotland we have ANPR camera's so the details flash up of every vehicle that passes, I have no doubt for the reason they pulled me over...it was just the rest that left me baffled

[Tracii G]

OK I'm glad you were dressed just like any normal lady.
Sounds like harassment to me.I can see the police checking if you had a moving violation but for all they know that "woman" could have been your wife or GF driving your car.
For all I know that may be against the law in Scotland.

[Charlyne]

I'm sorry that happened to you. I am thinking they were a couple of jerks, having their kind of fun.

[Cristy2]

I had a similar encounter in Dayton Ohio about twenty-five or so years ago.

[Beverley Sims]

It sort of doesn't surprise me if you were driving over near toungue or one of those far north west towns.
Sometimes I think they have not caught up with the present.
It may all be down to your presentation and reaction to them pulling you over.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Amanda, Please keep us posted on what happens next.

[Rebecca Watson]

They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

I find this particularly unsettling. What are they going to do, get some popcorn and watch?

- Becky

[Princess Grandpa]

I don't even know what to say. I hope it was two <insert expletive>'s doing what those type of people do. While I don't know what I'm talking about I would find it shocking that it would be illegal there. *checks his notes to see if Scotland is a theocracy*. I'm so sorry you had to endure this!

Hug
Rita

[steph1964]

I am a police sergeant in the US so I don't know much about laws in Scotland. First, if crossdressing in the UK is legal then the officer can't charge you for breach of the peace for being out in public. Second, if you are the victim of a crime then they have to treat you as such. I checked online and Scotland has victim's rights laws similar to over here. It may have been the officer just didn't like someone who is transgendered. Contacting a supervisor may help. Again, I don't know the laws in Scotland so I may be wrong.

[Stacey Summer]

ANPR cameras only flash on a plate when there's a problem with the vehicle. No insurance, MOT etc. This was deliberate harassment. Talk to the chief officer and explain what happened. The two officers on question will likely recieve a reprimand. I would also make a complaint to the IPCC who are more likely to investigate than the chief.

[giuseppina]

I don't know about Scottish law, but in Canada, chances are high the officer would have breached our Charter of Rights, which provides, among other things, for freedom from discrimination on grounds of expression, subject to reasonable limitation. The reasonable limitation clause generally applies to hate crimes.

It strains credulity that the charges of "Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm" fit your situation. The `provoking a reaction` bit is victim-blaming, IMHO. It`s just an excuse not to act.

Probably homophobic or transphobic police officer(s) who should be hauled up on the carpet for their actions.

[Leona]

I am a police sergeant in the US so I don't know much about laws in Scotland.

Well, the US inherited its commonlaw system from the UK... There aren't that many differences.

Basically, for criminal offenses, there has to be a statute stating the offense, and then there's a whole series of judgments that clarify what the statute means.

Does such a statute exist in Scotland? How separate is Scotland's government from the UK? The US, being federalist, has the US government as superior to state governments, so if there's a US statute prohibiting discrimination against crossdressers, it would apply in every single state, even if a particular state has a statute outlawing such behavior.

Perhaps you should take this up with Lestrade.

[heatherdress]

If the police can pull you over simply because your car is registered to a male - if that's OK, then they should be pulling over every female wife or sister or friend who drives a care registered to a male to check their insurance. That is really BS. Also the threats made about leaving your car and not protecting you are totally improper. Were these guys really cops?

Sorry you experienced harassment. It may be very difficult to walk into a police station and speak to a supervisor. But you should do something, as others have suggested. Are there any advocate groups who can help you and perhaps represent you ? Maybe you can find a reasonable lawyer who might help. Good luck, Amanda.

[t-girlxsophie]

I am appalled at your story,I have to say though you have came across a pair of arseholes in uniform,I hope you got a note of heir name's and numbers.Police Scotland and it's regional divisions all have Diversity Officers to deal with situations just like this.In this day and age where we are making advances all the time,the actions of these "officers" should be dealt with by their superiors.If you want you can PM me where your from ( I Can find out from my friend,your local Diversity Officer)I'm sorry this happened to you and was so demeaning to you

Sophie

[Leona]

Here's an advocacy group:

http://www.scottishtrans.org/



The UK has no laws banning crossdressing, but apparently the charges he was threatening you with can be brought against crossdressers for somehow causing phlegmatic Brits to lose their composure. Still looking for Scotland in particular, since last I heard y'all were given back your parliament.

[gennee]

Breach/Causing Fear and Alarm? What's that about? I'm sorry about what happened. Keep us posted on what happens.

[heatherdress]

Maybe you might get help from groups like this:

http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/...we_do/2860.asp

http://www.spanglefish.com/swansofsc...?pageid=130200

[Leona]

Found this: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg05588.html

A breach of the peace is not a public order offence. The "peace" in
Scotland (and until very recent times in England and Wales) is in
essence the normal state of affairs where people can go about their
lawful activity without interference by someone.

I'm thinking they interpret crossdressing as a breach of the peace in much the same way a flasher would be charged with it, and that's purely driven by social attitudes towards crossdressing and nothing inherently wrong with doing it. This charge has apparently been redefined in the less inbred (sorry, couldn't resist. Scotland is the Alabama of the UK) parts of the UK, or removed entirely. This is probably a charge that appeared in common law and there may not be a statute to support it.

[DebbieL]

The first time I was stopped by the police as Debbie was in Colorado Springs Colorado. This is the headquarters for conservative Christian broadcasting network program "Focus on the Family" hosted by Jim Dobson. The town also has 5 military bases at at least 4 top secret government installations. Furthermore, this was 1991, so there were ZERO LGBT rights and there was even a campaign for a constitutional amendment to the Colorado constitution that would "Guarantee that homosexuals and perceived homosexuals, such as cross-dressers, would be given no special protections".

When I was pulled over, it was because a suitcase in the trunk had knocked the tail-light loose. He took my identification, insurance and registration, and spent nearly 1 hour running and recording me as an official cross-dresser. When he came back, he explained that there were many cross-dressers who committed criminal acts, and since it's not easy to match identities, I had to be compared to others matching my general description. They checked city records, state records, FBI records, and NSA records. At some point, they hit someone who checked REX's file, and said "Be very nice to him when you apologize". I know why, but it was so classified they couldn't even tell the officer why he had to be so nice.

I politely accepted the ticket, got out to look at the broken headlight, showing off my very short skirt, very long legs, 4 inch heels with ankle straps, and satin blouse, and checked the tail light. It took three seconds to move the suitcase and fix the tail light. I asked him "Do you need to give me the ticket for probable cause?". He said yes, and then made a note to the ticket that it had been fixed immediately. When I went in to pay the fine the following day, they cut it in half and eliminated all the points.

A few years later, I had to fill out a security application, and they asked about any aliases. I realized that I had been asked for my femme name, and so I had to provide all of my male nicknames and female nicknames. Rather than being rejected, they realized that if I could be transparent about that, I could probably be honest about anything else. Furthermore, they realized that I had kept it a secret for 30 years, so I could probably keep other secrets as well.