Problem With Police

[t-girlxsophie]

Off topic slightly.!Is it normal practise for Americans to bad mouth or criticize other nations as a matter of course.Maybe stick to the facts before labelling us as backwards or uncivilized,you would I'm sure be quick to berate us if we treated the U.S. in the same manner

[Leona]

t-girlxsophie: The literal answer to your question is "yes".

I want to point out that I also said that Alabama, a state in the US, also has that reputation. So does Arkansas, Tennessee, well pretty much all of the old confederacy (Tennessee technically stayed with the Union, but it was a slave state). So it's not like I was failing to relate or identify. That relating and identifying seems to have failed to reciprocate.

[Sejd]

Classic! We never know what's going to happen in such situations. It may be a nice copper or a jerk. Our only hope is that it doesn't happen in a remote aera where there is no other people to witness. I'm glad you got away safely.

[Kandy Barr]

Just unbelievable, I say go after their butts, then again you may be opening a can of worms and opening the door for future harassment and disclosure of your cd activity. A fragile situation to be sure. Sorry this had to happen to you. I still say you should somehow report their actions, perhaps you can do it and remain somewhat anonyms.

[Cristy2]

I don't know about the UK, but in several cities and states here in the US it is still illegal for men to be dressed as women in public, but thankfully the laws aren't enforced anymore except for when the police want to be super jerks like that clown in Ohio a few years ago.

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Amanda,

I am sorry to hear that you felt demeaned but I completely understand as I would have felt this way too.

Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm.

Ok, this, to me, is just BS and more about them trying to scare you. What does leaving your car parked in a public place have to do with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm? Hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland leave their cars parked in public places every day.

They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

This is just nonsense. CDing is not illegal in the UK so clearly, we have a case of police discrimination IMO.

I agree with others that have said that you should go and get some clarification on the laws of what they "claim" is the law. I'm sorry to say I think this is police victimization.

[MysticLady]

Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm. They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.:

WHAT!!! This does not sound right at all too me. It sound discriminatory. Oh, what about the drunks that disturb the peace at a bar. Sorry, you were there at your own risk, you know what can happen in those places. How about the wife that calls for her husband beating the crap out of her? Oh sorry, you very well knows what happens when you get married. This guys aren't cops, they're idiots.

as a former police officer and current CDer i have never given anyone a hard time about how they are presenting. some of my coworkers when out and away from the public will joke around with it but in the end they are professional about it.

Amy, that's the difference between A professional Police Officer and a Keystone Cop.(Typical Bubba)

[Amymonroe]

as a former police officer and current CDer i have never given anyone a hard time about how they are presenting. some of my coworkers when out and away from the public will joke around with it but in the end they are professional about it.

amy

[amandaroberts]

Thanks for all your support, this is the first time I have ever had any dealings with the police so I just took what they said to avoid any repercussions. Whilst they were telling me all the potential things I could be charged with I was certain it was incorrect, but I am not a confrontational person and had been made to feel so embarrassed I just wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible (without speeding lol).

For anyone that knows Scotland this was in a town called Irvine which is only about 40 miles from Glasgow so a fairly built up area and not some rural backwater so that's why I was so surprised by the attitude of the officers.

In Scotland we do have different laws to England and this sometimes can make it a bit more difficult when trying to find out about certain laws and who to complain to as the IPCC only deals with complaints in England and Wales.

I am also worried that if I do make a complaint and it ends up in court it could attract attention from the media and/or have an adverse reaction to how the police may treat me in future. I may just try and see if I can use the "data protection act" to see what data they hold on file for me and go from there....not sure if you can do that though.

[Crossboy]

I live in SW Iowa and like to dress when I'm traveling for sales. I like to go to parks and be in public. I like to do this in Iowa and Nebraska. Is there any laws I need to worry about?

Thanks

[Leona]

Dear girl, I believe your fundamental issue is whether or not you're ready to out yourself. If you fight this, you will out yourself to all you know (or at least have to assume this in making a decision). If you fight it, you'll be fighting the Good Fight and so forth. And if you're outed BY FIGHTING it, you may find yourself in a really good situation with those close to you.

That's for you to determine, of course.

Here in the US, the various associations that challenge laws and take them to the supreme court are careful about choosing which cases they will take on. They choose based on what will win according to their agenda. It's worth it for you to use that lens in determining what to do next. If you feel this is a fight you can wage, out yourself to everybody you know in a good way in the process, and ultimately win, then your course of action should be obvious. If anything along the way is missing, or questionable, and you don't know what to do about it, you may be better off reporting it anonymously to someone who cares but may not be able to act because it's anonymous.

I'm obviously biased towards fighting, so please reread my post filtering out the bias.

[Rianna Humble]

I was out and about for a drive just minding my own business when I was pulled over by the Police.

The reason for pulling me over was the owner and insurance details were showing as a male and they were concerned I was a female driving without insurance.

This cannot be the reason, the number plate recognition system used in Scotland is the same as that in the rest of the UK and doesn't have access to insurance companies. Besides which, you don't have to be the owner of the vehicle to have valid insurance to drive it. Unless you had given them reason to stop you, I call BS.

Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm. They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

If they said that, you should have taken their number since they were declaring an intent to fail in their duty. Even if an officer believes you to have provoked an assault, he is committing a criminal offence if he allows that assault to continue. This does not ring true so far.

Then to add icing to the cake they said my details would be placed on the police national computer with a note saying I cross dress.

I am not out to my close friends and family and some of them are in the police, what happens if they decide to check if anyone they know is on file? This is not what I would have expected of police in Scotland. it made me feel so demeaned!

Unfortunately, there are virtually no limits on what police can record under the heading of "Intelligence". However, any officer who accesses that record for personal reasons is committing Gross Professional Misconduct and is liable to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal with or without criminal prosecution.

[AmyGaleRT]

The first time I was stopped by the police as Debbie was in Colorado Springs Colorado. This is the headquarters for conservative Christian broadcasting network program "Focus on the Family" hosted by Jim Dobson. The town also has 5 military bases at at least 4 top secret government installations. Furthermore, this was 1991, so there were ZERO LGBT rights and there was even a campaign for a constitutional amendment to the Colorado constitution that would "Guarantee that homosexuals and perceived homosexuals, such as cross-dressers, would be given no special protections".

Fortunately, Colorado has changed an awful lot since then, as I learned from a Denver PD Captain. All police officers in the state should treat CDs with respect as the gender they present as. Gender identity is treated the same as sexual orientation for the purpose of banning discrimination in housing and employment, and we are explicitly permitted to use gender-segregated facilities like restrooms according to the gender we present as.

A Facebook friend of mine named Nancy-Jo Morris (from the Springs, in fact!) was instrumental in getting these laws passed. I and all the other Colorado sisters owe her a great debt of thanks.

- Amy

[jenni_xx]

Ok, this, to me, is just BS and more about them trying to scare you. What does leaving your car parked in a public place have to do with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm? Hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland leave their cars parked in public places every day.

Hi Rachel. I think the police were referring to Amanda exiting her car in a public place. In other words, they were saying that driving in public while dressed wouldn't result in a charge (Breach of the Peace), but walking around in public could.

I live in the UK - England, not Scotland. I have to admit I don't know the laws, regulations as well as perhaps I should. So I can't speak with any authority on the subject. But what happened to Amanda shocked me. It's never happened to me personally, and I have often seen cd's walking around Manchester and London. Never would it have occurred to me that they (or myself) could be arrested just for being outside. I hope that what the Police said to Amanda isn't true. One thought did cross my mind though - I wonder if the Police were being deliberately rude/intrusive in order to provoke a reaction from Amanda, which would then have resulted in her arrest. Amanda, if I were you, I would be very tempted to look deeper into this, and then take it further.

[dominique]

Have you got any paperwork detailing why you were pulled up, if so it should contain the number of the officers. Then you write a letter to the local area commander this will be on the police scotland website, copy in the chief constable, his name is Stephen House.. Detailing why you were pulled over and tell them every thing including the threat of you committing breach of peace, which I find is a total nonsense. As for their overall attitude its bordering on the homophobic, I thought that they all go course now on to handle these sort of situations. If you're not satisfied with the answer write a letter to your local MSP, out lining your problem, last resort is to threaten legal action under Human Rights Law. Just had a look in a law book Breach of the Peace is a wide term and is left up to the officers in question, so techinally they were right in their talk to you.

Sorry if this doesn't help, but still complain about their attitude.

[heatherdress]

Off topic slightly.!Is it normal practise for Americans to bad mouth or criticize other nations as a matter of course.Maybe stick to the facts before labelling us as backwards or uncivilized,you would I'm sure be quick to berate us if we treated the U.S. in the same manner

Sophie - No one bad mouthed or criticized or berated Scotland, or any other nation. I think everyone is simply appalled at what appears to be a inappropriate, harassing police interaction. It does not matter where it happened - it shouldn't. The vast majority of our police officers, in the US, UK, Canada, France, Italy (and the many countries represented on this site) are professional and helpful - there are a few that are not. That is what everyone has shown concern about.

[Jana]

They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

This lopsided mentality reminds me of that Canadian constable who inspired Sl*twalk. How convenient it is for police to transfer responsibility to the victims, huh? What a shame.

[Ressie]

it's very possible and probable that they pulled you over because they like pulling over attractive women. Then they made up the rest as they went along. If this is the case, they were also surprised (and let down) that you turned out to be a CD.

[Amanda M]

Amanda, I´m disgusted by the attitude of these police officers towards you, and I agree 100% with the advice given by Dominique. As for a possible breach of the Peace charge, the law and case law here is wide and varied, but I rather doubt if any such charge would stick, if only because of the need to demonstrate that your conduct would have caused alarm to any reasonable person who witnessed it.

Irvine is certainly not some backwater swamp, but law enforcement there is obviously somewhere in the late 19th century.

In four words - go for the throat!

[Kate Simmons]

This is one reason I always carry fresh donuts with me in the car when I'm out en femme.

[MysticLady]

This is one reason I always carry fresh donuts with me in the car when I'm out en femme.

........................................................

[susan54]

Scotland is a tolerant, liberal country, but no place in the world is completely free from bigotry, even in its law enforcement. At least once a year there is a major incident involving utter thuggery from the UK Police towards members of the public who have done nothing wrong, sometimes resulting in the death of someone who has simply been in the wrong place when an officer lost it. To be fair to the Police they are trying hard to weed out the bad apples (they just have some way to go), and it might well be that the Chief Constable of Police Scotland would welcome a letter as Dominique recommended. If you have their numbers, I suspect this type of observation will not be the first of its type to be made to their superiors. Yes, a Police officer can arrest you for almost anything as 'Conspiracy to disturb the Peace', but we have a Procurator Fiscal (public prosecution) service that would throw out a charge based on cross-dressing (on its own) as ridiculous - it is unlikely even to get past the sergeant. This is a country with a strong tradition of justice - it is probably a good few hundred years since the mob burned anyone here.

I have not been to Irvine dressed, or Tongue but I have visited both and people there seem as nice as anywhere else in Scotland (Tongue looks a lot nicer, though). Please do not judge the people of Scotland or Police Scotland by these oafs. They are the ones disturbing the peace and equanimity of our lovely country. By the way we have not been 'given' our own Government. We voted for it - we 'formed' our Government, and equality and diversity form - as in the UK- a key policy area.

[reb.femme]

Well, the US inherited its commonlaw system from the UK... There aren't that many differences.

Basically, for criminal offenses, there has to be a statute stating the offense, and then there's a whole series of judgments that clarify what the statute means.

Does such a statute exist in Scotland? How separate is Scotland's government from the UK?

Murder is not under statute in the UK, it is case law based. Manslaughter is on statute.

The Procurator Fiscal is responsible for the prosecution of crime in Scotland, as it has a separate legal system.

The Parliament in Scotland has many devolved powers but is limited in scope. Tax raising being one not devolved.

Rebecca

........Then to add icing to the cake they said my details would be placed on the police national computer with a note saying I cross dress......

This is discrimination on any level. However, unless you want to out yourself, complaining to the old Bill might not have the outcome you wish.

I'm not an expert on the law (finished my law degree 7 years back) but an entry on the Police National Computer that you cross dress would be exactly the same as saying you are to be referenced as homosexual or any other pejorative term you can think of. Basically, and I am prepared to be corrected here, this will not happen. You would have to be cautioned or charged for details to be recorded, and gender choice / preference is not on the list I'm afraid. Essentially, you met 2 @****...full stop.

Any Scottish Police here? Your input greatly appreciated I would think.

Rebecca

[Dianne S]

There must be a police complaints commission or similar in Scotland. I'd put in a complaint.

[Tara D. Rose]

All police are evil and poisoned with power.