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Thread: Am I being unreasonable? (Warning: my first post and my whole backstory, long post)

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    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Am I being unreasonable? (Warning: my first post and my whole backstory, long post)

    So I am 30 years old and have been dressing (primarily in stockings and high heels) for about 18 years.

    It took me a while to figure out exactly who I was, but by my mid-20s I kind of figured it out. I'm a straight man who basically feels sexy to wear skirts and stockings and high heels, and that while unusual, and perhaps socially unacceptable, there is nothing ethically or morally wrong with that. So from that point (about 5-6 years ago) I would basically wear these kinds of things occasionally at home alone. Even in that case it wasn't all the time, maybe a couple hours once a week.

    I started dating my wife 5 years ago and I did not initially tell her about this. One time after we had been dating for about a year she discovered my shoes. I explained to her what it was about and she said that she was very uncomfortable with that and asked me if I could stop doing that. At the time I was very much in love with her and figured it wasn't really a big deal to me, so I said sure.

    A few months later though I started up again, just occasionally, and only when I was alone, but I didn't tell her.

    This continued on in this way for about another year and a half, during which time we got married.

    few months into our marriage there was one night where a bunch of things had happened and we were basically trying to come clean to each other about everything. In short we had both cheated on each other while dating before we were married, but only sexual flings and we both only wanted each other.

    Perhaps because she was feeling guilty and starting on a clean slate, she asked me about my dressing and said that maybe she could try to see if she could deal with it.

    So we tried it for a week. I never got fully dressed around her but I did shave my legs and wear high heels around her. I even ordered a cocktrail dress. (Prior to that the only thing I had in the way of women's clothes was cheap French maid's outfit I had worn for Halloween years earlier.) After a week she said she couldn't deal with it. She said she loved my hairy legs and that she just couldn't stand to see me in high heels.

    From that point and for about a year and a half, up until about a month and a half ago, things existed in kind of a limbo state. She knew I still had my shoes but we didn't talk about it, and I would occasionally wear them when she wasn't around.

    In that year and a half I had acquired some new shoes and even a pair of skinny jeans. Also in that year and a half we moved from a conservative part of Florida to Los Angeles (relevant later).

    Sometimes when at home alone (which was frequent because she had gotten a job as a flight attendant) I would take pictures and post those pictures to Craigslist (in T4M) saying I was just looking to dress up. I never actually intended to meet a man for that, I just liked the attention and the compliments that were coming my way.

    In the most recent 6 months my wife and I had both started working out regularly and we've both gotten much more fit. I've also noticed that when I would dress, I look much slimmer, my legs look sexier, and, even though my chest grew with muscle, it actually filled out the bust area of the dress better than before.

    So I was thinking to maybe finally go out. I had dressed and worn high heels at home for a long time, but it had been a dream of mine to actually go outside, feel my feet in my favorite shoes on the street. However, I had never done makeup, have no idea how, and would be DEATHLY afraid of being an obscene object of attention and judging. However, having moved to Los Angeles, I had heard (through some of the people I chatted with on Craigslist) that West Hollywood at night was a pretty fun, accepting, safe, and relatively unassuming place that I could try.

    So I made another post on Craigslist, strictly platonic this time, looking for a woman to perhaps help me dress and go out with me (no way I could do this alone). I got a response from this fantastic woman (we'll call her Bev from this point). We passed a few e-mails, and then one night after work we met up just to talk. So we talked about what I wanted, what I hoped to accomplish, and she also had some issues in her own family life (she and I are both married) that I helped her discuss, since she also didn't have anyone else to talk about them with.

    Over the couple weeks Bev and I would text a lot about lots of things, most of the time not even dressing and after a very short time it was like we were old friends who'd known each other for years. So we talked about it and I decided I was going to tell my wife about my new friend, including the circumstances under which we met, because I didn't want to have to sneak and secretly hide this really wonderful new friend of mine. I didn't want my wife to think I was sneaking messages to another woman, or that I was cheating on her, and I didn't want to have to lie about Bev. So I told her, and she was not happy about the dressing. But she didn't get totally upset or irrational, but she was kind of surprised and disappointed to hear that I was still dressing up. But she left it there. She was a little bit quiet and distant for the rest of that evening, but the next day she seemed back to normal.

    Then a few days later, on a Friday, she got called for a trip. I let Bev know I was free and she said, "Great, let's go out tonight!"

    So she came over, she helped me do some makeup, which I did NOT have high expectations for, but came out better than expected, got dressed up, I had a couple shots before heading out, and we went out to some bars in West Hollywood, starting with Hamburger Mary's. We had a blast! We drank, we talked, we joked, we walked, we bar hopped, it was a fun night all around. I felt sexy dressed that way and wearing those shoes, but even aside from that I had found this awesome new drinking buddy (Bev is ex-military, so she can drink).

    (One surprising side effect, Monday at work (dressed as a man of course), which was my first time in a public place again since dressing up and going out, I was surprised to feel that I actually felt more secure and confident in myself AS A man. Perhaps having that outlet to express my feminine side allowed me to ease some of my insecurities.)

    The next day, after my wife came back, I told her about it and she was very upset. I tried to talk to her about it, tried to understand where she was coming from, what bothered her about it. I tried to explain that this was something that was a part of me, that it was an activity, a completely safe activity (safe from the perspective that it's not cheating with a person, this activity isn't a threat to our marriage and doesn't bring risk of STDs etc) that I enjoyed, but that I understand that she would be uncomfortable seeing me as anything but a man. I said, I would only do it occasoinally, perhaps once a month, and only when she was gone anyway, so that way she wouldn't have to see me, wouldn't have to help or support me, and also, when she was home, I wouldn't leave her to go do that. But despite all this she just seemed to get angrier and said "You can NEVER "talk" me over this, I will NEVER be ok with this!" It got to the point where I left to take a walk for a couple hours because I was just devastated.

    She had cooled off a great deal when I got home and she essentially said briefly, "I guess this is something about you that cannot change. You can do that if you want, but don't tell me about it. I don't want to know about it. Unless I ask you, and then I need you to be totally honest. Also if I happen to find evidence that you had done it, or if I ask and you have, I will be upset. But please just give me a day or two and I'll be over it."

    She was much more reasonable than she had been earlier and I felt that maybe we reached a decent state of equilibrium.

    Until this weekend. I have still chatted a lot with Bev, and my wife (Jane) knows it. But she also knows I'm not trying to hide anything and I've even offered that she can read our texts if she wants. She has declined, and so I believe she trusts me with Bev from that standpoint. However, it seems that merely mentioning Bev reminds her of my dressing and that begins to upset her. Normally I wouldn't go out of my way to mention Bev, but for example two weeks ago Bev invited me to have lunch with she and her family (they have a daughter). I invited Jane to go with us, but she declined.

    So, up till now, I had only dressed up and gone out one time, and that was about a month ago. Since then, I haven't even dressed at home.

    Finally this last weekend, on Saturday night, Jane asked me if I could stop dressing for her. I asked her if she NEEDED me to stop, and she said yes. I hesitated. I told her, I've tried to stop in the past. Even if I did stop, I can't stop thinking about it. It's been with me even through my teenage years when I was really religious and thought God cared about such things and I thought it was morally wrong. Even through that I couldn't stop thinking about it and I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about it now. She said but you could stop doing it? I paused and then said "... I could" I asked her then did she also want me to end my friendship with Bev. She asked me if I thought being friends with Bev would make it harder for me to stop. And I said no because while that was the initial reason for our friendship, it's not even something we talk about most of the time. So Jane said, “ok, if you can stop dressing and you and Bev stop talking about that, then I would be willing to meet her and try and make friends with her." I asked her again, "do you NEED me to stop?" and she said yes. I said ok, and I immediately felt deflated. She asked "Are you mad? are you sad?" And I said I wasn't mad but I was sad.

    After thinking about that and feeling down all evening, the next morning I said to her, "Why can't you accept this small thing? I'm not talking about a life-change here, I wouldn't dress in front of you, you'd never have to see it or know about it. It would be infrequent (once a month), it wouldn't change our relationship or how I feel about her. I still want to be a man, I'm not looking to have a sex change."

    She immediately got upset and turned away from me and said "Fine you can do what you want but I can't say for certain if it will change how I feel about you. Also that you want to continue to do this makes me think you are gay."

    Anyway, this is where I'm at now. She has been on a trip the past 3 days and I've just been stewing over this. The fact that she's asked me to stop dressing but that I haven't dressed in almost a month makes me feel like she's creating a much bigger issue in her head than what things really are.

    I feel like I'm rationalizing that my request (once a month, only when she wouldn't be around anyway) isn't unreasonable, that she is being somewhat selfish. But I can't help shake the feeling that I'm the one who's being selfish by not considering her feelings.


    Can anyone else shed some light or advice onto my situation? Am I being unreasonable? Because I want to know if I am. I actually suggested at one point that maybe we should see a marriage counselor, but she immediately shot that down saying "that would be a waste of money."

    -Jenn

  2. #2
    Administrator Tamara Croft's Avatar
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    Hi and welcome to our forum

    I'm a GG (the wife) and I don't think once a month is unreasonable at all. The thing with cd'ing is, the wife usually doesn't have anyone to talk to about it, most have no idea how many people all over the world do this and they just think it's weird and up... been there, done that, joined a forum (this one)... took me a few years to get my head around it, but now I help run this place, so it must have worked

    Does she have anyone to talk to? do you want my email, she can talk to me if she wants??

    Try not to stew over it, it will just make things worse, you will resent her for it and hate yourself.

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  3. #3
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    You know, that thought has occurred to me. I've got my new friend Bev who I can talk to about dressing or my home life or anything and be totally and 100% candid, but my wife doesn't. She would be far too embarrassed to talk about this kind of thing with any of her friends and family. Also she has refused, at my urging in the past, to do some research on this issue, sent her a link to a recent article talking about Oscar De La Hoya (a boxer) and crossdressing, but she wouldn't read it.

    What's left is she is fairly ignorant on the issue, with no one to talk to, and only her own preconceptions swimming circles inside her head. I get that she may never be comfortable seeing me that way. Frankly I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable dressed up with her. I want to be a man for her. But I just want her to love me for who I am, and see that this is not the mountain of a problem I feel like she's created in her mind.

    Edit: Tam I'd be happy to share your email with her, but I feel that more than likely she won't want any part of it. But it is appreciated.

  4. #4
    Aspiring Member Leona's Avatar
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    She also has a husband who's been doing all the cheating behaviors except actually cheating. Consider that for a bit.

  5. #5
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    I fully recognize that I have not been without fault. But i have cut out the bad behaviors, as i dont want to feel like a rotten liar anymore, and i dont want to be a cheater. But That's also why I wanted to be open with her about this and Bev. I want to be able to be completely honest with her without hiding dirty secrets of my own.

  6. #6
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Hi Jenn,

    I feel for you, and I know you're in a difficult situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    She immediately got upset and turned away from me and said "Fine you can do what you want but I can't say for certain if it will change how I feel about you."
    If I were you, I'd accept her grudging acceptance here. She said OK, so don't try to get her to be enthusiastic as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    The fact that she's asked me to stop dressing but that I haven't dressed in almost a month makes me feel like she's creating a much bigger issue in her head than what things really are.
    You stood up for yourself and your needs, and she gave in, right? You are in charge of your body. But conversely, she is entitled to her feelings, and you don't get to insist that she be happy about the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    I actually suggested at one point that maybe we should see a marriage counselor, but she immediately shot that down.
    Sounds like you could use a counselor of your own. You can't force someone else to change, but you can model what adult behavior looks like, and speak positively about your experiences with your counselor, and she may come around.


    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    What's left is she is fairly ignorant on the issue, with no one to talk to, and only her own preconceptions swimming circles inside her head. I get that she may never be comfortable seeing me that way. Frankly I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable dressed up with her. I want to be a man for her. But I just want her to love me for who I am, and see that this is not the mountain of a problem I feel like she's created in her mind.
    Try to have empathy for your wife's opinion, rather than just dismissing it as based on ignorance and preconceptions. She's not totally wrong to be scared and apprehensive about these changes. Many men crossdress once in a while and never take it further, but, from what I've read, those are mostly the men who are sneaking around and scared to get caught. To me, it seems like men who go to the effort of coming clean with their wives usually want more and more.

    They may not end up wanting to come out to the rest of the world (to their parents, children, & colleagues), so it may be limited to evenings at home... but if a wife accepts cross-dressing it can often take over a lot of the shared time together. You can say that won't happen, but you have to admit that your desires have shifted over time, from dressing in private to now enjoying going out dressed as a woman. So you can say that it will never be more than once a month, but you can't know for sure, and neither can she.

    For another thing, for some women it's hard to maintain their image of their guy as masculine if they know that he likes to be feminine. If that's true of your wife, then maybe you're not as compatible as you thought you were. That doesn't make her a bad person. Give her time, and show her that you're still the same person, still manly in bed, still fun to hang out with. Over time, the two of you will be able to judge better about your compatibility than you can right now, when these feelings are still new to her.

  7. #7
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    Welcome Jenn
    How would you feel if your wife sought out another man on CL for whatever reason?
    If I were your wife I would be hurt by that first off and the lying about dressing.
    My trust in you would have ended right there.
    If she says she isn't hurt its my guess she is hurt deeply.
    Last edited by Tracii G; 08-06-2013 at 07:50 PM.

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    Welcome. Now to the question. Dressing once a month is not a problem. Going out once a month with a friend, not a problem. The problem is that the actions have always preceded the discussions with your wife, and because of this, she's being pushed into a more rigid position. And you have, at each step weakened her confidence in you.

    Somehow, you and your wife need to reset your relationship. Instead of testing her with one thing then another, get back to basics, start at her basic issues and concerns with dressing and explain your basic needs, and preference for sharing rather than hiding. Perhaps, in baby steps, you may regain her trust and diminish her aversion to dressing.

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    Aspiring Member Leona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tracii G View Post
    Welcome Jenn
    How would you feel if your wife sought out another man on CL for whatever reason?
    If I were your wife I would be hurt by that first off and the lying about dressing.
    My trust in you would have ended right there.
    If she says she isn't hurt its my guess she is hurt deeply.
    Indeed, it's not a big step to see that maybe she's asking you not to dress as her way of hurting you back? I've seen that pattern of behavior....

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    You are escalating and "progressing" right before her eyes. I feel certain that she feels you are trying to "coerce" her to accept. Being in LOVE with someone does not mean they must accept "little things". They are obviously not little to her.

    I think Bev is the dealbreaker here and I see big trouble ahead if you can't or won't sever your ties with her.
    Last edited by Wildaboutheels; 08-06-2013 at 08:16 PM.

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    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    Jenn,
    I think you have to go back to square one and build a relationship with your wife, not others.
    Try and establish where you want to go and do not show any selfish attitude in this.
    Sometimes back tracking works well and you can then go forward again.
    I would not depend on Craigslist or even a meet up on this forum.
    There is plenty of sound advice here but do you need to say a third party said something contrary to what your wife thinks.
    Go slow for a while and things should slowly mend.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

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    Finding a married woman on the sly, establishing a secret relationship, going out drinking together, continuing the relationship when it is upsetting to your wife - nothing good is going to result. If I were your wife, I think I would feel betrayed, even without the crossdressing. I think you need to shut your CD down, say good-bye to Bev, repair the damage, build your relationship with your wife - and then, openly, explore your CDing activities.

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    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Actually we have a sexually liberal marriage. On her side. She does sometimes meet men for flings, and it's fine with me. She is not quite able to handle me sleeping with other women. Which is ok with me because I only want her.

    And Bev and I are strictly friends and I have been completely open with my wife about her.

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    You are leading a double life, sharing more of yourself with Bev and random internet strangers than you are with your wife. It seems like you want her permission more than her acceptance.

    I was once in a similar position to that of your wife. When I’d reached the point of saying, ‘fine, whatever, do what you want,’ it meant I was emotionally disengaged to the point where I felt the relationship was not salvageable. My guess is that you are on the thinnest of thin ice - insist on counseling.

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    Administrator Di's Avatar
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    Married GG here as well.

    I think part of the problem is your wife does not understand it is a part of you and not a choice.I think you might have miss led her in this.
    And I would have been crushed if my hubby did all this girl time with another woman. This is very personal and something you should not be doing with a new friend
    I wish you could invite her here to talk to other GGs.
    Best wishes
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    Um, just because you don't seem to have a problem with her "sleeping around" doesn't mean your wife must accept your "behavior".

    Tit for tat only works when it is acceptable to BOTH parties.

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    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    Actually we have a sexually liberal marriage. On her side. She does sometimes meet men for flings, and it's fine with me.
    Did she suggest this for herself, or did you encourage her to go out and find other men?

  18. #18
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    It started out when she started her job and was based in a different city than we were living in. I did not encourage her to do it, just said it was ok if she did.

    Even though we're in the same city now she still does from time to time, but it's on her volition, I have never suggested it

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels View Post
    Um, just because you don't seem to have a problem with her "sleeping around" doesn't mean your wife must accept your "behavior".

    Tit for tat only works when it is acceptable to BOTH parties.
    I never said it does. It's why I didn't mention it in my original post. This is a totally different thing, not tit for tat.
    Last edited by Di; 08-07-2013 at 06:23 AM.

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    Saying it was OK for her to and then you saying you want only her? How in the hell does that work?
    I may be wrong but it smells like you have been on the sly for some time and feel guilty that you sleep with other women so that why you say its OK for her to sleep with other men.
    Last edited by Tracii G; 08-06-2013 at 11:49 PM.

  20. #20
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Thanks for explaining, Jenn. Maybe she feels guilty about her outside activities, and that leads her to be even more restrictive toward you. It really does seem as if counseling would help you guys talk about all these issues and how you really feel. On the other hand, if she refuses counseling and refuses to really discuss how to meet the needs of both spouses, then maybe, as Flent suggested, she's already checked out of the marriage. Sorry things aren't going well right now.

  21. #21
    Aspiring Member Leona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    Actually we have a sexually liberal marriage. On her side. She does sometimes meet men for flings, and it's fine with me. She is not quite able to handle me sleeping with other women. Which is ok with me because I only want her.
    Run for the hills, dear lady. Run for the hills.

    She doesn't like what you wear, she can sleep with whoever she wants, and you can't wear what you want nor sleep with who you want. You can't even sleep with HER because she spends so much time out of town.

    This is a doomed marriage. Walk away now, before it hurts more.

  22. #22
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    In my opinion, u have a weak marriage because BOTH of you have serious communication issues. And, if u both continue on without help, u won't have any kind soon! You're still very young. Whatever u think u want now will change. Possibly soon and possibly dramatically. Been there, done that.

    You're only chance as I see it, is to see a very experienced counselor ASAP. I think u need one more than she does! Or, u can do as your probable ex suggests and save the money for divorce attorney's fees.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  23. #23
    Aspiring Member Leona's Avatar
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    Also, if she throws at you that she wants to be with other men because you're not "man enough" for her, that's a clear sign of control issues, and a reason to run for the hills.

  24. #24
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leona View Post
    Also, if she throws at you that she wants to be with other men because you're not "man enough" for her, that's a clear sign of control issues, and a reason to run for the hills.
    That's never been at issue. For her she says it's just the thrill of the fling. But we still have a healthy sex life with each other

  25. #25
    Aspiring Member Leona's Avatar
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    It's for you to determine what's happening, I only know what you tell me. Based on what you tell me, and I'm not a crazy monogamist or anything, but based on what you tell me, if this were happening to me, I'd tell her to take a long walk off a short pier. I can be single and have everything you have right now. Can you?

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