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Thread: Am I being unreasonable? (Warning: my first post and my whole backstory, long post)

  1. #26
    Senior Member Jacqueline Winona's Avatar
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    I feel for you, Jenna, not great. You could have handled things with the craigslist better, but you did come clean. The whole friend thing is going to be tough for her to overcome, but her real issue is with the dressing (it can be a deal breaker for many women) if your description is accurate. Can you live with only dressing around the house when she isn't around? Can she live with that? You're both going to have to have to find common ground to move forward, and that is the best solution I see for you.

  2. #27
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    Even if you decide together that you're never going to dress up again for whatever reason, I think it's a smart idea that she is going to read up on your 'condition'. Maybe not directly, but certainly somewhere in the future. The simple fact that she thinks you 'might be gay' because of your CD urges is a huge red flag for her not knowing nearly enough about the subject. I know this is probably not something she signed up for when you two tied the knot, but it's not something that goes away by ignoring it.

  3. #28
    Aspiring Member Samantha_Smile's Avatar
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    I think your wife is having a hard time dealing with the basic facts.
    She seems to hold the usual per-conceived notion that CD/TVs are gays in disguise so it wouldn't surprise me if she thought you wanted a sex change or wanted to live as a woman.
    When my GF was still getting a grip on my CD side i put together a bookmark folder of links for her to check out on the web (It was 3 years ago, if I still had it saved I'd put up all the links) so she could read what other people have been through, and see the same info on various different sites and begin to rationalise it as fact, and kind of back up what I was saying
    "Im not gay, I dont want to live this way, I dont want a sex change, yes I still love you, of course your enough of a woman for me, no I dont want you to dress like a man when Im dressed like a woman...."
    There were many other questions besides the above, but Im just illustrating the point.

    She questions because she loves you.
    What she needs to get her head around is that that her minds view on you is different to the reality.
    Youve been dressing as long as youve known her, longer in fact... But she loves the 'you' that has always crossdressed in one way or another, to make you stop would stop you from being who you are.

    You can work it out.
    If need be, refer her to here, let her read the forums and look in the SO room.
    I found this was helpful for my GF.

    Also check out
    http://www.crossdresserswives.com/revision/home.html
    http://www.crossdreamers.com/2010/11...sdressers.html
    http://www.vernoncoleman.com/andwhydosome.htm

    Links similar to this will be invaluable
    Best wishes
    Samantha -x-

  4. #29
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leona View Post
    It's for you to determine what's happening, I only know what you tell me. Based on what you tell me, and I'm not a crazy monogamist or anything, but based on what you tell me, if this were happening to me, I'd tell her to take a long walk off a short pier. I can be single and have everything you have right now. Can you?
    Actually, this last weekend when she asked me to stop, it seemed like she was trying to bargain with me. Not only did she offer to meet with Bev and try to become friends, she also offered that if I stopped dressing, she would stop sleeping with other men.

    My point is, she's not simply being a control freak, and she is committed to us. She just can't accept my dressing, even if sparingly and "hidden" from her.

  5. #30
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Why do you say she can't accept your dressing when she said "fine, you can do what you want"?

  6. #31
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqueline Winona View Post
    I feel for you, Jenna, not great. You could have handled things with the craigslist better, but you did come clean. The whole friend thing is going to be tough for her to overcome, but her real issue is with the dressing (it can be a deal breaker for many women) if your description is accurate. Can you live with only dressing around the house when she isn't around? Can she live with that? You're both going to have to have to find common ground to move forward, and that is the best solution I see for you.
    Unfortunately she cannot. Her issue is that I'm doing it at all. She has said that merely the thought of me doing that bothers her. Further, I've asked her explicitly if my friendship with Bev bothers her, because as much as I like Bev, she obviously is not anywhere close to as important as my wife. She said it's not the friendship that bothers her, it's that whenever I mention Bev casually (about something unrelated to dressing) she is immediately reminded of the crossdressing which then upsets her.

    Quote Originally Posted by JessM. View Post
    Why do you say she can't accept your dressing when she said "fine, you can do what you want"?
    I believe Homer Simpson said it best when he said, "When a woman says nothing's wrong, that means everything's wrong. And when a woman says everything's wrong, that means everything's wrong! And when a woman says something's not funny, you'd better not laugh your ass off!"

    My point is only that, this was not a reluctant, "ok, well, I guess that's what it is." It was more of a "Fine!" = "You'd better not!"
    Last edited by Tamara Croft; 08-07-2013 at 04:24 PM. Reason: multiposting isn't allowed posts merged read the rules please

  7. #32
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Second-guessing her words is not reasonable. I think you should treat her like an adult, and say that you will keep things discreet but you're not going to stop. Let her be in charge of her emotions, and her choices in life -- you be in charge of your life and do what you need to do.

  8. #33
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JessM. View Post
    Second-guessing her words is not reasonable. I think you should treat her like an adult, and say that you will keep things discreet but you're not going to stop. Let her be in charge of her emotions, and her choices in life -- you be in charge of your life and do what you need to do.
    Hi Jess,

    That is essentially where things had left off. I'm not second-guessing her words, but context means everything. However, I'll try and go forward this way.

    Another issue that she had previously mentioned (that I forgot to include in my already long original post) was something you had mentioned, she didn't know if it was going to go further than this, such as dressing this way all the time at home or even a sex-change. I tried to reassure her that was not something I'd ever want, but only as much as my words could. Obviously there is still some apprehension for her.

    Maybe after a few months, she'll come to realize that perhaps it's not a big problem.

    Also, I think I will go see a counselor myself, and hopefully she'd be willing to join me eventually.

  9. #34
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    The fact that she's asked me to stop dressing but that I haven't dressed in almost a month makes me feel like she's creating a much bigger issue in her head than what things really are.
    Yes she is, and as Tamara said, she's doing this because she doesn't understand. The only thing she knows about the CDing is the stereotype that all of us are exposed to until we delve into it a bit deeper. Before getting to know any CDers, I thought it was something that gay men do, to attract other gay men ... and to an outsider, going on Craigslist T4M is what gay men do. Your wife doesn't know that you've done this, but if she ever found your ads it would confirm the stereotype. Also, you may not realize this but you are playing with fire. Your needs will grow as your wife becomes more accepting (if she does), and if you enjoy playing around with male compliments, it could lead to an obsession with having sex with one, while you're dressed:

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...boys-as-a-girl (8 pages, 205 posts, 12,872 views)

    At any rate, your wife needs to educate herself including possibly becoming a member here. The following link is just a beginning; it is the link that my SO sent me when he first told me about the CDing:

    http://www.tri-ess.org/docs/cd01.html

    Hope this helps.
    Reine

  10. #35
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Yes she is, and as Tamara said, she's doing this because she doesn't understand. The only thing she knows about the CDing is the stereotype that all of us are exposed to until we delve into it a bit deeper. Before getting to know any CDers, I thought it was something that gay men do, to attract other gay men ... and to an outsider, going on Craigslist T4M is what gay men do. Your wife doesn't know that you've done this, but if she ever found your ads it would confirm the stereotype. Also, you may not realize this but you are playing with fire. Your needs will grow as your wife becomes more accepting (if she does), and if you enjoy playing around with male compliments, it could lead to an obsession with having sex with one, while you're dressed:

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...boys-as-a-girl (8 pages, 205 posts, 12,872 views)

    At any rate, your wife needs to educate herself including possibly becoming a member here. The following link is just a beginning; it is the link that my SO sent me when he first told me about the CDing:

    http://www.tri-ess.org/docs/cd01.html

    Hope this helps.
    Thanks Reine. I didn't realize it at the time, but I do now realize that was a dangerous game. It is also why I have stopped that behavior. I don't want to do anything that I'm not prepared to be completely honest with my wife about.

    This is something that is very difficult for her. As a result, I'm not looking for support from her in this. To be honest, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable dressing around her.

    Ultimately, she is more important to me than dressing, but ideally I'd love for her to be able to accept this small separate part of me, and know that I'm still the same person she's always known.

  11. #36
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    I tried to reassure her that was not something I'd ever want, but only as much as my words could.
    Yes, exactly. Words & promises can only provide a small amount of reassurance, because most people who dress frequently or even transition started out as people who said (at least to their wives) that they like being men and this will not become a big part of their lives. If you read the transition forum here, you'll see many posts from people saying "wow, two years ago I was just starting out as a crossdresser; I could never have imagined wanting to transition, and yet now it feels like nothing could stop this steamroller."

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    she's doing this because she doesn't understand....Your needs will grow as your wife becomes more accepting
    Hi Reine,
    Why do you say "she doesn't understand," when you yourself say that his needs are likely to grow?

    To me, the reasonable approach is to accept that
    a) none of us are guaranteed a Cinderella fairy tale happy ending, and
    b) none of us know how much longer we have to spend together.

    I don't know how long I have with my husband -- he may decide to transition, or he may fall in love with someone at work, or he may get hit by a truck. But if I spend my time with him arguing about gender issues, or sulking, or worrying, all I've done is guarantee that I didn't get to enjoy whatever time I do have with him. Make each day you have together precious, because it's the only one you can be sure you will have. Let tomorrow take care of itself.

    I know it's easier to say that than to do it. But at least it's a reasonable goal: to enjoy each day together and not worry too much about how many more days we'll have in the future.

  12. #37
    Ice queen Lorileah's Avatar
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    I am polyamorus, I am involved in alternate lifestyle things, I am not usually the jealous type, I do like to think that my partner can have outside interests but...(you knew this was coming) advertizing for T4M (sorry but that still means "gay" or "bi") or T4W and saying it is just platonic? It may seem innocent to you but I don't get it. Also it seems that when you get a little fron your wife (dress when she isn't here, keep the shoes but hidden) you seem to want to push it further. Eventually the balloon will burst.

    But here is one thing you can use maybe...sorta...well I wouldn't but you can. She finds the "flings exciting" tell you you find the clothes exciting. Seems to be fair.
    The earth is the mother of all people and all people should have equal rights upon it.
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    “Love isn't a state of perfect caring. It is an active noun like struggle. To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.” - Fred Rogers,

  13. #38
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorileah View Post
    I am polyamorus, I am involved in alternate lifestyle things, I am not usually the jealous type, I do like to think that my partner can have outside interests but...(you knew this was coming) advertizing for T4M (sorry but that still means "gay" or "bi") or T4W and saying it is just platonic? It may seem innocent to you but I don't get it. Also it seems that when you get a little fron your wife (dress when she isn't here, keep the shoes but hidden) you seem to want to push it further. Eventually the balloon will burst.

    But here is one thing you can use maybe...sorta...well I wouldn't but you can. She finds the "flings exciting" tell you you find the clothes exciting. Seems to be fair.
    Thanks Lorileah.

    I think at the time I found the compliments from guys innocent, that I was just appealing to my vanity, but I have since realized it is probably not and I have shut that down. As for the T4W platonic, since dressing is something I know I could never get support from my wife from, I was hoping to find someone that maybe I could go out with and, if I chose to wear it, help me with makeup as I have no clue about it.

    I can say I understand the doubts from others here about the innocence of my friendship with this other woman, but I can only say what I know to be true. I feel like we're old friends, and there is nothing romantic at all between us.

    Also, I'm not trying to push things any further than what I've already done. I simply don't want to have to lie to my wife about this anymore. I have no problem using discretion to keep it "out of sight, out of mind" for her. But if it came down to her asking me point blank, did you dress up, I don't want to lie to her.
    Last edited by jennarac; 08-07-2013 at 03:14 PM.

  14. #39
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    Forgive me if I'm going to be very blunt and negative here after reading the entire thread. I see and predict a train wreck down the tracks. The complexity of all that is and has been going on is a red flag in too many ways. Your wife is highly resistant to accepting your dressing and unless something revolutionary happens, I really doubt that this will resolve itself. This may well become a constant struggle for both of you and any supression is only going to boil over at some point.

    My first wife sort of accepted it with me but then other factors came into play that are too numerous to mention right now. In the end we divorced. Today I have a wife who knew on about our third date and fully accepts me.

    I really hope you can resolve this and maintain your marriage. At on your own at least speak with a counselor---the best advice I can give. I remember after my separation I asked mine if I would ever meet a woman who could accept me the way way I am. He said, "Yes, you will." And I did.

    Cheryl Ann

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JessM. View Post
    Hi Reine,
    Why do you say "she doesn't understand," when you yourself say that his needs are likely to grow?
    I don't mean grow to the point of transition. I don't think that Jennarac is TS. But if you look at the fantasy 'boys-as-girls' link I posted, autogynephilia (AGP) can grow to the point of desiring men as props in order to experience sex as a woman, whether or not a CDer ever goes there physically. Jenn did say that s/he feels sexy when dressed and that it led to playing on Craigslist. (Jenn ... I'm glad you decided to abandon that chase )

    But it's been proven in this forum time and time again that CDing levels do grow at least to the point of wishing to go out in public on a regular basis and establishing a part-time life as a girl ... I must add, providing the CDer eliminates all external and internal barriers.

    Back to Jenn, even if you don't want your wife to be involved, it is still important for her to understand where all this is coming from and where it will potentially lead (albeit not transition), else you risk continually stretching the boundaries until your marriage is severely strained. It will start with shaving parts of your body if you don't do this already, then trimming your eyebrows, perhaps getting rid of the dark facial hair (5 o'clock shadow is difficult to deal with), piercing your ears (clip-ons are uncomfortable), buying forms, pads, waist-cinchers, expanding your wardrobe exponentially ... as you grow to the point of wanting to present a realistic appearance when you go out to mingle in public.

    All of this tends to begin around middle age, or earlier for some people.
    Reine

  16. #41
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Back to Jenn, even if you don't want your wife to be involved, it is still important for her to understand where all this is coming from and where it will potentially lead (albeit not transition), else you risk continually stretching the boundaries until your marriage is severely strained. It will start with shaving parts of your body if you don't do this already, then trimming your eyebrows, perhaps getting rid of the dark facial hair (5 o'clock shadow is difficult to deal with), piercing your ears (clip-ons are uncomfortable), buying forms, pads, waist-cinchers, expanding your wardrobe exponentially ... as you grow to the point of wanting to present a realistic appearance when you go out to mingle in public.

    All of this tends to begin around middle age, or earlier for some people.
    Hi Reine, while I would like to shave my legs because it simply looks nicer (either bare or in stockings, also I feel my primary fixation is on the legs), I don't do that because on more than one occasion, completely unrelated to a discussion about dressing, my wife has said she loves my hairy legs.

    As for all the other things you mentioned, it's really difficult for me to imagine wanting to do all or any of those things. That said, it seems from conversations and links I've read here, it's also impossible to say precisely what will be in the future. I had also read a research paper that a lot of these escalations tend to happen closer to middle age, due to (at least this paper's hypothesis) waning male hormones, which would coincide with your comment.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    Can anyone else shed some light or advice onto my situation? Am I being unreasonable? Because I want to know if I am. I actually suggested at one point that maybe we should see a marriage counselor, but she immediately shot that down saying "that would be a waste of money."

    -Jenn
    Sounds all too familiar. Once you figure it out Jenn, let me know.

  18. #43
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    As for all the other things you mentioned, it's really difficult for me to imagine wanting to do all or any of those things.
    Right. But don't forget, I also said providing you rid yourself of external (your wife's non-acceptance, fear of being found out) and internal (fear of ridicule, fear of going farther while not yet understanding where it is leading and why) barriers.

    Not everyone will go as far as I described. But, a very wise (and practiced) CDer once said something that I've always observed to be true: "A crossdresser will want take it as far as he dreams or as far as he feels that he can."
    Reine

  19. #44
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    Just so you know... Not everyone evolves, changes, progresses - call it what you will - or WORRIES of what may be down the CDing line for them.

    You don't seem to fit this category.

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...IED&highlight=

  20. #45
    Junior Member jennyscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennarac View Post
    ... I actually suggested at one point that maybe we should see a marriage counselor, but she immediately shot that down saying "that would be a waste of money."
    After reading through this thread there is one thing that keeps gnawing my heels! I understand the issues of trust, confusion, and uncertainty that Jenn's CD bring. Without minimizing that I keep returning to the point that Jenn's wife has outside relationships (perhaps too strong a term?). That right there suggests a significant need for marriage counseling! I point this out not to be judgmental but to indicate a marriage at risk.

    Good luck Jenn.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    ... a very wise (and practiced) CDer once said something that I've always observed to be true: "A crossdresser will want take it as far as he dreams or as far as he feels that he can."
    Thanks for the insight Reine. There's more truth in that statement than I have ever considered.
    Last edited by Tamara Croft; 08-07-2013 at 04:26 PM. Reason: multiposting isn't allowed posts merged read the rules please
    Jenny

  21. #46
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels View Post
    Just so you know... Not everyone evolves, changes, progresses - call it what you will - or WORRIES of what may be down the CDing line for them.

    You don't seem to fit this category.

    http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...IED&highlight=
    Hi, I'm dense sometimes, but I can't quite figure out which category you meant by "this", the category that does worry or the category that doesn't.

    To be honest, before posting yesterday, I wasn't worried. I had basically gotten what I had wanted by just going out and having fun drinking with a friend.

    I didn't start to worry until people started telling me I should worry. So now I'm not sure if I should be worried or not :-/

    Quote Originally Posted by jennyscott View Post
    After reading through this thread there is one thing that keeps gnawing my heels! I understand the issues of trust, confusion, and uncertainty that Jenn's CD bring. Without minimizing that I keep returning to the point that Jenn's wife has outside relationships (perhaps too strong a term?). That right there suggests a significant need for marriage counseling! I point this out not to be judgmental but to indicate a marriage at risk.

    Good luck Jenn.
    While I will try to seek counseling and hopefully convince her to join me eventually, I don't necessarily agree that a sexually liberal marriage is indicative of a serious problem. First, I wouldn't call them relationships, it's basically based purely on sex so it's more akin to a fling. And it's not very frequent, maybe 1-3 times a year.

    Further, we've fully discussed it to a degree where we're both comfortable with it. For her it's just the excitement you can sometimes experience with sex with a new person, and I'm fine with her enjoying her sexuality in that way. I actually find the fact that she is such a sexual person even more arousing to me.

    As for me, she is a bit more jealous and is a bit more reluctant to allow me to do the same with another woman, but she has said that she understands it wouldn't be fair to do that and forbid me to. She said if I had an opportunity to do so, tell her about it, and she will try and see how she feels about it. However, that's not been an issue because I've had no opportunities and haven't really sought them out.
    Last edited by Tamara Croft; 08-07-2013 at 04:27 PM. Reason: multiposting isn't allowed posts merged read the rules please

  22. #47
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    After reading through this thread I have to honestly say it is time for both of you to move on.

    At this point your wife will most likely not give you the space for you to be who you need to be and with all of the "telling after the fact" stuff there does not seem to be real trust or love any more. DO you really want to be at odds with your wife till death do you part?

    Move on before too much time passes so you both can enjoy the rest of your lives.

    I have posted this before but I made the effort to let my then girlfriend who is now my wife of almost 19 years all about my dressing.

    She had no clue what a CD was and it was even funnier the first time I dressed for her cause her first words when she saw me was "I really need to teach you some things"

    It took a few years and a lot of communication and professional therapy to where we are both as comfy as we are now. I dress in whatever I want/whenever I want and there are times when I am really stressed from my job or something and my wife will tell me that I should get all dolled up and relax.

    But the bottom line was is that I told her way before we married to give us both a way out and we never hid anything from each other.

    And I made sure before I did anything new or different, I ran it past her first. Not that I had to but I did it out of consideration for her. It worked out very well.

    I wish you both luck.

  23. #48
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I'm in an open marriage. We opened up after 15 years, and we've both taken advantage of the freedom. A lot the first year (after 15 years of monogamy), and now after a few years it has tapered off, to just 1-3 times a year, like Jenn's wife.

    One advantage of having an open marriage is that I'm less terrified of entering this new world of transgender issues. Here are some reasons why:
    1) We already dealt with a potentially marriage-ending issue and we came through it even stronger than before, and with improved sexual energy between us as well.

    2) If he ends up going all the way to transition, I have more confidence I'll still be able to enjoy our sex life because I've tried sex with women, and I also know that I'll be allowed to get a boyfriend if I have needs that my spouse can't satisfy.

    3) If my husband ends up wanting to try sex with men while he's dressed, that isn't going to be the end of the world. I won't say we've solved the problem of jealousy, but we've certainly got a handle on it and we know we can survive it.

  24. #49
    New Member jennarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarenCDFL View Post
    At this point your wife will most likely not give you the space for you to be who you need to be and with all of the "telling after the fact" stuff there does not seem to be real trust or love any more. DO you really want to be at odds with your wife till death do you part?
    With all due respect, there is still a great deal of love in our relationship. As for trust, we've had our share of issues with that (the cheating before we were married), and that took its toll, but we've since worked through that, for the better. My words here may not convince you, but I can tell you that from the events of the past month, there was no sense of surprise or betrayal from her, just... disappointment and disgust with the activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by KarenCDFL View Post
    But the bottom line was is that I told her way before we married to give us both a way out and we never hid anything from each other.
    That is fantastic that you were able to bring that about at such an early stage in your relationship. As for me, when she discovered my collection of high heels the first time around (before we were married) and asked me to simply not do that anymore, at that time, it didn't seem like a big deal to me, certainly not worth losing that amazing girl over. I'll admit when I came back to it several months later, simply hiding it may have not been the most correct course of action. I should've perhaps been more open about it then, and given her a chance to decide. But that's why I'm being honest with her about it now.

    I can understand if she can never support this or want to participate in this. And she does understand (she has said these words explicitly) that this is a part of who I am that cannot change. I just hope to get to a point where the mere fact that I occasionally do it doesn't upset her greatly.
    Last edited by jennarac; 08-07-2013 at 03:39 PM.

  25. #50
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    Jenn, any kids involved? Sorry, too lazy to read the whole thing.

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We are always trying to improve the forum to better serve the crossdresser in all of us.

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