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Thread: I could have seriously hurt him

  1. #1
    Crossdresser-At-Large BillieAnneJean's Avatar
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    I could have seriously hurt him

    Last weekend I was out in Grand Rapids, MI. There is a club on Division Street that caters to the gay crowd. It is also a great place to go when I am dressed. They treat me very well in there. Lots of humor at the bar. Probably born of adversity.

    The name of the street is appropriate.

    The west side of Division is primarily clubs and restaurants but has at least one free food kitchen.

    The east side of Division has a few homless shelters.

    Behind the clubs on the west side of Division are some more large homeless shelters.

    Behind the homeless shelters on the est side of Division are some areas going upscale.

    So here I am in the middle of a mixture of the human race. You can see what I was wearing in the photo.

    An ethnic of slim build approached me as I was walking to the club. He was obviously challenged in the social graces because his first contact with me was to proposition me. Now I could have easily caused him great pain and harm. He would have never expected a head lock from a woman or a fist in his face, maybe a knee in his crotch. I could have made him feel uncertain of his own sexual orientation by answering in my deepest male voice. But I just responded like a lady and crossed the street to group of less threatening persons. And had a nice evening.

    I don't care, I still am having a GREAT time with this. Get OUT! Have FUN! Do NOT let them win!!!!
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    Last edited by BillieAnneJean; 08-08-2013 at 11:31 AM.

  2. #2
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillieAnneJean View Post
    He was obviously challenged in the social graces as he propositioned me. Now I could have easily caused him great pain and harm.
    How were you dressed?

    I'm by no means suggesting that women deserve to be raped or abused when they dress in suggestive clothing, of course men need to be self-controlled if the woman says no. But, women who dress a certain way will send more signals than women who do not dress in a sexy manner. We all know this, and some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men.

    Maybe this guy just thought that you were available based on the way that you were dressed? If you were not sending signals by your choice of clothing, then this guy was seriously out of line for asking.
    Reine

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    Congratulations for handling that so gracefully. I imagine that attractive ladies face that situation regularly. As a guy, where I used to live, I was approached by gay men many times. I just grew a thick skin and didn't take it as an affront to my "masculinity."

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    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    I have no problem invoking my guy muscles when out if necessary. This gal is no fading petunia for sure.
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  5. #5
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    I am confused and befuddled as to what exactly was said because you didn't tell us.It couldn't have been very upsetting as you went on to enjoy the rest of the night...Not so sure you were threatened..Asking if someone is "working" usually isn't grounds for a street fight!
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  6. #6
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    It doesn't sound like a part of town I would ever go by myself and maybe not even with others.
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

  7. #7
    Senior Member mikiSJ's Avatar
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    What is an ethnic?
    When writing the next chapter in your life, start with a pencil and eraser - my first page as Miki is full of eraser marks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madeline80 View Post
    Congratulations for handling that so gracefully.
    Congratulations on handling what so gracefully? A man approached Billie, and in Billie's words "propositioned" her? Does such an action warrant, in the words of the OP, a "head lock", or a "fist in his face", or "maybe a knee in his crotch"?

    Forgive me, but I don't think it does.

  9. #9
    Aspiring Member Ms. Laura's Avatar
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    Well, she didn't knee anyone in the groin, so yes, she controlled herself. Turning to violence when not attacked could only come out poorly.

    There is just a percentage of guys who are horny and think that all guys dressed like women are also as horny as they are. I doubt the person intended offense, they just can't get their heads around a male identifying/presenting as female. Probably just ignorance of the concept that NO, we are NOT all pervs!

    You looked nice by the way.
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  10. #10
    Just a touch of class Lynn Marie's Avatar
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    A man propositioned you. To me that would be a sort of a compliment. I'd be honored that he thought I looked good enough to take home tonight. I wouldn't be afraid to go inside the club and have a drink with him as long as I made sure he understood that "I'm just not that kind of girl". I sure wouldn't be offended in the least. I like men, I are one!

  11. #11
    Senior Member Stephanie Miller's Avatar
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    Depends what he said. Unless he came right out and said something like "do you charge by the trick or by the hour?", then it could have just been his not so subtle way of trying to score with any chick.
    If he took the rejection and just walked away I may have just taken it as a weird compliment - in a way.
    There are lots of people - no matter the ethnicity - that are clueless on the art of being tactful.
    Last edited by Stephanie Miller; 08-08-2013 at 04:10 PM.

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    I think it is a SERIOUS mistake to judge people based on their LOOKS don't you? Just because HE was of slim build??? Do you know for a fact that he might not be some type of black belt? Did you know that your fist to the face would not be followed with him drawing a gun?

    I don't believe it is EVER wise to judge someone based on their looks.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikiSJ View Post
    What is an ethnic?
    I can probably guess what an ethnic is, but that was my reaction too. Funny to see in a thread related to diversity and not judging by appearances.

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    Hi Billie Anne

    I think you did the right thing. But, you're right, you must be on guard constantly. Just like any GG. When I'm out en femme, I constantly have my guard up, just in case. If I'm going too get beat up, I guarantee you that I will get in a few power slugs. I'm always ready to kick the heels off and bust out some ninja turtle moves on them I don't care what anyone says, I'm there dealing w/ them, and your not. So there

  15. #15
    Silver Member I Am Paula's Avatar
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    You got hit on, rather ungracefully. Is there more to the story?

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    Aspiring Artist Kelly DeWinter's Avatar
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    Reine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I had to read your post 6-7-8-9 times before I believed you actually wrote this ! Tell me you were drinking heavily and that someone else grabbed your keyboard and hit the send button !


    You really asked

    " How were you dressed? "

    For years or at least since Woodstock men have had it drilled into them that no matter what a woman wears men have to have 'self control', now you ... a woman are admitting to the whole world that "some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men."

    Feminists would crucify a man for asking " How were you dressed? " Even the smallest suggestion that a woman's mode of dress has anything to do with how they are perceived sexually has gotten men fired, careers ruined and so on.

    Personally I whole heatedly agree with what you said, although Gloria Steinem has probably already revoked your right to burn your Bra Card.

    Kelly
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  17. #17
    Senior Member mikiSJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flent View Post
    I can probably guess what an ethnic is, but that was my reaction too. Funny to see in a thread related to diversity and not judging by appearances.
    I also have a fair idea of what an "ethnic" is. I once worked for a manager (1975) who left the Grand Rapids area and moved to the Silicon Valley because there was too much of particular religion living in the area. (They weren't Muslim BTW!).
    When writing the next chapter in your life, start with a pencil and eraser - my first page as Miki is full of eraser marks.

  18. #18
    Fearlessly Independent RebeccaLynne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillieAnneJean View Post
    So here I am in the middle of a mixture of the human race. You can see what I was wearing in the photo.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    How were you dressed?
    Reine, I believe the OP was dressed as shown in her photo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reine
    I'm by no means suggesting that women deserve to be raped or abused when they dress in suggestive clothing, of course men need to be self-controlled if the woman says no. But, women who dress a certain way will send more signals than women who do not dress in a sexy manner. We all know this, and some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men.

    Maybe this guy just thought that you were available based on the way that you were dressed? If you were not sending signals by your choice of clothing, then this guy was seriously out of line for asking.
    I certainly don't see anything in her photo that I would consider inappropriate or scandalous. I think the male in question was simply propositioning her to see if he'd "get lucky".

    I remember reading in Playboy a long time ago about a guy that would just approach women and ask if they'd like to f***. He claimed one in ten took him up on it...

    I'm wondering whether or not she responded verbally... did you, BillieAnneJean? If so, what did you say?

  19. #19
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter View Post
    Reine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I had to read your post 6-7-8-9 times before I believed you actually wrote this ! Tell me you were drinking heavily and that someone else grabbed your keyboard and hit the send button !


    You really asked

    " How were you dressed? "

    ... although Gloria Steinem has probably already revoked your right to burn your Bra Card.
    LOL. Gloria Steinhem was a Second Wave feminist. Third Wave feminists will tell you that we have a choice. We can choose to dress in a sexy manner in order to attract men ... or not. And no one should criticize us for either choice.

    HOWEVER, we need to be real with ourselves as to what type of messages we send when we present a certain way. Someone who is covered up or dressed in loose clothing will not get the same reactions from men as someone who emphasizes her bust, her behind, and her legs. lol. All women know this and it is foolish to think otherwise.

    ... but someone above suggested that the man in question might have been attracted to the OP specifically because (s)he was a man in a dress, which I hadn't thought of and which is an entirely different kettle of fish. Very little is known and understood in our society about alternative genders, and it is unfortunate that currently, a lot of people not involved in our community believe that men who dress as women do so for sexual fetish reasons, and if they are in public it is because they are looking for action?
    Reine

  20. #20
    Aspiring Artist Kelly DeWinter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    How were you dressed?

    I'm by no means suggesting that women deserve to be raped or abused when they dress in suggestive clothing, of course men need to be self-controlled if the woman says no. But, women who dress a certain way will send more signals than women who do not dress in a sexy manner. We all know this, and some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men.

    Maybe this guy just thought that you were available based on the way that you were dressed? If you were not sending signals by your choice of clothing, then this guy was seriously out of line for asking.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    LOL. Gloria Steinhem was a Second Wave feminist. Third Wave feminists will tell you that we have a choice. We can choose to dress in a sexy manner in order to attract men ... or not. And no one should criticize us for either choice.

    HOWEVER, we need to be real with ourselves as to what type of messages we send when we present a certain way. Someone who is covered up or dressed in loose clothing will not get the same reactions from men as someone who emphasizes her bust, her behind, and her legs. lol. All women know this and it is foolish to think otherwise.

    ... but someone above suggested that the man in question might have been attracted to the OP specifically because (s)he was a man in a dress, which I hadn't thought of and which is an entirely different kettle of fish. Very little is known and understood in our society about alternative genders, and it is unfortunate that currently, a lot of people not involved in our community believe that men who dress as women do so for sexual fetish reasons, and if they are in public it is because they are looking for action?
    OK, so I'm just asking .................................................. for all the men in the world who see what they would consider "in their own opinion" an invitation to strike up a conversation based on a woman's choice of clothing, you are as a woman giving the feminist golden STAMP OF APPROVAL"

    you know i'm just provoking a response here
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  21. #21
    Patti patti.jean's Avatar
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    Good choice at least you are not in jail, I have been going to that club and part of Grand Rapids for years and have received some “complements” but they mean no harm. I was just at the club last Sunday night. Your reaction to him says more about you then him, you have no idea how this person feels or their life experience. You are looking at this from your privileged place in life.

    Grand Rapids, Michigan has been praised in Fortune, Money, and other publications as a great Midwest City and after spending only a few minutes downtown on a weekend night you would see why. The city comes alive with many venues for restaurants, bars, entertainment, and sporting events. I have been to most of the popular places in the city as Patti with no problem.

    South Division where this club is located is another renaissance area in the city that is evolving. The homeless shelters are actually a few blocks south of the club and have very good reputations for severing the community. The area where the club is located is a mixed use neighborhood with two upscale restaurants next to the club, the Rockwell's/Republic (I have been to them both and they have good reviews), there is a fine community art museum two blocks away the “Urban Institute of Contemporary Art”. There are a mix of upscale and market apartments in the area, with many more under construction, the area has a shortage of apartments. Also South Division has several art galleries many are lofts with resident artist. Several times over the summer they have a street art show in the area that is fun.

    One last note; when I go to the area I either park behind Pub 43 which is free, if a spot is available, or in the parking ramp behind the club. The parking ramp is also a mixed use building with the parking ramp on one side and the other side has upscale apartments, office space, and restaurants all next to some of the best bars and entertainment in the city. The apartments in the building are great and you have the convenience of parking your car next to your apartment on all floors.

    I would love to show anyone around Grand Rapids if they ever get a chance to make it to our great city,

    Patti
    Last edited by patti.jean; 08-08-2013 at 10:52 PM.
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  22. #22
    Crossdresser-At-Large BillieAnneJean's Avatar
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    Patti,
    Your first paragraph makes some assumptions.

    When I was a kid, we scrounged trash in the alley to burn in the Franklin fireplace to keep warm in the winter. We hung blankets over the door openings to the adjacent rooms to keep the heat in the room with the stove because there were no doors. I usually did not get any new toys for Christmas as we could not afford it. My Mom cleaned up rummage sale toys for our gifts. The house had roof teaks and I remember my mom pasting grocery bags over the holes in the plaster to keep the cold air out. We ate a lot of potato soup. Instead of candy, we had cabbage heart or a slice of raw potato. I know the feeling of being shunned as poor trash. I had to work my way through high school. I bought my own clothes, car, gas, insurance. When I got out of the service the only job I could find was washing dishes in a hospital. I made $7 less a week than if I went on welfare. I had enough money to pay my rent and enough for gas. The ladies in the kitchen kept me fed. They were like my moms and sisters. When I was going to get married, I invited them all. But my father in law flipped out and I was not allowed to invite anyone except my immediate family. I had to go back to those black ladies, and they WERE ladies, and tell them that I could not invite anyone. I had to work my way through college. I remember when the total asset I had was a nineteen cent box of macaroni and cheese. I had to ask the college to let me slide a week or two until I could earn enough to pay my tuition. When I graduated I had $5.00 to last two weeks. In grade school I was beat up by the Jewish kids, the German kids, and finally in high school by the black kids. We moved a lot and the predominate group had to assert their authority. But I raised my children to not see color and their lives are all the much better for it.

    I know far better than most what it is to be hungry, with no prospect any time soon for financial gain. I know what it is to have to scrounge for work. I never had a safety net, a guaranteed check.

    Believe me I KNOW what it is like to be without. That has driven me my whole life.

    I never judge anyone by their appearance. Everyone deserves respect until they prove they don't deserve it. That is why I cut him a wide swath. I behaved like a lady. He behaved in a socially inept manner.

    It is unfortunate to assume that just because someone looks prosperous that the person has always been priveledged. It is also unfortunate to assume that the person looks at everyone else from a priveledged place.

    Sorry but your first paragraph does require an answer. You are wrong.
    Billie

  23. #23
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly DeWinter View Post
    OK, so I'm just asking .................................................. for all the men in the world who see what they would consider "in their own opinion" an invitation to strike up a conversation based on a woman's choice of clothing, you are as a woman giving the feminist golden STAMP OF APPROVAL"

    you know i'm just provoking a response here

    We all do this. We all get a first impression based on how another person looks, it's the only thing we have to go by until we get to know them. Some people scream out, "I want attention", while others give the distinct message, "I'm not interested". I don't know how BillieAnne was dressed, I was going by her avatar, which shows a suggestive pose.

    Men are men and if I'm in a clubby part of town at night, dressed in a party outfit that shows off boobs, legs, or tush, the message will be that I'm looking to have some fun. This isn't to say that a man is allowed to touch me. But if he asks if I'm interested, I can't get all insulted. Context is important here. Gosh, if I was to get insulted every time someone came on to me (in my youth) in places like that, I'd have an ulcer. A simple "no, thank you" suffices.

    This is why I asked what BillieAnne was wearing.
    Reine

  24. #24
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    What are you wearing? is not a sexist remark, but quite a valid one on Reine's part.
    Not entering into Kelly's argument but I think you were appropriately dressed to act like a lady and walk away.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    We all do this. We all get a first impression based on how another person looks, it's the only thing we have to go by until we get to know them. Some people scream out, "I want attention", while others give the distinct message, "I'm not interested". I don't know how BillieAnne was dressed, I was going by her avatar, which shows a suggestive pose.

    Men are men and if I'm in a clubby part of town at night, dressed in a party outfit that shows off boobs, legs, or tush, the message will be that I'm looking to have some fun. This isn't to say that a man is allowed to touch me. But if he asks if I'm interested, I can't get all insulted. Context is important here. Gosh, if I was to get insulted every time someone came on to me (in my youth) in places like that, I'd have an ulcer. A simple "no, thank you" suffices.

    This is why I asked what BillieAnne was wearing.
    Reine - All your tap dancing is hard to buy. You assertion is that Billie Anne deserved her proposition because of her dress. Sorry, but I do not think that anyone deserves to be propositioned because of their appearance. Male or female.

    BTW, BillieAnne appears to have been dresses nicely.

    BTW, what is an ethnic?

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