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Thread: Am I a real woman?

  1. #26
    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErinSassyPants View Post
    FurPus63, All of that is irrelevant. Soft skin, breasts, smooth legs, genitals they are all irrelevant to being a woman. You are a real women if you are. That's it. You can be a "real woman" with a penis, no breasts, hair everywhere and skin like sand paper. If you love having soft skin etc, then wonderful do it for you and enjoy it. But it does not make you a woman and not doing enough of it doesn't take back your woman card. If you looked inside your heart and soul and found a woman then you are a real woman. You don't have to earn it or live up to it.
    Bless you Erin. Although I've been saying something similar, there are those (most?) in this section who will categorically disagree with you. I can't even punch my TS card in this section, let alone a woman card, despite what is in my heart & soul at the core of my very being...present during every waking moment since I became self-aware at a very young age. Regardless, I don't believe OP will have such an issue given she's 24/7, on HRT, etc.

    By your measure Erin, OP is a woman and her BF said something very insensitive. I think his being CD is kind of irrelevant other than the fact that perhaps he should have known better. Or should he??? How would he know any of the nuance of how we feel in our hearts if he hasn't been educated in such things. That's really no different than any other Muggle out there. And it's really no different from the ignorance within our own community that grants trans and/or woman status based on transition without consideration of anything else in the person's situation.
    Like a corpse deep in the earth I'm so alone, restless thoughts torment my soul, as fears they lay confirmed, but my life has always been this way - Virginia Astley, "Some Small Hope" (1986)
    Sunlight falls, my wings open wide. There's a beauty here I cannot deny - David Sylvian, "Orpheus" (1987)

  2. #27
    Just A Simple Girl Michelle.M's Avatar
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    Wow, I scarcely know where to begin! This whole episode is just wrong in so many ways.

    First, the comments others have made here that being a woman has nothing to do with body parts or putting on makeup, soft skin, wardrobe, etc are spot on.

    In her book "Whipping Girl" Julia Serano makes a succinct point about being a woman, and in short it goes like this:

    - I perceive myself to be a woman

    - I live as a woman

    - Others perceive me to be a woman (implied here is that I am regarded and treated accordingly)

    You get to define the details of what each of these things mean, and there's nothing here about conforming to standards of dress and behavior (although doing so often helps to minimize questions).

    So, the answer to your question is "Yes".

    Quote Originally Posted by arbon View Post
    I think there a lot of CD's who can only see transsexuals as something like CD's themselves. They can't understand how you are a real woman.
    Not just CDs but everyone has a tendency to transfer our own prejudices and standards on to others. The more evolved among us have acquired techniques to overcome that. Your boyfriend has not. But I think Arbon's comment should be taken seriously. And until the BF gets his act together then Yes, you DO need to educate him.

    But here's the bad news. He seems to be uneducable, so I am afraid that you may be already at the "keep him or dump him" stage of the relationship.

    Someone once told me that how you express yourself in times of stress, crisis or danger reveals who you really are inside. If that's true then he has revealed something about himself that you really don't need in your life.
    Last edited by Michelle.M; 08-10-2013 at 09:10 AM.
    I've gone to find myself. If I should return before I get back keep me here to wait for me so I don't go back out and miss myself when I return.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErinSassyPants View Post
    If you looked inside your heart and soul and found a woman then you are a real woman. You don't have to earn it or live up to it.
    Erin, I am very impressed with your thoughts. Will you be my friend?

  4. #29
    Member bas1985's Avatar
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    the whole thread reminds me of the duck test

    If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

    Of course the inner is important, when we match at least to some degree the inner with the outer... well, we're done.

    We are duc... ehm, women.

  5. #30
    Paulette-Passion FurPus63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryn View Post
    Forgiveness is the glue that holds relationships together. There will always be times when people misspeak or say something without considering all the ramifications. Is this relationship worth gluing back together? The choice is yours.
    Who said anything about us breaking up or me not being able to forgive him? Of course I forgave him. We are madly in-love with each other and it was easy to do so. I was just hurt at the time and now have come to realize he was trying to give me a compliment.

    Quote Originally Posted by KellyJameson View Post
    The doubly sad thing is he was probably trying to pay you a compliment while leaving you feeling insulted.
    This is so true and thanks for your imput. After talking to him about it, it was clear he meant it as a compliment. I'm so sensitive right now (on HRT) and was always sensitive to begin with. I like being sensitve though and sometimes it can cause problems that otherwise might not have been an issue. I have to stay in touch with my feelings and own them. So thanks again for what you said here.
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 08-12-2013 at 04:21 PM. Reason: You know the rules about multiposting and about quoting

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin View Post
    ... Isn't CD all about pretending to be a woman even if you express variance from the paradigm? ...
    Yes. One way I've seen this summarized is that the difference is transition vs transgression (of gender norms). A transsexual has a drive and desire to transition. A CD, transgender, gender variant person, etc. wants to retain their birth sex and gender identity, but also needs to press the experience and sense of gender transgression.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticLady View Post
    ... You may not have a vagina, but your emotional outburst says.........Total Woman
    Wow... That was incredibly sexist. I wonder - Would you say that in a group of "real women"?

    Quote Originally Posted by bas1985 View Post
    I think that the expression "real woman" is an oxymoron.
    ...
    they are simple concepts. ...
    I don't know about it being an oxymoron, but I agree that "woman" can be too simple. I can accept it as a shorthand for gender identity, but the term connotes a developed adult female identity. The difficulty here for those still in transition, especially early on, is that such development has yet to take place, despite having lived to adulthood (many years, in my case). There is female identity and some aspects of that dovetail nicely with my adult experience, but other aspects are foreign and will be until (presumably) RLE at the earliest.
    Last edited by LeaP; 08-13-2013 at 11:26 AM.
    Lea

  7. #32
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    To piggyback onto ErinSassyPants (again ), I want to share that I miscarried a child 25 years ago. While it was happening, in addition to my abject grief, I felt ashamed. I honestly felt as if I had not fulfilled my role as "a real woman".

    Where did this come from? I consider myself to be a feminist, yet at a primal moment in my life I felt as if I hadn't measured up and I had disappointed everyone around me.

    We can't discount the power of socialization .. the notion that we must fulfill this or that expectation in order to be a real woman, none of which makes any difference other than the gender that we internally align with. At the same time, like others have said, everyone is judged no matter what gender, we even judge ourselves.
    Reine

  8. #33
    Silver Member Angela Campbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaP View Post

    Wow... That was incredibly sexist. I wonder - Would you say that in a group of "real women"?


    I think she just did.............
    All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?

  9. #34
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    @Ellen Yes. Exactly. Yet I would hope Victoria's answer is no ...
    Lea

  10. #35
    My Ship has sailed? Barbara Ella's Avatar
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    As to the OP. You are a .............. And it is your, and only your decision as to what you put in the blank section. You cannot be true to yourself unless you stand proud and proclaim, which i think you did quite well and convincingly.

    Glad you two are back together and a slip of the tongue, and emotional reaction (and emotional does not mean wrong) separate you.

    It is all about the internals and the struggle to reconcile with the externals. Which is most important? I guess it is all about balancing, and everyone has a different balance, but the goal is the same, and when someone reaches their point, and can proclaim they are .......... I am happy for them.

    I know,and have no doubt that I am female. I put that to my internals, and with HRT, my body chemistry now tells my internals it is female oriented/changing. I have told my wife I will never be a true woman, and that is my balance for my externals to match my internals, and she is happy with that, and i am happy, and for right now I can live with this. I have no idea what my future may bring.

    You are woman dear.

    Barbara
    He (she) who would learn to fly one day must first learn to stand and walk and run and climb and dance.
    - Friedrich Nietzche -
    I may never get to fly like the other girls, but I do so want to dance, so I continue to climb.

  11. #36
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MysticLady
    ... You may not have a vagina, but your emotional outburst says.........Total Woman





    Wow... That was incredibly sexist. I wonder - Would you say that in a group of "real women"?
    Really, sexist does not even begin to describe what this is. It's like a misogynist roundhouser (if that is a word). It's like hitting everything in sight with one huge swing. It insults men, women, women with a transsexual history just to name a few. It attaches an incredible value judgement (with huge negative connotations) to women that is so swamped with privilege using the very tools of misogynist behavior. Wow! Nice going there.....
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  12. #37
    Silver Member Inna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FurPus63 View Post
    I take hormones, put make-up on every day, style my hair, etc..., all the things a woman does to present herself to the world. My skin is soft, I've developed breasts, my legs are smooth as a baby's bottom, I'm developing hips and a butt that's shaping my body more and more with each day that passes. The one thing that's missing is a vagina. So does that mean I'm NOT a real woman?
    question asked million times, and perhaps as hard to answer.

    I am known to state my truth as it comes, without much of a buffer, I like it that way, question is, is everyone else as enthusiastic?.......LOL

    We are who we are, however, if anyone would take a second to ponder the question at hand, Who is that person I tend to be? In fact, being and doing are intertwined within close weave, inseparable, and to most onlookers, and by that I mean, those who are around us, we are a conglomerate of societal conditioning.

    Can someone prepare them selves in the utmost female fashion yet remain male in the scrutinizing eyes of the societal conformity, I say yes!

    Never mind that WE feel entirely female within, without, we are, whom onlooking crowd sees us being!

    To exude entirety of femaleness takes life time of growing up, assimilation, mimicking, conditioning, as I see it, only few are able to encompass such immense copletness within short period of time, for the rest, the transgender condition, shall remain their truth.
    Last edited by Inna; 08-13-2013 at 05:58 PM.

  13. #38
    Member Juliea661's Avatar
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    Paulette, I'm just a simple CD, yet when I fully dress I feel 100% girl. So, my simple pea brain say that you must then be 1000% girl. And if I may add,I am constantly amazed at the courage that you and others on similar paths exhibit in order to be who you truly are.
    I believe we are who and what we think, feel, and present, the rest is just "stuff"...
    I can feel your hurt, and I'm soooo sorry you had to suffer it. As you said, I would have expected more from someone who should know better...
    Sending you hugs and good wishes, Jules
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Julie Anderson

    "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I--
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticLady View Post
    This sounds like a real woman too me. You may not have a vagina, but your emotional outburst says.........Total Woman
    OK, I'm just going to come straight out and say it.

    Comments like the one above, whether joking or not, add nothing of value to discussions in the TS forum. There are many people here who are dealing with incredibly big transexual issues and they rely on this forum for real-world advice and support. It is disheartening that this small part of the site is trolled by some people who use it like their personal tranny-wanna-be Facebook, posting whatever that comes to mind, seemingly to draw attention and make themselves feel like "one of the girls".

    Is it possible that there can be changes made to keep this forum free of the poseurs?

    Sincerely,
    Simone.

    (ducking for cover)

  15. #40
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    S1m0ne and the others. In my not so humble opinion, Victoria's words were clumsy and spoken like true misogynist, but were well intentioned.

    If you feel that the post was problematic, I would encourage you to ask yourself why you never reported it (please do not derail this thread by answering here).

    This forum is not Safe Haven, it is the TS Forum and will remain open for all members to post in within the rules.

    As for excluding "poseurs", that is such a subjective criteria as to be totally unworkable even if it were not for my previous sentence. A lot of TS members and a lot of questioning members have been accused here at one time or another of being exactly that - please ask yourself if you would have them excluded as well (again do not answer in this thread).
    Check out this link if you are wondering about joining Safe Haven.

    This above all: To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any

    Galileo said "You cannot teach a man anything" and they accuse ME of being sexist

    Never ascribe to malice that which can be easily explained by sheer stupidity

  16. #41
    Administrator Tamara Croft's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure she meant it as a compliment, some people just take things the wrong way. Have all of you actually read the updated post from the OP? she says the comment her b/f said to her was actually meant as a compliment... and she forgave him for it. Now, that's her b/f who made a horrible comment... she forgave him... one of our members makes a fumbled comment, you all lash out at her... what exactly is the point? There is none, show some love, have forgiveness in your hearts, reach out to people and be kind... you'll love yourself so much better

    Oh... and stop derailing this thread, or I'ma show you my kinda love... capiche?
    Administrator

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  17. #42
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    On the OP: of course you are a real woman. But your reaction shows just how vulnerable we all can be, how easily it is to be undermined. And most of all, that those who can undermine us the most are those who are the closest.

    I'm not going to judge him on a single statement. None of us should be judged on a single statement. It may have been a joke, a matter of emphasis, an unthinking cliché, or any number of other things. The pain comes from tapping into our insecurities. Couple that insecurity with the slightest suggestion that such a comment indicates something sinister in someone's thinking, and there you go.

    I believe I might have reacted as you did initially. On reflection, I might be more inclined to view it as a poor attempt at comedy through combining a cultural cliché with some mild sarcasm.
    Lea

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1m0ne View Post
    (ducking for cover)
    , trouble maker oops, your wonderful Simone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rianna Humble View Post
    S1m0ne and the others. In my not so humble opinion, Victoria's words were clumsy and spoken like true misogynist, but were well intentioned.
    Thank You Rianna, Interesting though, a misogynist that dresses as a woman. Something to think about, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara Croft View Post
    I'm pretty sure she meant it as a compliment, some people just take things the wrong way.
    I did mean it as a compliment. As far as the taking things the wrong way, that does seem to be an issue on this forum. Why, I wonder.( don't answer)

  19. #44
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    Yes you are a woman, its whats on the inside that matters no matter what anyone says. Your bf sure put his foot in his mouth sorry you had to hear that it s unpleasant. Just read the book Mirror Image by Nancy Hunt, its an older book, but it may help, amazon has it maybe your local library system and use to kindle it. It is worth the time to read. Hope this helps not just you but anyone else.

  20. #45
    Member Cheryl123's Avatar
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    You are a woman, Paulette. You've always been one. Even if you could not make a transition, could not transform you body (and millions of transsexuals throughout the world cannot) you would not be any less a woman. I am sorry for your BF's tactless remark. Practicing forgiveness is important, not so much for his sake but for your own. Anger is a poison which will eat you up if you hold on to it. Forgiveness is the only antidote. Sending you love.

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