"Like a woman"

[ErinSassyPants]

I have seen many people on these forums say things about being treated like a woman.

So my question is, what does that mean do you?

and where did you get that perception?

First, I am interested in what people mean by that in a social way.

Second, there is an undercurrent I perceive here and on another site quite often that being treated "like a woman" includes being treated as the submissive partner in the bedroom. I'm not asking for any sexual details, you all know what's allowed on this forum better than I do so please follow that. I'm asking about the dynamics and attitudes not the behaviors and details.

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

[Lorileah]

Wow this could get interesting When I thin about being treated like a woman, it is more the old fashioned treat her like a lady thing. Hold the door, walk on the outside, open the car door (at least when we are on a date...later after we get married..., hold my chair. You know all that stuff that no one wants anymore It is hard for me to let others do this for two reasons. First i was taught to do that growing up (half the time it isn't even gender oriented...I hold the door for everyone) and other other half is because I feel that women are equal to me and things like buying drinks (while i love every minute of it) can go both ways. I am an independent woman myself so while the gestures are appreciated, I don't hold stock in them.

On the sexual side I am sub anyway but it isn't because of my gender identity. It is what I am. I do like my partner to take the initiative but I think that is because I have been shot down so many times I don't know when to initiate it myself anymore.

:addendum: I don't think most the members here would really like being treated like most women get treated. Lower pay, less respect, being abused, being treated like they are less intelligent, less skilled, less logical. I think everyone wants the best side of that, not the REAL side

[RADER]

Lorileah, You are correct in that most women get treated like 2 ND class people.
Lower pay, lesser job status, doing less than desirable jobs, Etc.
Being treated like a "Lady" is holding the door, Pull out the chair, all those
things you where thought when you where growing up.
Women deserve respect, and should get a lot more than they do.
Rader

[RebeccaLynne]

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

I feel both partners should be spontaneous and adventurous. By that I mean neither should be expected to behave as either the leader or the follower. Both being free to communicate whatever they'd like to experience in the spirit of keeping intimacies fresh and exciting.

It's long been my belief that we're equals, and that we should be open to entertaining our partner's desires and fantasies as they unfold.

I really think a lot of my flexability in those areas comes from my being a crossdresser... just another plus!

[Wildaboutheels]

I have no desire whatsoever to be treated "like a woman".

But an easy guess for many here, [based on both the popular threads as well the P&V gallery] is that that sentiment equates to simply having that "power" that women have. The power of being "wanted and/or desired" simply by how they LOOK. HOW they present themselves. Men have "limited" clothing choices, because their "success" with women, will depend only slightly on HOW they [a man] is dressed. A beautiful woman CAN dress down or hide her figure should she CHOOSE to. She will lose much of her "power' by doing so.

Many women don't fully realize this "power" thing, and others exploit it at every available opportunity.

[Kate Simmons]

For myself it's not being "treated as a woman" per se as much as it is being shown respect for who I am as a person. Sometimes that includes when I'm presenting en femme. No one automatically deserves respect,however, it has to be earned based on who we are and what we do, regardless of what we look like. For myself it has nothing to do with sex. That's a whole other "ball game".

[Beverley Sims]

Forget sex and submissive in the bedroom.
Opening the door and mannerisms toward me when dressed is what I look for.
If i am with a group of GG's the eventual switch to female talk instead if just being included in the conversation as a man in a dress is always an achievement.
Sometimes this never happens as I can be accepted right away.
That boosts the ego and makes me feel more comfortable.
A higher sense of achievement so to speak.

[tiffanyjo89]

To me, the idea of treating a woman "like a lady" typically implies that women are weaker. I think the saying should be changed and made to apply to all people equally, "treating others with respect." In the older days, a man opening and closing the car door for a woman might be a side effect of the way the car doors were. Also, if a person is within a reasonable amount of distance from the door I'll hold it open (or at least push it open further) for anyone, a big guy or a small girl.

I think what a fair amount of trans/CD people might mean when they say they want to be treated like a woman is that they want to be seen as a woman, and even if a person is "being nice," they want to be treated with a level of respect. I believe everyone is deserving of a base level of respect automatically, but that a person's actions can positively or negatively affect how I treat them.

[kimdl93]

For me it's nothing more than the simple courtesies extended, like a gentleman opening a door for me. Or being part of a conversation with GGs and feeling quite a part of it. On the physical side, my wife and I are simply equal partners sharing enjoyment of intimacy in similar ways.

[Brooklyn]

I adore women so much, it is sometimes a little hard for me to consider most men as equals, but whether it’s getting called ma’am, or having a guy pay for my drink, or getting to be the follower in a dance, or even slapped on the rear, I absolutely love it. Maybe this attention and interaction is why I feel compelled to go out, because I don’t dress up at home (why bother?) and often feel invisible in everyday life.

As far as the bedroom, it has been so long... but my recollection is that most women do prefer to be “taken”. I’m a dancer and think more about leader / follower rather than dominant / submissive. In ballroom, the guy initiates movements that will make the lady look as good as she can. I think sex and dance have lots in common. You can’t have both partners trying to lead or both wanting to follow. Both roles have power, but they are distinct and co-dependent. It would be fun to be gay and get to have things both ways, but I’m not wired that way.

[whowhatwhen]

I never grew up thinking that way luckily, I guess growing up in the 90s-2000s meant I skipped a lot of the whole act like a lady kind of thing.
To me it just seems like a part of a generation that grew up when women "knowing their place" was the norm, you know, like that old home-ec textbook that said to have a drink ready for your husband when he gets home from work.

Not saying that's what people are doing, but when you grow up with that around you it's going to have at least some influence.
I grew up male and as such some parts of me will have ingrained stereotypical things and things on a subconscious level that I will simply not see unless it's pointed out.

Once I started learning more about things like the gay community and learned that even the biggest, burliest, toughest man can be submissive then the whole stereotypical thing crashed down.
The thing is though that these ideas get almost no exposure, off the top how many times do you hear about women who are dominant/tops or submissive men?

Never.
Anything other than 1 man and 1 woman missionary lights out no touching is just not talked about.

Even if I were just a gay man I'd still be submissive/bottom in the bedroom, it's kinda moot though since I'm not interested as long as I still look like a man. So being "taken as a woman" more means being myself, and not in the context of women being weaker and submissive.
Also I can't physically so I'm bitter about that too, just a bit.

[Leona]

Blame me for injecting politics.

I absolutely in no way want to ever be treated like a woman. I want to get paid what the job's worth. I want to be able to choose my own health care practices. I don't want my spouse to tell me what to think or how to vote. I want to ride a bike that's structurally stable rather than a bike that's modified to accomodate a dress (didn't see that coming, did you?). I want to be accepted as attractive no matter what my size is. I want my feelings to matter. I want my opinion to mean something. I want to be acknowledged as a sentient being.

I'll stop there. I have problems with the phrase "treat like a woman", like women should be treated differently than anybody else. We should always treat people with respect and dignity. We should always listen to their concerns, and we should always offer a helping hand. Your gender is irrelevant in all of these things.

whowhatwhen: My wife and I often talk about our non-missionary lights-on adventures, since that's mostly what we do (we both find missionary boring, and we both want to see the other person)

[whowhatwhen]

I should've clarified that I meant the stuck-up general public and certain groups who want to pretend sexuality doesn't exist.

[Leona]

I've had the misfortune of being in bed with members of that group. What a nightmare! I hope I never find myself there.

If I do, I know what to do about it. I'll put on her dress.

On a side note, my wife is usually a bit submissive, but sometimes she can be a downright domme. I love that about her, even if that's not exactly sexually compatible with me, but we usually manage to work something out, and then back in, and then out again, and then back in, etc.

[Lynn Marie]

In boy mode I'm dominate, in girl mode I'm submissive. It's just the way I feel, not something I do.

[divamissz]

To me it's the public perception of being a woman, and how society allows women to have certain liberties. Like how we dress or how a man will hold the door for you or being called "ma'am" or "miss." In the bedroom, being a woman to me means lovemaking that's more sensual, more erotic and less focused on the immediate "getting it done."

I like it when a man opens a car door for me, or picks up the check without hesitation. I like it when a woman asks where I got my outfit from and you know it's because she likes the style. I like it when I'm called "ma'am" and when another woman treats me like one of the girls.

Because nothing makes you feel better than to be one of the girls.

[susmitha]

For me, being treated like a woman in the bed room means I should be treated just like any real genetic woman - i.e. as the female partner. I like to be soft, smooth and submissive. I want my partner to take initiative and make love to me. I want to to feel weak and vulnerable during intercourse. I like to be the passive / receptive partner at the bottom, just allowing my partner to be in the driver's seat and play with my body, without giving me any pain.

[Sabrina133]

My parent raised us (two girls and one genetic male - that would be me) to respect everyone equally, with dignity and acceptance. He taught my two sisters to fight for what they wanted, demand equality and to be independent. At the same time, my Mother tempered my fathers training by teaching them to be subtle in their approach without being submissive or kowtowing to anyone. I think thats why they are both successful in their chosen fields and in their lives. Since I've met my SO, I've come to put her in the same catagory as my sisters and my Mom. What is more, they are that way without haviing lost their grasp of their emotionality, tenderness, caring, femininity that I admire about women - they've maintained it without being vulnerable. SO when i say i admire women, i look at my role models (two sisters, mom and SO) and try to emulate them.

[GinaD]

My interpretation of being treated "like a woman" would involve simple things like a man holding a door open for me, looking at me appreciatively, or treating me in a protective or gentle manner. As a man, I find I have to me more proactive on dates or "in the bedroom", with the expectation of planning an interesting time out, usually paying the freight, and taking the lead in the bedroom. As Gina, I get to be on the other side of the coin. I get more attention from a man as Gina than I usually get as my male persona from a woman. I also like being submissive in the bedroom, and being appreciated for what I bring to the event. It usually isn't the same in my male persona. I don't know if that makes sense.

[ErinSassyPants]

Thank you everyone. I see quite a bit of stuff that makes my head want to explode but I don't think it's fair to ask a question and then get on people about their answers. So I will just say that it's absolutely fascinating to me how very different some of your ideas of what being "the women" in bed means from my experience of being a woman actually is.

Now I know that not all women have my dominant streak but I have spoken with 100s of women about sexual things and the majority are into equality in bed, NOT submission. They want it to be a dance where who leads flows back and forth.

Then there are some who are wired submissive, not because they are women but because that is how they are wired and it doesn't necessarily mean they are submissive socially, often the women I know who label themselves as very submissive in bed are not submissive at all in any other situation. Thinking about it makes me smile actually because I've seen men who didn't understand how NOT submissive they were in all other areas. Talk about some kick ass ladies.

I think more women would show dominant streaks if our society didn't do so much crap to women's attitudes about themselves and their sexuality.

Leona, I appreciate your comments about not wanting to be treated "like a woman" very much.

[BOBBI G.]

As a transgender girl (someday to be woman), I really don't care if I am treated as a woman, as such. I am, for the most part, out to the world. I no longer own any "boy clothes", and am a girl all the time. I am in the process of going through gender therapy and the start of the second puberty. All I really want is to be treated with the same respect and any human deserves.

Bobbi

[linda allen]

Being treated like a woman?

It's going to be different for each of us based on where we are with our crossdressing.

For me, it's a male holding the door for me or stepping out of the way as I'm walking on the sidewalk. Since I'm not out of the house that often and not interacting with people except passing by, that's about it.

The bedroom? That could be very different for many of us. Since I'm married (to a woman), it doesn't really apply. She's the woman, in the end, I'm the man.

[sometimes_miss]

The association of feeling as if a female during sex with being the submissive, or receptive one is pretty obvious. Recent studies even indicate that most women prefer the bottom position of 'doggy' during sex. Also, female is more conducive to being the re-active partner, simply because if the guy doesn't have an erection, the woman isn't going to be able to initiate intercourse. So it's more 'natural' for the female to make herself available when the male is ready for intercourse. Does that help?

[whowhatwhen]

Thank you everyone. I see quite a bit of stuff that makes my head want to explode but I don't think it's fair to ask a question and then get on people about their answers. So I will just say that it's absolutely fascinating to me how very different some of your ideas of what being "the women" in bed means from my experience of being a woman actually is.

It is fair though, IMO these things need to be explored so that they can be filtered down through subsequent generations.
What you're going to see is just a product of how society raises men, even transpeople will carry it with them.

The whole woman == submissive and man == dominant thing is so deeply rooted, there is no chance in hell you'd have a guy with his buddies saying that he loves getting pegged by his wife.
We're all still being conditioned to think that men == power and that it should remain as such, luckily it's beginning to fade but some people are still embracing this and even taking it to extremes.

I had an argument with my brother a few months ago where I questioned him why it always has to be the man with the power in the relationship and his response was that "it's just how things have always been."
This came from someone who is very liberal too so it's way more complex than it seems on the surface.

I'll ask a reverse question though.
Are women brought up to be the submissive partners?

[Oddlee]

I would say "people" deserve respect, and should get a lot more than they do.