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Thread: Perhaps It May Be About The Clothing

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    Perhaps It May Be About The Clothing

    Clothing! It keeps us warm, protects us from the elements, helps to identify who and what we are and serves to cover up our modesty. But how did it evolve into such an elaborate and vital part of our every day existence? What was the beginning of this ritual of covering up nature? If we look to the biblical references in the book of Genesis it's all about apples, snakes, sin and fig leaves. Other experts speculate as to why we didn't evolve as hairy creatures like other mammals, or they emphasize our opposable thumbs and superior intellect as contributing to our clothing "fix". Still others claim that our migratory nature necessitated a quick solution to the problems of protection from the environment and that we used our intelligence to provide solutions rather than wait for evolution. Whatever theory we examine, the biblical one is the only one that addresses the issue of modesty resulting from shame and guilt. In that context there is a marked similarity between dressing and crossdressing. The only difference is we hide our crossdressing rather than our body.

    So where would we be if Adam had not eaten that apple, or none of the evolutionary forces had led us into slavery to such habilements, including makeup, jewelry and hair styling, while all other technological progress had occured as it did? This is a question that would be particularly relevant to our community which after all is based in large part upon how we dress. The answers depend upon where we sit on that imaginary scale between the extremes of female impersonation and transexuality.

    Let's look at crossdressing first. Those who, like me, dress occasionally in female clothing for reasons such as adventure, excitement, escapism, curiosity, artistic expression, or giving vent to the so-called feminine side of our personality would be out of luck without being aware of it. Crossdressing for any of us would simply not exist since dressing would not exist. There would be no basis for any curiosity and our need for adventure or venting of certain emotional needs would likely be satisfied by other activities and experiences.

    Female impersonation could exist, but only in a very limited form, emphasizingg things like voice, mannerisms and so on. Much of the impact would be lost without the imagery of clothing. By the same reasoning "drag" would fall flat without the excesses created by clothing.

    Transexuality would still exist, as we would still be aware of the existence of the two prime sexes, and how we identify as belonging to our own genetic or assigned sex or the opposite one. Perhaps the visual images surrounding us, unimpeded by the cover-up of clothing, would increase that awareness of our feelings of identification.

    Androgyny might be in a similar position to crossdressing. Regardless of our crossdressing tendencies, everyone possesses a blend of traits and characteristics that could be referred to as being either masculine or feminine. In other words, every man has his feminine side and vice versa. Cultural conditioning tries to teach men to suppress these feminine tendencies, particularly as they might apply to appearance and mannerisms. Without clothing, many of the restrictions to feminine expression would not exist. The androgynist might just be a bit freer to be himself, without thinking about it.

    Finally, we have transgender people, who unlike the crossdressers, sense a degree of identification as female, but unlike the transexuals have little or no desire to make physical changes except in those cases where desired changes can be achieved by means of hormones. Would these individuals be in the same position as the crossdressers, less aware of their identity conflicts because of the lack of such visual evidence as clothing, or would they be more like the transexuals becoming more aware because of that same absence of clothing?

    We often see a lot of objection to statements such as "It's all about the clothing", from all sectors of the community, but without being able to experience our behaviours in the complete absence of clothing, we cannot support that objection. In the absence of clothing, would we still pursue our need to express our femininity, our sense of gender or our rights? Would we still seek to be understood and accepted? Perhaps it actually is more about the clothing and our appearance than any of the reasons we may claim, whether we are crossdressers or transgender. I don't have the answers. What are your thoughts?

    Veronica

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veronica27 View Post
    We often see a lot of objection to statements such as "It's all about the clothing", from all sectors of the community, but without being able to experience our behaviours in the complete absence of clothing, we cannot support that objection. In the absence of clothing, would we still pursue our need to express our femininity, our sense of gender or our rights? Would we still seek to be understood and accepted? Perhaps it actually is more about the clothing and our appearance than any of the reasons we may claim, whether we are crossdressers or transgender. I don't have the answers. What are your thoughts?

    Whatever propelled you to cross the gender divide by wearing women's clothes, would still be there even if we all lived in a nudist colony. You would just find other ways to do this. You might adopt a woman's hairstyle, or other ways that a woman might adorn herself.

    .. and adorn she would. There is overwhelming visual evidence that men and women wish to differentiate themselves and only one of the ways is through wearing different clothes. Even if there were no clothing or jewelry, humans would find different ways, perhaps some form of body painting. And if there was no body painting and no adornment whatsoever and if everyone grew their hair long, in other words everyone was completely 'au naturel', I'm assuming that men would also not shave their beards or body hair. So, you would likely want to shave your face and body to look more like the women.
    Reine

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    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    It mostly depends upon who we are as a person I would say and just how comfortable we are with ourselves and expressing our feelings with or without clothes. If we are being intimate with someone usually clothes are not involved, so if we were to depend on clothing to make us feel "feminine" in that instance it would be a dismal failure. We can use clothes to assuage our feelings but in the end it's more about the feelings than what we are wearing, at least to myself it is.
    Second star to the right and straight on till morning

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    Member Richelle423's Avatar
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    Veronica, I thought we crossdressers fall under the transgender umbrella though we do it either full time or part time. JMO. Though we have feminine feelings and tendencies some of us have to OR choose to remain a male for unspecified reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veronica27
    Those who, like me, dress occasionally in female clothing for reasons such as adventure, excitement, escapism, curiosity, artistic expression, or giving vent to the so-called feminine side of our personality would be out of luck without being aware of it. Crossdressing for any of us would simply not exist since dressing would not exist. There would be no basis for any curiosity and our need for adventure or venting of certain emotional needs would likely be satisfied by other activities and experiences.
    Congratulations on a beautiful essay. It takes courage to explain differences on this site. Just ask ME…

    You have described it well – some of us dress for adventure, excitement, escapism, curiosity, and artistic expression. It never crossed (pardon the pun) my mind to wear women’s clothing until the idea presented itself one day. Goodness knows I was curious, but it took me forever to realize that I COULD do that, if I was careful. Crossdressing became my little secret (and precious) world, escapism on a grand scale, yet kept within bounds for personal safety. I still “do it” like that, because I never had any ambitions outside of adventure. Nothing is as adventurous than being a boy, yet wearing girl’s clothing, simply for the thrill. I never get tired of it …

    Anyway, thank you for making me feel less alone...

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    Jayme jayme357's Avatar
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    What a wonderful discussion. I agonize through volumes of trivia to occasionally discover pearls of wisdom such as this. It just seems to make it all worthwhile.

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    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Freddy, if it never crossed your mind to dress before the opportunity presented itself, do you think it possible that in Veronica's world of no clothing, no adornment, and everything else au naturel, it wouldn't have crossed your mind to shave until the opportunity presented itself?
    Reine

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD
    Freddy, if it never crossed your mind to dress before the opportunity presented itself, do you think it possible that in Veronica's world of no clothing, no adornment, and everything else au naturel, it wouldn't have crossed your mind to shave until the opportunity presented itself?
    I HAD to shave, but I never had to crossdress. I never thought the latter was a possibility, not even in my wildest dreams, but it happened anyway. How can I, a male, explain to you, a GG, why shaving is not an “opportunity that presented itself?” Daily ablutions are necessities, not opportunities, trust me…

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Whatever propelled you to cross the gender divide by wearing women's clothes, would still be there even if we all lived in a nudist colony. You would just find other ways to do this. You might adopt a woman's hairstyle, or other ways that a woman might adorn herself.

    .. and adorn she would. There is overwhelming visual evidence that men and women wish to differentiate themselves and only one of the ways is through wearing different clothes. Even if there were no clothing or jewelry, humans would find different ways, perhaps some form of body painting. And if there was no body painting and no adornment whatsoever and if everyone grew their hair long, in other words everyone was completely 'au naturel', I'm assuming that men would also not shave their beards or body hair. So, you would likely want to shave your face and body to look more like the women.
    I knew my hypothesis was on a bit of thin ice regarding the overall hair issue, and as I recover from my hypothermia I can only say I attempted to address that by including hair styling along with makeup and jewelry as being non-existent . You are quite likely correct in your assertion that women would adopt various hair styles to "adorn" themselves, but this could be the case with men as well. Beards and male pattern baldness are both obvious sex identifiers as well as reasons for grooming decisions.

    You raise some interesting points in your second paragraph. I hadn't thought about body painting, but that is quite common in some cultures where clothing is actually minimal. It is often a male practice in these cases and related to going into battle. Would this mean that the incentive or impulse to crossdress would be stronger in women than men? Secondly, choices such as whether to grow long hair or cut it short and growing a beard or shaving, often have a basis in practicality or comfort more so than appearance. What is fascinating about this is that while a man's decision to grow his hair long is sometimes looked upon as effeminate (this was certainly the case when I was a youngster), his decisions concerning shaving his facial hair are never considered an attempt to look more like a woman. That might be reversed under my hypothesis.

    Veronica

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    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    I think a lot of it is about the clothing.
    That damn apple started it all though.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate Simmons View Post
    We can use clothes to assuage our feelings but in the end it's more about the feelings than what we are wearing, at least to myself it is.
    Femininity and masculinity are abstracts and as such are highly subjective. Does our inner sense of what is feminine lead us toward putting on women's clothing, or does curiosity about and experimenting with the unusual to us nature of women's clothing arouse our innate feelings of femininity. Either way we find the sensations to be pleasurable and we are driven to repeat it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Richelle423 View Post
    Veronica, I thought we crossdressers fall under the transgender umbrella though we do it either full time or part time. JMO. Though we have feminine feelings and tendencies some of us have to OR choose to remain a male for unspecified reasons.
    This is a somewhat controversial issue and I have outlined my views many times. I enjoy that particular discussion, but as it was not directly related to my OP, I will send you a personal message rather than sidetrack this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by jayme357 View Post
    What a wonderful discussion. I agonize through volumes of trivia to occasionally discover pearls of wisdom such as this. It just seems to make it all worthwhile.
    Thank you for the kind words. I enjoyed contemplating and then writing this thread, and am happy to know I was able to relieve some of that agony.

    Veronica

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Nothing is as adventurous than being a boy, yet wearing girl’s clothing, simply for the thrill. I never get tired of it …

    I can not understand why so many find that simple truism to be so difficult to accept. You are not alone, believe me. There are thousands more who do not speak out for the reasons you have often mentioned.

    Veronica

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    Silver Member Debra Russell's Avatar
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    If clothing did not exist and we wanted to emulate / present as female -- I would need breast at least to fullfill that illusion - clothing supply's that alternative. I think it depends on our motivation of WHY ? do we want to look female or be female? clothing provides a termporary fix which could not be accomplished any other way...............................Debra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veronica27 View Post
    Would this mean that the incentive or impulse to crossdress would be stronger in women than men?
    No. lol. I'm saying that if we remove every single variable that accounts for the non-biological differentiation between men and women (clothes, jewelry, makeup, short vs. long hair, or even body painting, etc), and we construct a world where everyone is in their fundamental natural states (naked and no body shaving, no hair cutting, no extra adornment whatsoever), the only difference between men and women would be their primary sexual characteristics (breasts and reproductive organs), and their secondary sexual characteristics (beard, body hair, and male-pattern baldness in men vs. no beard, no body-hair, and female-pattern hair in women).

    Therefore, I think that MtF transsexuals would still wish to alter their primary and secondary sexual characteristics to have bodies that look like women, while CDers would simply content themselves with shaving their beards and their body hair in order to look smooth like the women. And also perhaps combing over their head hair if they experience male-pattern baldness.


    Edit ... and to take Debra Russel's answer above into account, the people who are not TS in need of transition, yet who want to modify only part of their bodies (the gender non-conformists) might want smooth bodies PLUS breasts, but keep their reproductive organs.

    Last edited by ReineD; 08-29-2013 at 01:00 PM.
    Reine

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    We're getting into an anthropological discussion here, but one that I think is really important in understanding the motivation of cd's. I think Reine raises a really interesting point. If all social/cultural conventions were removed (fashion, no clothing, no make-up, no "externally-applied" notions of differentiation between the sexes, then straight away the very term "crossdress" itself wouldn't even exist. Because in such an environment, the term "dressing" wouldn't exist.

    Which begs the question - in terms of what motivates CD's, be it external or (more likely the case) internal (that is in and of themselves), where, exactly would the motivation stem from? I believe an answer to that very question lies in the desire of many CD's to replicate the female form, that is, to wear breast forms, to shave bodily hair, to "tuck" (and thus literally hide away the most predominant aspect of their body that distinguishes themselves from females). In such an environment (where clothes do not exist), it really isn't inconceivable to me that CD's, and transgendered people as a whole, would seek an outlet - any outlet - that would enable them to either present a inner ideal of themselves to themselves or (for the more daring) publicly.

    As it stands, that is in society/culture as we all know it, clothes do play an important part. And yet clothes themselves are not enough for many CD's - for many want to take it further by changing their body shape so that it emulates the female form. And because of that fact alone, that would suggest that it isn't "all about the clothing". It goes far deeper than that.
    Last edited by jenni_xx; 08-29-2013 at 01:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jenni_xx View Post
    If all social/cultural conventions were removed (fashion, no clothing, no make-up, no "externally-applied" notions of differentiation between the sexes, then straight away the very term "crossdress" itself wouldn't even exist. Because in such an environment, the term "dressing" wouldn't exist.
    Right. So instead, the body and beard shaving would be called 'cross-gender expression'. Oh, and tucking. I forgot about that.
    Reine

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Right. So instead, the body and beard shaving would be called 'cross-gender expression'. Oh, and tucking. I forgot about that.
    In a word yes. I would say that body and beard shaving could, in such an environment, be called "cross-gender expression".

    In fact, I like that terminology so much, that I feel it would be more applicable today, as things stand. Rename ourselves CG as opposed to CD (for the simple fact that for most, it isn't just about clothes).


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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD
    So instead, the body and beard shaving would be called 'cross-gender expression'. Oh, and tucking. I forgot about that.
    Reine, I gotta tell ya, it sounds like you’re talking DOWN to us MtF crossdressers. You forgot to put one of these after your post:

    In this day and age, body and beard shaving are not “cross-gender expression.” I would guess that the males are trying to make themselves more attractive to females (or perhaps each other), or at least the ones who prefer no hair, which fits in neatly with your “sexual attraction” mindset. I get the feeling you just don’t value the opinions of us ACTUAL MtF crossdressers, unless we agree with you, of course...

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    and once again...keep it civil people. Freddy, you seem to somehow always interpret others posts in a negative way. No one else sees that as "talking down". Frankly, it is tiring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Reine, I gotta tell ya, it sounds like you’re talking DOWN to us MtF crossdressers. You forgot to put one of these after your post:

    In this day and age, body and beard shaving are not “cross-gender expression.” I would guess that the males are trying to make themselves more attractive to females (or perhaps each other), or at least the ones who prefer no hair, which fits in neatly with your “sexual attraction” mindset. I get the feeling you just don’t value the opinions of us ACTUAL MtF crossdressers, unless we agree with you, of course...
    The "body and beard shaving" is being posited in an environment that differs from "in this day and age". I thought that that had been made abundantly clear.

    Why do you get the "feeling" that Reine doesn't value the opinions of acutal MtF crossdressers? Her partner is one (if I'm correct in saying). She spends a lot of time here giving advice to many that is genuine and from her heart. She has dedicated a lot of her time to helping other spouses (of cds) deal with cding (which is to the benefit of such partners, and to cd's themselves). She has a view, and expresses it. She has questions, so she asks them. In my opinion, the world needs more people like Reine who are prepared to help others, ask questions, express doubts, wonder and take an interest in those who embrace this particular lifestyle. The last thing any of us need is for one of us to come along with the intention of undermining such a person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    In this day and age, body and beard shaving are not “cross-gender expression.”
    I was responding to the OP's "what if" scenario as described in my post: the world where we all walk around naked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frédérique View Post
    Reine, I gotta tell ya, it sounds like you’re talking DOWN to us MtF crossdressers. You forgot to put one of these after your post:
    I'm sorry that you see it that way Freddy.
    Reine

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    I cannot quarrel with many of the viewpoints set forward in the thread, except for the inadvertent referencing of these activities by Reine as "cross gender" expression. For those who identify as crossdressers in the cultural world we know where clothing does exist, the activities you describe in my make believe scenario would seem more correctly described as cross sex expression if done for the purpose of emulating the opposite sex. Otherwise they are just grooming choices for whatever reason. Cross gender is really no different than transgender, and is open to all the same objections against the use of it as an umbrella term. To those of us who do not self identify as anything other than male, the insistence on TG as describing everyone is somewhat of a put down, as it implies we must be told by others who and what we are. It is not the objections to this terminology that are repetitious and boring, but the insistence on stating them as applying to everyone despite those objections. Can we please accept that some people are transgender and some are not. It is about self identity after all, and nobody can make that determination for anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley Sims View Post
    I think a lot of it is about the clothing.
    That damn apple started it all though.
    I'm confused. Should I like apples for giving us those wonderful female clothes or hate them for not letting me go stark naked?

    Veronica

    Quote Originally Posted by Debra Russell View Post
    If clothing did not exist and we wanted to emulate / present as female -- I would need breast at least to fullfill that illusion - clothing supply's that alternative. I think it depends on our motivation of WHY ? do we want to look female or be female? clothing provides a termporary fix which could not be accomplished any other way...............................Debra
    Maybe my scenario would have led to the development of more realistic breast forms and better methods of attaching them.

    In any event the distinction between wanting to look female or be female is what the whole CD/TG discussion is about.

    Veronica

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veronica27
    I'm confused. Should I like apples for giving us those wonderful female clothes or hate them for not letting me go stark naked?
    If global warming continues unchecked, going stark naked will be de rigueur...

    However, I think we should like apples. My father once had a little apple orchard. I used to run around in the moonlight, eating an apple I just picked, gloriously nude, of course! For some reason I saw no paradox at work, but I was too happy to think about Adam & Eve...

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    I kind of wonder how much using clothing to 'express our femininity' is expressing it to ourselves rather than to others. To me it reinforced who I felt I was, and made it more comfortable to 'be myself' even if it was when i was all alone, where as I always kind of feel like I'm putting on an act when dressed and being sure to behave stereotypically ONLY in male ways when in public. But in the same style of 'fake it till you can make it', I'm trying to keep up the 'all male' illusion for as long as it takes, and maybe this time, it'll 'take'. One day at a time, one day at a time.........I am a crossdresser, but I will not crossdress....today. We'll worry about tomorrow when it gets here.
    Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
    There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

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    Hi all,

    Although new, I thought I would like to weigh in on this discussion. From an anthropological POV, if the world existed where all things being equal (no clothing, no body painting etc.) but with the exception of body hair and genetic sexual differences, I still believe CD (though I do like the CG term Jenni-xx posited), would still exist. The optimal term is expression.

    Even if there were no clothing, no body painting etc., we are social in nature and nature abhors a vacuum of non-order. This potential culture would still develop societal norms (places for gender - albeit they may be different from what occurred in our own history - think hunter/gatherer). By the very nature of being genetically different, the genders would still split to take on specific societal norms (who knows, perhaps males would have become more gathers and females would have gone off to hunt). In the end, the genders would still have developed their own unique expressions and sense of being. So, if CD/CG could not manifest itself via clothing, body painting etc. then I believe "expression" would be the most logical outcome. MtF CGs would try to adopt female mannerisms, societal roles etc and vice versa for FtM. Yes body hair removal might come into play but it would depend on what the society saw as a norm. In ancient Egypt and Rome, men used to spend hours removing all body hair with a metal blade because it was considered unsightly.

    I don't personally believe it is about the clothes but more so the expression/sense of being. Don't get me wrong, when I am en femme, I love girly clothes and lingerie. But that is me expressing myself because our current societal norms enforced gender specific dress codes and I am expressing myself along that societal norm (expressing myself as female via clothing). However, even when I am at home (my safe zone), if I am completely male (jeans, t-shirt, two day stubble), my actions are still Isha and I still feel very much girly and femme even without the clothing and the beard. I feel that way because I am expressing myself through gestures and walk, with my sense of being ias female regardless of what I am wearing at that time.

    Just my two cents . . . sorry if I rambled. I just thought this was such an interesting post as it hit home with me as I struggle to incorporate the two halves of who I am.

    Isha

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