Like Freddie stated, great essay. Personally I feel that my CDing is just a fig leaf of my imagination!
Like Freddie stated, great essay. Personally I feel that my CDing is just a fig leaf of my imagination!
Lynn Marie
Click here to see me on Flickr
I think that "cross-sex" accurately describes a transsexual who wants to adopt the sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. To use the term "cross-gender expression" in this case would be inaccurate, since the MtF transsexual and the genetic female already share the same gender identity. If, however, a crossdresser identifies male, when he dresses he is presenting in a way that is considered appropriate for the other gender, so he is, in fact, crossing an aspect of the gender divide. He is not altering his sexual characteristics as does the transsexual. So in your anthropological scenario where the cis-genders do not alter their gender expression whatsoever, I think the CDer would shave (since all the other men would have long beards), and they'd also tuck. They might decide to do this in private just as many of the crossdressers keep their presentation private here. They might also, as Isha suggests, feel more comfortable hanging out with the ladies just as is often described in this forum. The transsexuals, however, would want to do what they do now, which is fully transition. And then of course there would be people who wouldn't want to fully transition, but who would just want the breasts ... the gender non-conformists.Originally Posted by Veronica27
It's interesting to think of changing the label 'crossdressing' (CD) to cross-gender expression (CG). The term 'crossdressing' is rather superficial in its description of the action.
I agree with this.
As to the rest of your post, my SO is also always the same person internally no matter how dressed, although I wouldn't say that s/he is strictly feminine (girly) or masculine. I think that my SO has characteristics of both genders, which may set him/her apart from other genetic men, but s/he is also set apart from genetic women. So s/he experiences the best of both worlds.
Last edited by ReineD; 08-31-2013 at 12:16 PM.
Reine
I like to be naked with lovers male or female. In daily life I enjoy feeling feminine and desired. If I dress in a certain way it's to get that man or woman into my bed. The clothes are irrelevant.
L’imagination au pouvoir!
Hi Reine
What we have here is the usual disagreement about crossdressers fitting or not fitting the transgender designation. I limited my objections to your cross gender label as being not applicable to those who identify as crossdressers, and stated the cross sex term might be more applicable as they are attempting to portray the opposite sex rather than be the opposite sex. Crossdressers and transgenders do the same things, but it is their motivations for doing them that are quite different. A transgender person identifies mentally and emotionally to some extent as being the opposite sex. Since physically they are born male they refer to these feelings as their gender which is not in full alignment with their genetic sex. Wearing female clothing gives expression to those feelings and they temporarily become female by masking the male sexual characteristics and emphasizing the female characteristics. When those gender feelings are more extreme, they may be candidates for transition, wherein the characteristics are permanently changed to the opposite sex. Genetically, the sex cannot be changed, at least at the current levels off medical technology, but for all practical intents and purposes they have become the opposite sex.
Crossdressers do not experience those same feelings of gender discrepancy. They crossdress for the more mundane reasons of adventure, thrill, escape and so on. There can be many such reasons. The emulation of female sexual characteristics, such as breasts and hair styles is all a part of the illusion being created to heighten the excitement of the crossdressing experience. The crossdresser never looses sight of the fact he is a man dressing as a woman for his own personal form of pleasure. You stated that when a man crossdresses "he is presenting in a way that is considered appropriate for the other gender, so he is, in fact, crossing an aspect of the gender divide." However, the clothing is what is appropriate for the opposite sex, not the other gender. Gender is an abstract and accordingly there is no appropriate clothing for gender.
Much of the confusion about all of this is the result of the modern day conflating of the words sex and gender as being synonymous. They are not the same thing. Referring to a crossdresser as described above as transgender is very misleading and can create difficulties for that individual when attempting to explain his actions to others. The term transgender is used very inaccurately by the media as well which creates difficulties for the entire community, but especially for crossdressers.
Veronica
No, I'm saying the opposite.
Admittedly, it's a new way of looking at it, but I'm saying that the crossdressers who feel as you do, DO have a strong male gender identity and so you are temporarily moving beyond your own male internal sense of gender when you present as a woman. If on the other hand you had a full feminine identity (like the transsexuals) or a partial feminine identity (like the gender non-conformists), then you would NOT be crossing any of your internal gender barriers since putting on feminine clothes would reflect your correct full or partial feminine gender identity. If this makes sense.
Edit - I forgot to mention. I've not seen pictures of you dressed, but if when you dress you present fully as a man with hairy legs, beard, man hair-style, no makeup, etc and you are wearing a skirt, then in my opinion you are not moving beyond your internal male gender ID, since you are presenting as a man in a skirt. This to me is the true definition of crossdressing: A man who presents as a man wearing a dress.
Last edited by ReineD; 09-01-2013 at 12:20 AM.
Reine
Hi.
So we take our clothes off what do you see, only male & female. not quite so. you for get. some of ...us... have both sets of organs inner & outer. or none at all. so how do... we.... look are ...we... male or female , so do you refer to us as male ( not this kid any way.) or female .
So how do we adorn our selfs to let you know what we are, male or female or a mix of both, so its not going to be straight forward is it, And i can graintee most people will not have a clue what some of us are, because we will give out very mixed messages,, so the joys of being who we are, i wont do the health issues because thats another detail some of us have, hormones.
...noeleena...
Hi again ReineNo, I'm saying the opposite.
Admittedly, it's a new way of looking at it, but I'm saying that the crossdressers who feel as you do, DO have a strong male gender identity and so you are temporarily moving beyond your own male internal sense of gender when you present as a woman. If on the other hand you had a full feminine identity (like the transsexuals) or a partial feminine identity (like the gender non-conformists), then you would NOT be crossing any of your internal gender barriers since putting on feminine clothes would reflect your correct full or partial feminine gender identity. If this makes sense.
Edit - I forgot to mention. I've not seen pictures of you dressed, but if when you dress you present fully as a man with hairy legs, beard, man hair-style, no makeup, etc and you are wearing a skirt, then in my opinion you are not moving beyond your internal male gender ID, since you are presenting as a man in a skirt. This to me is the true definition of crossdressing: A man who presents as a man wearing a dress.
That is a novel approach to what constitutes crossdressing. Whether or not it makes sense depends upon what the word "gender" means to the individual. In today's world people tend to use the words sex and gender interchangeably and thus have begun to refer to our male gender or female gender, and our personal gender identity, and our gender expression. However, the two words have two quite different meanings, and are in fact two different types of nouns. Sex is a concrete noun, or one that can be identified by one of the senses, in this case sight. Sex refers to the classification of individuals acording to their reproductive organs. These classifications are male, female or in the case of inanimate objects neutral. When modified by the adjectives male or female, sex becomes concrete as the identifiers are clearly visible.
Gender is an abstract noun which is one that refers to an aspect, concept, idea, experience, state of being, quality or feeling. Gender is a concept, and as such is hightly subjective. The words masculine and feminine are used to differentiate between genders. In its basic form, the word gender is not possessed by individuals, but by the words that describe individuals. It is a grammatical term, and can apply to inanimate objects as well as living beings depending on the language being used. Objects, such as a chair, can be masculine in one language, but feminine in another, depending upon the culture and norms of that language.
A man wearing an apron can be viewed as feminine by some, and masculine by others, while a woman changing a flat tire, might be engaging in a masculine pursuit by some but not by others. Nobody can know what constitutes another person's concepts of gender, or more importantly how they feel about themselves in a context of gender. Your own "Identity" is coloured by your own concepts of gender, which may have no similarity whatsoever to any generally accepted concepts, because they do not exist.
To illustrate, much artwork is abstract as opposed to the realism of prior eras. For any particular abstract painting individual 1 might say it portrays man's struggle to understand the meaning of live, while individual 2 might say it portrays man's inner conflict over who he is, but individual 3 might describe it as a load of crap.
I am a member of the male sex, and that is how I identify myself regardless of what I might be wearing. You described it as a strong male gender identity, but it is in fact my sexual identity. I have no desire to be female, nor do I attain any sense of being female when I crossdress. I am adopting some of the visible physical characteristics of the female but that is entirely different from identifying mentally as such. I do not think in terms of gender in any of my contemplative moments because to me it is a non existing concept and quite misleading.
You have not seen any photos of me for several reasons including my reluctance to frighten the daylights out of anyone. I sleep most nights in nightgowns simply because I have discovered that they are more comfortable than any male sleepwear I have ever worn. I do not consider this to be crossdressing, although I did discover those benefits as a result of crossdressing. Your description of a man in a skirt, is me quite often with a 10 or 12 days beard growth, lacking makeup etc but in a skirt. I have simply discovered the comfort of skirts in certain situations, as a result of being a crossdresser, but do not consider it to be crossdressing. It is simply clothing. I crossdress when I dress fairly completely including full undergarments and breast forms, as that is when I am attempting to emulate a female appearance. Why? Because it is fun. Being a woman, or simply feeling like a woman would involve much more than simply what I am wearing. I have no way of even knowing what that would be like. To say otherwise would be very demeaning to women as it would imply that being a woman is totally superficial.
Veronica
Hi Noeleena
Many of the threads and posts on this forum must seem terribly insensitive to folks like yourself. As one who has very little knowledge of the myriad of conditions that can leave an individual in that vast gap between male and female, I usually refrain from entering any discussions about it because I am unable to contribute much of value. The forum is about crossdressing, and I usually post only on threads dealing with strict male to female crossdressing issues. I found the following quote on a site devoted to the various intersex conditions and thought that it conveyed somewhat a message I was unable to put into words concerning the uniqueness of your situation:
"Is intersex part of the trans community?
While some people with intersex conditions also identify as trans, intersex people as a group have a unique set of needs and priorities beyond those shared with trans people. Too often, these unique needs are made invisible or secondary when "intersex" becomes a subcategory of "transgender". For example, people who discuss about intersex in the context of transgender often stress the risk of assigning a "wrong" gender as an argument against intersex genital mutilation, which overlooks the fact that intersex medical treatment is painful and traumatic whether or not one's gender identity happens to match her or his assigned gender. It is for this reason that intersex people prefer to have "intersex" spelled out explicitly rather than have it included in the "transgender" umbrella."
Please feel free to comment on this whether you agree or disagree, as it might help all who read this forum to better understand your needs. Despite my obvious difference from those described above, and the relative simplicity of my needs as a crossdresser, this quote did express the feelings I have often tried to express over crossdressers being included under that transgender umbrella.
Veronica
OK, to make this simple:
We do live in a binary world, where women are women and men are men, at least for about 95% of the population. We may quibble about whether some women dress femininely enough for some CDers, but the fact remains that they are unmistakably women. Think of your neighbors, your co-workers, your family members. You know who are the women and who are the men. However, no one can open up a skull, look inside, and tell if someone's internal sense of gender is male or female. This means that most people can only determine whether someone is male or female based on their outward presentation and also their outward physical characteristics. So in this sense, for 95% of the population, the internal gender ID matches the outward sexual characteristics (body size, facial features, body hair, breasts, genitalia, etc), and this is how we know who are the men and who are the women.
If a male-identified (gender and sex) CDer attempts to 'fool the eye' so to speak, in other words he goes all out to present in a manner that gives others (or himself) the impression that he is emulating a woman, then he is indeed intentionally presenting beyond the gender/sex that he is. Right? Since men in our society don't usually wear makeup, breast forms, pads, shaved bodies (we don't need to get into the body-builders or the cyclists, I'm speaking of the majority). So in this sense, he is engaging in cross (he is crossing his own) standard, default, male gender/sex expression.
If on the other hand he continues to present as a man, he does not even attempt to fool the eye into believing that he is emulating a woman … if he keeps his hairy legs, hairy eyebrows, beard, no-makeup, short nails, conventional male haircut, if he doesn't wear any forms or pads, but he merely wears feminine clothes, then he is not presenting beyond the gender/sex that he is. He is, if fact, presenting fully as a male who is merely out there crossdressing. There is no cross-gender/sex expression other than just the "dressing" (the clothes), which doesn't attempt to fool the eye in terms of gender/sex presentation at all.
I combined the gender/sex together to keep things simple, but ultimately it is the transsexuals who wish to adopt the sexual characteristics of the target gender. Not the crossdressers.
Reine
Pavlov with his whistle and his dogs.
CDers [the VAST majority by far at least for some time period] and their clothes.
It's just that simple. Proof of that can be found all over this site when one views with their eyes open. I started a thread in the P&V gallery for granny dresses and flats. 563 views and one response before it vanished in the night.
The difference is ONLY that the dog's [and admittedly, I am only guessing here] never felt GUILTY and/or ASHAMED for salivating and/or eating.
CDers on the other hand... It's at least possible [if not quite likely] for some, that their male brains "helped them progress" into "fuller presentation" and away from O's in an effort to relieve that guilt. The dressing w/o the O part most likely STILL allows the brain to probably release just parts of the chemical cocktail of an O.
Our BRAINS are capable of all manner of gymnastic feats to help us cope with things about ourselves that make us uncomfortable. NGC's BRAIN GAMES illustrates this concept quite well beyond any shadow of a doubt.
For me it used to be a lot about the clothing and it still is to a degree. The first time I tried on some girly sandals, well I've never tried intravenous drugs, but I imagine that is somewhat what it is like. A total rush, and as I've said before, I feel I come alive. Any more I just enjoy it. There's a thrill in wearing my long crochet white dress with my strappy toe ring sandals with the little flowers on the straps. But as someone said there is that dark side of shame that can ruin it. I say screw others (when possible) and just be you. As that sunscreen song from the 90s said, "The race is long and in the end it is only with yourself." Enjoy the journey, because from personal experience, you never know when will be the last time you get to do something you love. Enjoy it while you can. There are older girls on this site who will tell you that they can't really wear heels any more. Imagine that. So next time you put your tootsies in some strappy 3" heels remember to get as much out of it as you can for tomorrow you may never walk in them again.
Hi,
Veronica.
I knew when i joined the many forums that most people would be ether dresser's or trans people , so how do you fit in when your different not much is known about us as people some 10,000 of us around the world, so i joined 4 intersex forums as well. there were 3 others here on this forum who are in some ways like i am though we are not the same in all aspects yet we can relate quite well. .
I dont expect others here to be able to say they understand us far from it, now there are some intersex who are trans again some differences so its not a cut & dry answer because theres so many differences i would not even try & answer for them they must if they so wish can do that & ill learn about them .
Insensitive, it may appear that way at times , okay how do you understand something youv never experanced you cant its that simple . so i dont expect others to , a converstion is then very much one sided,
i cant tell you how i think , how do i say i cant think as a male i dont have a male brain, yet should i say do i think as a female do i have a female brain ...no because my brain is nether, yet im both male & female, i cant seperate ether, i have feelings to some extent of both more towards female all im doing is going round & round my body is male / female my hormones are of both,not all of cause mixed, & some changes took place as iv said long before added synthic meds HRT, as iv found out from another intersex friend ,
I have never said im fully female i'd be lieing if i did, yet i am an intersexed female with a maleness about myself,
most of my thought patterns are female that was brought home when Jos & i lost our 4th child in a misscarage, yes it hurts & later Jos said to me you can have the next child i wheeled around & said i will.
Kaykyn gave birth to Dejarn 10y 9 m ago she is my child i could not give birth to. yes a long story there, as i write this youll see im going into more of my fermaleness as a write about us, being female is for most of us is about haveing children being able to carry ...OUR... child, so i know what it does to us who can not give birth, in the pit of our being its there we cant explain it my body langage will show it in some way as i express myself in what im saying ,
i hate writeing about this because it winds me up its very emotional its not something i can just write off or forget, its part of my makeup. & only a female can relate with other female in this way,
You know what it would be great to write about all of this & say its not true its all made up just a fantisy the fact is its too true why do i work with women because i relate to & know what its like i never wonted to be female or a woman. i had no say i was born this way through have grown into a woman as most women do.
I would rather have another write my story my detail is i have issues with dyslexia just hope this comes over well.
my intersexed friend
we talked at length so theres nothing i dont know about her, & depends on how you see her you will pick up a maleness about her as well though she has her womb as i dont,
I run into grief because im not a trans person, yes most of our issues are different i dont think like trans people partly because im female in part. & did not change from male to female or female to male,you see some of us dont change , we can grow of cause there are changes a few miner body ones our mind does not with or with out meds, thats for body maintaince so we dont have health issues,
Transgender, what do you call us = some, what gender are we because we are nether, or both, = a person, does not bother myself,
are we part of the trans community, certinly not in New Zealand Austraila dought it, in some ways not even tolerated, again im not bothered.
Im to much a part of our community of Waimate pop of less than 5,000 people well accepted a member of many groups and accepted as a normal female / woman. been a member of women only groups for some time, & most know my background theres nothing hidden its all out there, very public if any one wonted to contest this my birth certs says female at birth,
Though had they writen at birth intersex 66 years ago it would have saved a lot of issues, still thats life, does not matter now any way.
...noeleena...
For me, it IS about the clothes. If there were no differences in clothing worn by males and females, I would not engage in any cross-gender activities, mannerisms, etc. And if there were no mirrors, wearing makeup and women's clothing would have no purpose for me. The exception might be wearing pantyhose amd high heels with no mirrors, clothing, makeup, etc. I'd still do that.
Hi Reine, I actually agree with most of your views and really appreciate all your input in these kinds of threads and enjoy reading GG perspective. It is very hard to accept the concept of “It is just about clothes” when you see most members here use breast, and hip forms and tuck their private parts to make themselves look like a GG. But what about all of the non sex depended activities and clothes which are only socially acceptable for female sex to wear or use. If it is not about the clothes can you please explain why man can not wear (without being ridiculed or made felt uncomfortable) make up, high heels, panty hose, dresses, skirts, lace, pretty jewellery and use nail polish on their fingers and toes, remove body hair and also have styled and coloured long hair and the rest if that is what they want.
I think most of us here only start our cd journey with just a few key items, for me the two significant items were pantyhose and high heels. Now I like dressing fully and it really gives me great joy. I do not dress to become a women, I now that biologically I am a man and I am completely okay with that. I guess what I am really trying to say is if from birth we weren’t influenced so much about how man and woman should look different in our society maybe I would not have the desire or the need to try to look like a complete woman.
Good advice. The simplest way I can think of explaining the situation is that crossdressing is an extremely masculine activity. It encompasses many of the qualities that society likes to think of as manly. It takes determination to learn all about clothing, cosmetics, sizes, how to walk in heels, how to apply makeup and so on when you are raised in an environment that stresses the ignoring of such things rather than teaching you by osmosis to be fully aware and capable of them.
Crossdressing involves risk and facing up to the challenges presented by taking chances. In this respect it is no different than many other so called macho activities. It requires a thick skin and the ability to take abuse without flinching. A crossdresser has to be assertive, courageous and bold. Other words used to describe masculinity include: decisive, dominant, forceful, independant, individualistic, self-reliant and adventurous. All of these qualities can be found in most who identify as male, heterosexual crossdressers.
In short it takes guts for a man to wear a dress. To think of such an activity as being feminine and an expression of one's inner female gender, seems rather demeaning to women, as it implies that appearance is what they are all about. Women are much more than what they are wearing, and this is illustrated by the fact that they can be dressed in a very manly way without anyone questioning their womanhood.
So why do men crossdress? One could ask why we do anything. We never agonize over our reasons for liking to watch sports, read, cook, build models, sew or knit, sky dive or any other of a multitude of pastimes.. except crossdress. Crossdressing is a taboo in our society and although this is totally irrational, it creates feelings of guilt and shame for its participants. The search for reasons is a search to justify what might otherwise be looked upon as perverse.
There are individuals of both sexes, as well as those who do not fit into either category, who feel genuine ambiguity as to their sex and or gender. However, I think that much of what we have seen as a growing population of those who identify as "gender enhanced", "gender gifted" or transgender is the adopting of a legitimate sounding reason(or excuse or justification) for those who cannot accept like a man that they are simply men who like to wear female clothing. This might sound harsh, and it is not my intention to attack anyone for their opinions, but it is my opinion that I am a non gender related crossdresser that is being questioned continually. But worse, relying on the TG justification tends to marginalize those who do have genuine concerns in this area.
Heterosexual men are by nature interested in women. Their sexuality is strongly governed by their vision. They like to "girl watch" and are fascinated by the female form and in many cases how that form is clothed. The internet is loaded with images of nude, or partially nude women. It is perfectly natural that for many men, a desire to try on or wear some of the more unusual or unique to women items that they observe would develop if for no other reason than curiosity. They do not necessarily want to do so to be women or feel like women but simply to enjoy an experience that is much different than the norm to which they are otherwise subjected. The same applies to such adornments as using forms. Just as Freud's penis envy theories did not translate to meaning the woman wanted to be a man, there are now a number of psychology of breast envy theories to be found if you google it. Crossdressing is fun. Why spoil it by reading more into it than is actually there?
Veronica
That's not what I'm saying at all.
First, both women and men exhibit courage in a variety of ways in their lives. Having guts is not only the providence of men.
Second, the expression of femininity for a male who solidly identifies as a male is NOT an expression of his inner female gender, since he doesn't have a feminine gender identity. I'm saying that if he is male, then he crosses his OWN sense of internal male gender ID by presenting in a manner that 95% of the people on this planet see as the feminine gender (which for 95% of the people on this planet matches their biological sex) if he, in fact, does try to emulate a female in appearance. This can be done in various ways: long hair and makeup, the appearance of breasts, clothing bought in women's stores, etc. I don't have to spell it out. In no way do I feel that this is demeaning to women. Do you? Women have breasts, many women have long hair and wear makeup, and most women do buy their clothes in women's stores. This speaks strictly of their appearance, which is what we're talking about here and which is what males who engage in cross-gender expression do when they emulate the appearance of women. Of course both men and women are a lot more than just the way they look.
And yes, I know there are birth males who do not have a solid male identity like you do, but who instead have a gender non-conforming identity (the birth males who do feel a combination of male and female) or the transsexuals who have strictly a female gender identity. We are only talking about the male-identified birth males here, who do cross their own sense of male identity when they attempt to emulate (more than just wearing the clothes), a member of the opposite sex/gender. The other birth males are not crossing any gender barriers when they dress, since they are expressing a part of (for the gender non-conforming) or totally (for the transsexuals) the female they feel they are.
Last edited by ReineD; 09-04-2013 at 03:05 PM.
Reine
I totally agree. I did not say it was strictly male. I stated that :That's not what I'm saying at all.
First, both women and men exhibit courage in a variety of ways in their lives. Having guts is not only the providence of men.It is society's views of masculinity that make crossdressing a masculine activity.crossdressing is an extremely masculine activity. It encompasses many of the qualities that society likes to think of as manly.
Other people, regardless of their numbers, have no idea what I am thinking or feeling or why I am doing whatever I do. It is purely speculation on their part. I thought we were about fighting stereotypes, not encouraging them. If an individual dons a Mr. Spock outfit and attends a Trekkie convention, should we label him a transalien? If another puts on a batman costume and attends a comicon convention, should we assume he has a super hero identity? Judging by their presentation would lead to such obviously erroneous conclusions.
I didn't say that dressing fully was demeaning to women. I said that thinking of it as expressing an inner female gender was demeaning. as such assumptions tend to imply that appearance is what the feminine gender is all about.
I crossdress for my own pleasure. I realize that others have no way of understanding my motivations and that their only basis for drawing any conclusions about me or my behaviour are the false myths and stereotypes that are constantly being perpetuated by the media and the rest of society. This is why my crossdressing is kept pretty much private, and why I am so adamant in attempting to show that the type of groupthink that pervades our community is not always the case.
Veronica
If you let me shave my pitters also, we could call it," transgender expression " Can I, can I, pleaseeeeee?Right. So instead, the body and beard shaving would be called 'cross-gender expression'.
No of course people can't open your skull to peer inside. They have no clue whether you identify as a man or a woman. But, it does appear to them as if you identify as a woman since you are presenting as one. My SO and I go out all the time. S/he is not transsexual. Yet I'm sure that the people who know her (who don't know him in guy mode) think that s/he is TS. It's just an assumption that people make based on the manner of presentation. So if the people who see you take it that you are TS, then they will believe that you are presenting in a gender that is who you are internally and you are not crossing any gender expression.
The only time that a person crosses into a different gender expression is when they present in a gender/sex that they do not identify with internally.
As to transaliens and such, there are a lot of people who are into the Anime/Manga culture and who go to all these conventions dressed as their favorite characters. It's a lifestyle for them. Here's a google image search:
https://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=...FcOYqAG-4IC4AQ
They immerse themselves into online games as their characters and they do take on the persona. So yes, I'd say that these people are crossing over into Anime-land too.
Reine
Hi all,
I know I posted earlier but I just wanted to throw my two cents in here again. Not trying to invoke an argument or insult anyone. If I have done so inadvertently, please accept my apology and PM me.
While I believe that clothing is an important part of what I do, I don't think it is why I do it. Specifically, it is not all about the feminine dresses, lingerie, shoes and make-up. Don't get me wrong, I love it but it is a guise that allows me to explore the feminine side of my psyche. Which leads me to . . . What about this feminine vs masculine traits/persona/psyche debate?
Let's be honest, feminine/masculine (genetic differences aside) are truly societal contrivances plain and simple. This goes right back to the hunter/gather times in our own evolutionary history. Men due to body size and strength hunted, women due to childbirth and rearing stayed close to home and gathered/nurtured the family which in turn made the tribes strong, and both saw the survival of our species.
I am sure even then there were women who by nature of their size and strength would have been great hunters (who knows perhaps they did - not thinking Clan of the Cave Bear here, but similar). As well, I am sure there were men who were not strong enough to hunt for various reasons. They most likely took on a more gatherer nature. The point here is that this core societal division, split the genders long ago into neat albeit required jobs (for lack of a better descriptor). This ensure the survival of humans as a species on this planet.
If we move this core belief through our history, it only becomes more engrained. Men are strong, providers, protectors whereas women are weaker, demure, need to be protected, nurturers . . . yadda, yadda, yadda. Anyone with half a brain can figure out this is not the case. I have worked with some pretty hard core women and they don't need any protection. In the same bane, I have seen a lot of men who are great dads (nurturers) and tend to be more demure. Is that right or wrong? Nope, this is normal and should be encouraged if we are ever going to mature as a species. However, these societal traits associated with what is female and what is male are still carried by society like some bad luggage we just can seem to throw away. Think boys rough and tumble, girls sugar and spice. For a man to explore the sugar and spice side contravenes societal norms to the point where it is considered weird.
It is an interesting observation that as humans mature (emotionally) as a species, we are more accepting of women expressing what would have been considered male traits (confidence, strength, Alpha) but no so much the opposite way (although, that too is beginning to change, albeit slowly). But, I posit that when we split the genders, we actually robbed ourselves of being whole. Women are already beginning to take that wholeness back (i.e., moving away from the stereotypical "gatherer" role and taking on the "hunter" role). Whereas most men are not moving in that direction (good or bad for them).
Okay, I'll jump off my soapbox and bottle this tempest.
In the end, I believe we are all capable of expressing the qualities of both genders. Some men may not chose to embrace their feminine (if you want to put a label on it) side and this may be fine for them (who really knows). Others, like myself have discovered through years of seeing the worse humanity has to offer, have found something lacking in my very soul. Is it wanting to be a woman . . . No. It is a deep seated desire to bring a gestalt to my psyche and make myself whole. This means integrating what society has classed as "girl" into my "boy" psyche. Hence bringing the "hunter" and the "gatherer" back into alignment.
Does that mean I do not dress girly . . . No. However, while I try to present as female as possible (at home), it is to help me explore what society has deemed female appropriate. It is not about wanting to be a woman.
The clothing is sensual and society does not afford a man the ability to feel sensual or alluring (handsome, manly, attractive yes . . . sensual, alluring, sexual . . . No). I get it, just semantics, but there is a subtle differences and we would be naïve not believe that.
So is it about the clothing . . . to some degree as it allows me to fully explore society's definition of feminine . . . Yes. But when I present in public I am fully male and enjoy it. That does not stop me from presenting societies definition of feminine (loving, caring, nurturing) anymore than is prevents me from presenting along societies definition of masculine (outgoing, strong, confident) all of which can be considered feminine traits as well.
So you see, all the traits, feminine or masculine are just societal norms in an effort to categorize gender into neat little packages. Trying to decide amongst ourselves what is male and what is female in essence is only applying labels and I would argue that is serves to create more confusion.
If a man or woman truly believes they are in the wrong body there is a large biological component here. Call it what you will, but this person because a chromosome wandered off or in during gestation ended up assigned to the wrong gender. They are not trying to just complete a sense of wholeness in a spiritual sense but a physical sense as well. These individuals still need to bring clarity to their identity (male/female) but they also need to bring clarity to their genetic identity (woman/man). For those of us who identify male, whether we present only male while en femme (hairy legs/ beard) or as female as possible (make-up, hair removal, wigs, breast forms) I argue we are just employing the tools differently to bring balance to our identity.
If a woman acts very Alpha masculine in the business world, while some older men may see here as outside the typical feminine mode, most don't even bat an eye . . . she is an ambitious and strong business woman regardless of whether she is in a dress or a smart business suit. Does it stop her from being feminine . . . No. However, if I was to show up at my job in a sundress, heels and get all touchy feeling . . . well I would have to hand in my man card. If I present at work in male attire but express certain feminine qualities in my leadership role . . . guess what . . . I am both masculine and feminine and I can keep my man card squarely in my wallet.
Perhaps one day society will change but in the end, as I integrate Isha into my gestalt she/I do not change if I am wearing a sundress and lingerie or if I am in combat fatigues. I am still male (genetically) but as we integrate more my personality is becoming both feminine and masculine (labels applied) and that is making me a whole and happy person for the first time in a long time, en femme or boy mode.
So why worry about whether you are presenting male/female or if you are transgender, CD, or transsexual? Is it not about accepting who you are and learning to bring all aspects of your personality into alignment so you can be the best possible person you are capable of being?
Sorry to ramble.
Hugs
Isha
Last edited by Marcelle; 09-05-2013 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Grammar correcton
Interesting essay, Isha. Society gets blamed for the uneven treatment of feminine males and masculine females. True. But it's not as if one day a human jumped up and said "New rules: men act like men and women act like women, with stricter enforcement on the men". Society evolved along with the species, and is one of the things that enabled the species to survive in a world where extinction is the rule and survival the exception. There are reasons why things are as they are, whether it is walking upright or the rules of society.
A male lion's takeover of a pride will kill existing cubs. That's not nice. But there's a reason that seems to work for the lions. A peacock could be a better flier without those tail feathers, but they serve a purpose that seems to work for the species. Perhaps human society evolved so that the males who don't provide or protect are discouraged from breeding and passing on those undesirable traits.
The wolves are laughing. Humans ruined some of them, making them into domesticated dogs by substituting their idea of artificial selection of desirable traits for nature's natural selection (sorry for the rudundancy). It seems that along with those desirable traits came undesirable ones, like breathing, eye, or hip problems and more.
Likewise, we have artificially tinkered with the rules of society, where everyone gets a trophy, everyone receives without the responsibility of contributing, and everyone wants to be who they are instead of what their society needs them to be.
I'm a CDer, and I love my dog. I'm just suggesting that expectations of how men and women behave is complicated, and won't suddenly change just by starting gender diversity education in kindergarten.
Hi Nicole,
Agree 100 percent that survival of the fittest at the raw evolutionary basis helped shaped the way gender is perceived today. However, my point (albeit probably more of tirade) was to illustrate that in doing so, we (the collective human we) have come to accept what should be feminine and what should be masculine. In essence it can be seen as outdated much like we once use to have tails but do not now (evolutionary wise).
Men do not need to be protective all the time or Alpha if that is not their thing, anymore than women need to be shy or demure or let men take the lead. With regards to attire . . . perhaps that is bridge too far for society to accept men wearing dresses and heels but who knows, someday we might get there.
Tolerance what a wonderful concept
Thanks for reading and replying . . . I sometimes (okay) always get a bit verbose in my response.
Hugs
Isha
Last edited by Marcelle; 09-05-2013 at 11:35 AM.
I would love to see the topic, gender and sexual diversity, included in the Health curriculum for middle and high school students. It doesn't have to be elaborate for the younger students, but an awareness that there are people whose inner gender ID does not match their biological sex would certainly help these students accept those among them who are not cis-gender. We do see more and more such children in the news every day.
Veronica, it occurs to me that you may think that "cross-gender expression" and "transgender" mean the same thing. They do have opposite meanings. I recognize that many people believe that "transgender" means a gender ID that is between male and female (although I personally believe in the umbrella term description). And of course the media uses the term interchangeably with "transsexual" because they want to distance themselves from any sexual motive for transition (since most people outside this community do confuse gender ID with sexuality). But "cross-gender expression" is simply what it says. It describes someone who does solidly identify as one gender/sex, who then chooses to present as the other gender/sex. They literally choose to present in a gender that in their culture is accepted as the gender presentation of the opposite gender/sex, to the vast majority of people who see them. I don't know if you're getting this or if you do equate the term with being transgender as the term is used more and more in the media.
But as I stated much earlier above, if a man chooses to not alter any of his male characteristics and presents unmistakably as a full-on man who is wearing a dress, then this man is crossdressing in the classic sense.
Last edited by ReineD; 09-05-2013 at 10:47 AM.
Reine
I didn’t wish to paticipate in this discussion anymore, since certain individuals A) don’t care what we crossdressers say (or think), B) insist that there is only ONE explanation for crossdressing, and C) I don’t see much point in beating my proverbial head against the proverbial wall. I wish I could traipse on over into other sections and spread my so-called male expertise around, but they would hand me my head, and rightly so. Here in MtF, however, the ones we allegedly emulate often spoil the porridge, and nobody comes to our support…
I wish to say BRAVO to your statement (quoted above)! You’ll find out, over time, that your “normal” crossdressing opinions carry ZERO weight around here, and, even when they are carefully expressed (with eloquence), they will be summarily undermined and ignored. It takes true courage to submit what you wrote, and I admire you for it. If you infer some frustration in my words, you would be absolutely correct. I’m in the process of losing my “religion,” you know…
How can we have genuine discussions if people won’t at least CONSIDER other viewpoints?
Case in point...
Freddy, I think you will find that you and I agree on most things. It's just that the "gender" word seems to be so frightening to the CDers who do identify male, that I suspect it is hard to see the true meaning behind the term "cross-gender expression". Instead, I get the impression that you, Veronica, and other male-identified CDers perhaps, take it as meaning "transgender". It doesn't.
Reine
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