Friend asked about F on DL and bathrooms.

[Nicole Erin]

I have a good friend here in town that is transitioning. She has an "F" on the DL, something about social security law change made that possible...

Today we were out along a trail and she brought up the restroom thing and she is uncomfy with it. She said, "If they gave me hell about using the women's room, what would happen if they asked for ID? Can they even do that?"
At the time I was thinking about something else but I just said, "Ain't nobody gonna say anything unless you are in the restroom making a scene like asking the other women if you can (perform obscene act) or if you are waving your (equipment) around and saying (cure arnold voice) "I am the Penetrator!"
Well yeah, we are kind of crude about things at times.

Anyways I sent her a text later saying that most people won't ask cause they don't want to open a can of worms. I explained it is kind of for the same reason that the DMV doesn't break out a scale when fat women claim to weigh 120 pounds.
Said friend has not really built a lot of confidence yet. She does go out dressed but still a lot of anxiety. I guess at her job she catches a ton of hell about being TS so dealing with that probable doesn't help.

Does that seem about right? I mean what security, manager, or even policeman wants to get into that mess? I mean the person who persues it could open themselves to a lawsuit, especially if the person is legally a new gender.

[sandra-leigh]

I have seen articles that together hint that mall security guards can be a pain, either due to someone complaining (not even necessarily someone using the washroom) or due to the guard disliking trans people, or due to the guard liking to throw weight around. Unfortunately if the security guard is liking to throw weight around then you are going to lose, as the guard can ban you for being in the wrong washroom, and if you try to explain that you are in the right one then the guard can ban you for causing a disturbance. Malls are (almost always) private property and Due Process does not apply.

The police sometimes don't know the rules and think they are doing the right thing.

In some states, the police are implicitly encouraged to find ways to bother transpeople. When a state senator talks about wanting to smash the heads of trans people, and gets support, you know you aren't in the best of places to be.

[AveryS]

Most police can't be bothered - they only act when there is a complaint (although in certain states I understand that they may be under orders to harass trans women specifically). I believe most cis women also don't want the hassle of calling the police and being caught up in statements, etc. Time is too valuable to care about this kind of thing.

Just as sandra-leigh said - the rent-a-cops at the mall desperately want to prove themselves and will go out of their way just for the sake of looking busy. In the end, read the environment. Use the restroom in a department store - they are far less likely to cause a fuss with their customers than the mall itself.

[danielleb]

I'm sure you know already, but at some point you just have to dive in and stand up for yourself. Push aside the fears and "what if's" and start acting like the woman you are claiming to be. It's not as easy as it is to say, but nothing about this life is easy! It all happens on our own time, and to try and push something on her isn't going to do any good. I'd guess it's pretty unlikely that she's ever going to have a problem, I haven't yet, but if something did come up she's already done the appropriate thing by having that invaluable F on her drivers license. So people can cry and scream all they want, she has the legal entitlement to use the women's restroom. If she really needs help with getting over that fear she's lucky to have you! There's always a bit of safety in numbers so maybe you could get her used to the idea that not all eyes are on her when she goes to the restroom.

[kimdl93]

I'm sure there is a security guard out there who carries a personal agenda. But I also know that in my own experience...with an "M" on the DL, I've never been questioned, never drawn a unpleasant remark or glance. I suspect the fears are overblown. Maybe in the wrong Arizona town someone might object. But most of the time, I suspect that store policies would forbid such discriminatory behavior.

after reading the comment below, I wondered if I've ever encountered a bathroom monitor, there to assure that people go to the "proper" restroom. Can't think of any such experience, ever.

[arbon]

It would be kinda weird getting asked for your id to use a bathroom.

You would think with all the hoopla that comes up about us using bathrooms from some people in our society when anti discrimination laws come up that there would be a lot more issues with us being harassed then there seems to be.

I can understand the fear she has though, it can take a while to find that confidence in yourself.

[sandra-leigh]

Hah, yes, I have encountered a bathroom attendant, there to steer people to one side or the other. It happens sometimes in Europe, seemingly more so in train stations.

The attendants are often also responsible for cleaning and restocking, both on a as needed basis, and sometimes they also have the towel. When they do have a towel, a payment is either required or expected. Sometimes it is coin turn-style entry, sometimes it is give the money to the attendant.

The attendants I encountered were very often female, and as part of their duties they walked around in the male part while the men were using the facilities, including when using urinals that had no protection for individual privacy. The locals never seemed to notice (just the tourists like me.)

[Nicole Erin]

I am not sure what she is afraid of. I mean rent-a-cops are the least scary thing in the world. My two best friends are rent-a-cops and they have the "same rights of a citizen" meaning no real authority. All that aside, I think she is still trying to find her own confidence in transitioning to full time.
I might explain a thing or two if I can catch her attention for more than three seconds.

[Eryn]

I agree with Nicole Erin. Being banned from a mall is pretty much unenforceable. With an "F" on the ID she could easily end up considerably richer if a security guard pressed the issue.

I don't have the correct gender marker but I really don't worry about it. There are many GGs who are just naturally mannish in appearance and the possibility that a guard might be accosting one of these will keep all but the stupidest ones away from me. I go in, do my business, wash my hands, and get out. As long as I'm not doing anything suspicious, like loitering, they have nothing to complain about.

We each have our own fears that to others might seem odd. I'll blithely stroll in and out of the ladies' room and regularly visit my electrologist, but I fear having a makeover at a cosmetic store or visiting a manicurist. Eventually I'll work my way past these. I have plenty of time.

[sandra-leigh]

Mall cops have the authority to initiate a ban, quite possibly from every property owned by the same company. So if you happen to run into a chip-on-a-shoulder in a small mall, you could find yourself unable to go to more than half of the major malls in your province or state -- even if said mall contains a government office you need to go to. Bans are issued under trespassing laws, and there is not necessarily a time limit on them.

I have read about one dresser (not yet legally female) who ended up banned from a series of 8 co-managed malls for using the women's washroom when there was no-one else in it.

"Disturbing the other customers" applies whether you have an F or not. Main difference is that you get to write back to the mall administration and flash your F and say "Are you sure?" with a more significant chance of the company rescinding the ban. But as long as you are still legally M, unless the mall administration company has a gender-identity friendly policy, the admin company is more likely to accept that word of the rent-a-copy that you were somewhere you should not have been.

It might not be "real authority" but it can be a heck of a nuisance.

[Chickhe]

I know in Ontario, a washroom in any public space of a privately owned restaurant or mall is open to anyone. For example, a restaurant is open to the public so it becomes a public space and they are not allowed to charge a fee to use the washrooms and they are not allowed to restrict access from say a homeless person in the street. There are laws that prevent certain things such as banning a TS person from a health club, I think it is based on the fact that the city and provinces provides permits for these places and that means there is a link to the discrimination laws.

[Eryn]

If one has an "F" it would be pretty hard for a mall cop to deny the use of a restroom. That amounts to denial of use of a public accommodation because a woman is not attractive. A tort attorney would salivate at the prospect of such a case!

IMO, the best response to such an idiotic action is simply to walk away calmly and not to interact with the guard. It's pretty difficult for a mall cop to "ban" a person whose identity they do not know and if they've received even minimal training they would know better than to physically detain an adult woman whose crime is not well defined. They are not sworn officers and they have no rights beyond those of us ordinary citizens.

Honestly, having one's entire life affected by an incident that someone read about somewhere is a bit silly, particularly if one already has that "F". There is no rash of TG individuals being banned from malls for using restrooms and if one does not draw attention to oneself there is nothing to worry about.

[Rileyaz]

I have used the F bathroom at the mall without any problems, and that is walking by a real cop, not just a mall cop. Just walk calmly and confidently and do your business. No problem.

[danielleb]

Ironically after posting yesterday, this morning I had my first experience with this! I had an appointment at the courthouse this morning, where unfortunately after my suicide attempt I have been going three days or more a week for over a year. As usual I hate having to get undressed for security, but the cops are super jerks there, all jewelry, cell phone, key's, and the usual visual inspection of all things in my purse (because my .5 oz perfume could be explosive!). I got redressed and went into the bathroom to fix my hair (it was 90 and windy) and as soon as I came out one of the cops yelled at me "Give me your license." Startled I readily complied, and then as he studied my license I realized what was going on before he started passing it around to the several other cops at the door. He was checking my I.D. for the F undoubtedly hoping for an M so he could reprimand me or worse. What a bigot! I get it, they're acting under the guise of their "duty to the public" and unfortunately in the legal right, but somewhere I had hoped that a bit of morals and ethics could step in. I mean, I walk by these same guys every time I go there and almost always stop to fix my hair or makeup. Obviously they have noticed me over the past year, I stand out in a crowd! I was so humiliated by the whole thing! Thank god I had Female written there!

[Jessinthesprings]

She is probably going through the same thing I am going through. You sit down logically you know there is little to fear, but when in the moment everything is magnified. "My hair is not right" "I walk too manly" "Everyone knows and they are looking for an excuse to make a scene". It has to be all part of transition. I have talked to several girls and I think it subsides but it does take time.

[I Am Paula]

It's the logistics of bathroom harassment that make me question it.
Like those CSI shows we'll create a timeline.

GG sees you in the ladies room, decides you are genetically male. Reacts. 30-45 seconds
She finishes washing her hands, dries them, and decides to find a mall cop. There are no 'red' phones in the washroom. 2 minutes
Walk to the other end of the mall, cause all the cops are near the food court. Locate a cop that is close enough to finishing his donut to give a damn. 9 minutes
Explain complaint, and why cop should give a damn. 2 minutes.
Cop walks back to washroom. 3 minutes
Elapsed time 16 minutes and 45 seconds.

At this point the offending pervert is on the third floor of Sears looking at Lazy-Boy recliners.

[Ann Louise]

I have ”F” on all my docs, but as of yet (fingers crossed) have never had to use them. I've taken ”becoming a lady" very seriously though, and walk, talk, dress, even cough and sneeze in as ladylike a fashion as I can. I also "tinkle"straight down (heavens, sitting, of course! LOL), so when I'm in the stall I sound just like all the other girls.

[stefan37]

This is NJ law against discrimination: NJ anti-discrimantion law Title 10:5-4 "10:5-4. Obtaining employment, accommodations and privileges without discrimination; civil right.

4. All persons shall have the opportunity to obtain employment, and to obtain all the accommodations, advantages, facilities, and privileges of any place of public accommodation, publicly assisted housing accommodation, and other real property without discrimination because of race, creed, color, national origin, ancestry, age, marital status, affectional or sexual orientation, familial status, disability, nationality, sex , gender identity or expression or source of lawful income used for rental or mortgage payments, subject only to conditions and limitations applicable alike to all persons. This opportunity is recognized as and declared to be a civil right.".

It covers both gender identity and expression. It only covers public accommodations. Companies can at their discretion provide a separate bathroom, however if they only have a men's and woman's restroom, then they can not discriminate.