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Thread: Spousal support

  1. #1
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Spousal support

    I am beyond upset today. Disappointed to some degree, hurt to some degree, but I think I still have a lot of "processing" to do on this.

    Next week, I will start attending a limited-time facilitated support group. The support group is for people intending to transition to some degree or another, and if their past experience is an indication, there will be few traditional MTF, mostly FTM and (even more so) non-binary or "gender queer".

    I am looking forward to it; it feels like a significant step or me to attend this, a real transition group. Like going mid-thigh deep into the water instead of just having the water lap around my ankles all the time while I try to figure out how good my swimming is. (Well, I'm metaphorically deeper than that already, but you get the idea.)

    Last night I mentioned to my wife that I will be out on Tuesday evenings for the next while. My social club for the first week, and then "a limited time support group" for the following weeks. My wife prodded a bit about what the group was for; I said it was for people with gender problems.

    My wife asked, "Oh, you have gender problems?". I said "Yes". My wife then half-laughed and said, "I'm not going to support you." When I asked for clarification, she said "I'm not going to support you with your gender problems. It's too much for me. What about support for me? I don't have any support. I should find some support too."

    To be clear, she was not saying this with a scowl, and it wasn't one of those "Huh!" laughs; it was a sort of melodious laugh, with a bit of smile on her face. Enough so that it wasn't clear whether she was being entirely serious or not.

    Was she being serious? Let me put it this way: She can never remember the name "Sandra", but she can talk for more than half an hour about events that happened to a friend (that she has never met) of a business acquaintance in another city (whom she has not met often at all.) Indeed, the friend of the acquaintance has now been raised in narrative conversation three times in a day and a half.

    If she can remember that much that she has heard once about someone she never met, then it is certainly within her capabilities to remember "Sandra".

    So why doesn't she remember? Because if she "doesn't remember" then it isn't really happening? Or at least it "isn't serious" ?

    On some days she says plainly things like, "If you want to be a woman, you have to learn how to" (e.g., do a decent ponytail.). But on other days, it is like I just happen to be especially persistent about wearing women's clothes "just to dress up".

    Yes, she knows I have been going to gender therapy for years.

    I stayed with her and supported her while she stayed for months 1000 miles away while her father died. I stayed with her and supported her for the 5 years right following while she discovered that her mother had Alzheimer's, and brought her mother to live with us, eventually to die at home. I went to therapy to deal with the stress of that, to deal with the stress of my wife neglecting the relationship (it went beyond just putting her mother first); to deal with the stress of my wife yelling at her mother for things her mother could not control. I have let her put her academic work first for months while she was on a deadline; I helped her with her writing. I supported her and helped her start cleaning up her parent's house (a really lovely place she will likely have to sell.)

    And now that I need support, I get told, "I'm not going to support you."

    Cripes it is hard. Talk about having to be willing to give up everything.

  2. #2
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    Not much I can say, Sandra. Perhaps just one thing ...

    It will help you immensely if you realise at the outset that it would be a mistake to think that you deserve your wife's support, simply because you have supported her in the past. Life doesn't work like that. So don't fall into the trap, for that would be unhelpful in finding the peace you seek.

  3. #3
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    Sandra, would it help to remind her that you have been there to support her? Perhaps not, but it seems worth a try.
    Last edited by kimdl93; 09-09-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  4. #4
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    it would be a mistake to think that you deserve your wife's support, simply because you have supported her in the past.
    I agree completely. None of us ever completely escape the sense of unfairness when this happens, though. We bring some of this down on ourselves. We focus on the give and take that goes on in all relationships. As a practical matter, that's how things work. But that's not the same as entitlement. So when we feel betrayed by our expectations, we go down the path… First, we express our dismay or hurt. Then we can talk about fairness and balance. If that doesn't work, we start moralizing. And at our worst, we turn it into condemnation.

    It is hard. It feels cold. Because it is.
    Last edited by LeaP; 09-09-2013 at 05:11 PM. Reason: Added quote
    Lea

  5. #5
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    It is not that she doesn't remember your name Sandra, she probably finds it difficult to use. I know several trans spouses including my own that refuse to call their trans husbands by their new name. I have supported my wife more than anybody could expect and she knows this. She has feelings of guilt because she knows I am her biggest fan and not only supported her but encouraged her to break out and grow. She knows in her heart she should support me, but logic tells her otherwise. She is having a real difficult time accepting what I am doing. I am sure your wife and many other wives feel the same way. It is extremely rare to find the spouse that will not only support but encourage us in our journey. I try to continue to support my wife and even though she can not support me I certainly do not hold that against her. her thoughts, opinions and feelings are valid , whether I agree or not. She has a hard time wrapping her head around why would a mid life male need to change gender. She has been in therapy with her own therapist as long as I have and it still is a mystery to her. She has tried very hard to learn, she has been around and conversed with my friends, she accompanied me to the hospital to visit my friend as she was recovering from srs.

    I have stopped talking about my transition unless she brings it up. We have a much more honest communication than ever before, not that it makes it any easier. As a matter of fact as I have changed my name and Stephen is no more and Stephanie is now here, it has become more disconnected. She had to go to the bank today to sign a new signature card as I changed my name on the business bank account. She was very uncomfortable.

    That is the danger I see as we transition and slow down or stop to please our wives, they get lulled into a false sense of security that it will go no further and when it in evidently does, problems arise. I was totally honest when I told her I was transitioning and she choose denial. well denial does her no good as she is finding out. you have to be honest and pull no punches. If you truly feel you can live in the middle, compromise and acquiesce work fine. If you truly need to transition, their can be no compromise and that is what causes the rift. It is hurtful, painful and sometimes very messy, but there is no other way. As Lea said it is brutal.
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

    "Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation

    "A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W

  6. #6
    Silver Member Kathryn Martin's Avatar
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    ...and not to forget playing the victim. You are not the victim you are the actor, you can hope for and receive support but you cannot demand it.
    "Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)

  7. #7
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    What does a (common-law) spouse owe the other, if not even an effort to understand a partner's major life issue?

    The situation is reminding me a lot of when she walked away from sex. No concept of exchange of intimacy. (This started years before I had any idea I was a cross-dresser.) "If it doesn't feel right then it shouldn't happen at all." I was given to understand that it was wrong for me to even be interested in sex anymore (with anyone); that any continued interest was because I was way oversexed or was a pervert. I was angry (but held that inside) for years until I remembered that "No-one owes anyone sex". When I remembered that, I stopped being angry -- but I was still rather hurt and disappointed. Still, I resolved that the relationship included a lot more than sex, and could continue on with mutual love and respect and support.

    But now it's seeming the same. She isn't getting any enjoyment out of me being trans, so I should just stop. Or if I can't do that, get out.

    If she is not even going to try to support or understand me on this, then what is left? Sex is gone, she hasn't spoken of love for ... I literally cannot remember... she doesn't respect me, because of my depression and (I think even more so) because I am unemployed. And it looks like mutual support is gone too??

    True, she doesn't "owe" me those things, no matter how much I did for her. One cannot force oneself to give any of those things if they aren't there. If she isn't willing to put work into the relationship, only to do what "comes naturally"...

    Yah, I'm hurting.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Lori Kurtz's Avatar
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    I don't think I'd be saying this, if I hadn't noticed that in another thread, you said that the reason you wear panties is, "I wear panties because I am not a guy." Some SOs are willing to stay with a TS--a person who is no longer (er... well, more likely never was) the man she thought she was marrying. Some try, and find that they can't. And some don't even try. It sounds like your SO is in one of those last two categories. Does it even matter which? It sounds like she's frustrated and angry that her hopes cannot be satisfied with you. And your hopes aren't being satisfied either. I'm not telling you what to do, other than to raise this issue with your therapist, because it appears to me that you're on a path that she will not travel with you. Am I right? Ask your therapist to help you answer that question.

  9. #9
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    Sandra, she may not owe you anything, but a relationship long devoid of intimacy seems to me a relationship that has long,lost its purpose for being. She doesn't owe anything, but the converse is true. So choose for yourself what works for you.

  10. #10
    Senior Member StephanieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimdl93 View Post
    a relationship long devoid of intimacy seems to me a relationship that has long,lost its purpose for being.
    I dunno. I think intimacy means different things to different people. Does it need to include "relations"? Could it be "small things", shared experiences?

    Sandra, I really feel for you. But I'm not sure I have any answers. Well, perhaps one: I think love must be given freely, without condition.

    Relationships can be hell.

    -stephani

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandra-leigh View Post
    And now that I need support, I get told, "I'm not going to support you."
    Hello Sandra, I'm sorry about your situation w/ the wife on this. I believe she's handling it the best way possible for her. She hopes this is just a wild hair and time will heal you. You starting to want too make things happen and she's just getting read to start freaking out. Just a normal reaction for unaccepting spouses. Nothing too worry about if you don't decide on staying w/ her. If you do, that's a different story. Best of Luck too you.

  12. #12
    Julie Gaum Julie Gaum's Avatar
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    So many things not working on both sides that I can't imagine the two therapists can be of any further value. Only suggestion I would offer is for you to make a list of the things you believe you need to once again lead a "happy" or contented life. Love and respect are two that should be mutually included IMO. After you have worked out that list --- take a few days to do it --- then arrange for the most serious TALK
    that you will ever have for the outcome --- if understanding is not found for both --- should decide your future decisions --- can't keep going the way you are now.
    Julie

  13. #13
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    Why would you believe she would derive any enjoyment from your transness. You are every thing she does not want you to be. You cannot expect her to support you. Those few mates than can accept and support their spouses through transition are extremely rare. I know if no couple still together other than the few on this forum. The majority of those on this forum that espouse acceptance have made concessions and compromises to live within their spouses comfort level.

    My wife and I have been in separate rooms for 5 months. We have not been intimate for at least 12 months. Our marriage is effectively over. We are platonic roommates and are navigating forging a new relationship as friends. We are not even sure we will be succesful.
    Many of us play the victim. I believe the true victim us our spouse. They did not want this. They play no part usually when we decide to transition. My wife disconnected from me, yet I hold no malice towards her. She is a remarkable woman that has put up with my hobbies and eccentricities for a very long time. She is not wired to be in a relationship with a woman and knows in her heart she can not be with me as such. Dies it hurt? I would be lying if I said it did not. I will continue to support her as much as she will allow. Regardless of her support to me.

    We have a tremendous support network available to us. Yet for our wives it is nonexistent.

    If you no longer share common goals and you drift apart. It is time to move on. It hurts it is painful but for the betterment of both parties. My wife and I realize we both will be better living apart. We have tried staying as roommates, and she has discovered it is too painful watching her man change. I take responsibility for the dissolution but it is what it will be.
    You might want to seriously talk with her about your futures and as hard as it is. It may be better to move on for both your health.
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

    "Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation

    "A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W

  14. #14
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    Let me phrase the "enjoyment" part a bit differently.

    Suppose a partner were in the habit of judging situations according to "What's in it for me?", and suppose the partner was not in the habit of looking much beyond the obvious.

    Direct unlubricated penetration is no longer as comfortable for menopause reasons? Response: cut out the sex. The intimacy received, the all-body sensations, alternate modes of orgasm, the intimacy sent, the pleasure the other partner gets in giving intimacy: none of those are obvious, so they aren't important. Effect on the partner? "Not my problem". "Be a good little husband and stop even wanting it; your desires in this matter are a bother to me."

    Partner has a major crisis? "Is there any direct benefit to me in having this resolved? No? Be a good little husband and stop even wanting it; your desires in this matter are a bother to me."

    (Realize for this purpose that the person might not realize what they are doing -- and might not be interested enough to work on the situation even if it is brought to their attention.)

    Stephanie, your wife is trying. My wife doesn't seem to be, though she has been given numerous opportunities (and requests) to be involved.

    The one person outside of my immediate family who (in theory) loves me best, cannot be bothered to even try to understand. Makes me feel great about my place in the world.

    I've lived large portions of my life living life as I must, making hard hard decisions, mostly by myself, to keep my self respect, knowing that the decisions will have unpleasant consequences but that they are The Right Thing To Do. The worst person to "sell out" is yourself. It is looking like this is going to have to be another one of those near-solo decisions.
    Last edited by sandra-leigh; 09-10-2013 at 12:56 AM.

  15. #15
    . Aprilrain's Avatar
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    Why are you still with this person?

  16. #16
    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    Sometimes I notice in marriage that one partner seems to have all the power and they are usually the dominant one in the relationship.

    This arrangement tends to be made up of one person being naturally selfish and the other being naturally selfless.

    I was always the selfless one in relationships and that is why I knew that I would have to make a choice between fighting for my own survival by avoiding relationships that placed me in this position.

    If your natural disposition in a relationship is to be the giver and you are giving to someone who not only is more than happy to be the receiver but also resents expectations of reciprocity than the problems of transitioning will be magnified tenfold.

    In my opinion a transsexual cannot afford to be selfless because you are putting your life at risk.

    I will always be selfless because that is my nature and I like giving and have little need to take but if you wish to live this way you must do it after transitioning and not before.

    To be selfless first you must be selfish.

    When you are drowning and everyone else is breathing worrying about how much oxygen you are using up is not something to be concerned about.

  17. #17
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    A certain part of Sandra's opening post struck a chord. Her partner said
    "I'm not going to support you with your gender problems. It's too much for me. What about support for me? I don't have any support. I should find some support too."
    When I was heading towards going full time my long time partner said something very similar, and she was so right - there is so little support for partners, especially for those who don't want to lose their relationship. My partner at the time (we had been together, albeit not living together, for over ten years at the time that I went full time) likened it to a death of a loved one and grieving. But she had no support network, no social group that she could go to to discuss what she was going through.

    So although I totally get what you're going through Sandra, I do get what your partner is going through too.

    My former partner is now living with a guy, but she's still my best friend and me hers.

  18. #18
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    You give, give, give, and forgive, and what you get back is largely in the form of diverse intangibles like companionship, a little help in emergencies and a few good times. Been there. At least you have not yet reached the stage of getting major and virulent vituperation back. Hopefully your partner is not that volatile, but it seems to follow this stage quite typically. Might be wise to make some preparations anyway, to protect your interests have emotional/counselling support and an escape plan, in case of that eventuality. Hugs. Beth.
    Last edited by Beth-Lock; 09-10-2013 at 03:01 AM.

  19. #19
    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandra-leigh View Post
    "Be a good little husband and stop even wanting it; your desires in this matter are a bother to me."
    I put up with this nonsense for 27.5 years before T came along and promised me heaven on earth. I can still see the look of utter devastation on my wife's face the day I walked away. To paraphrase a line from a song by Don McLean, "She never thought I'd leave, until I went."

    Sandra, it's time to leave her.

  20. #20
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    Hi Sandra, your wife sounds like mine, only less emotional. My wife screamed the first time I went to a trans support group and felt that I identified with the folks there.

    I have supported her through lots of stuff, but she is unable to deal with my transition, so four months after coming out to her, I was out the mutha-humpin door.

    What can you reasonably expect from partner in a marriage? Based on my experience, nothing. I have my doubts I'll ever go through this again. (Lol, assuming I have the opportunity ever again!)

    You aren't wrong to feel you aren't getting much back for your past loyalty. It mostly just doesn't exist anymore, I guess. Our world is all about "what have you done for me lately."

  21. #21
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    Specifically with regards to your transness, and your possible transition, she owes you nothing.

    I'm not saying that to be mean (although it is kinda mean)..i'm saying it because understanding and accepting that as the reality will give you the best chance of the best possible outcome, whatever it may be.

    Changing your gender role is outside the bounds of any reasonable concept of a male and female marriage..it just is... that doesn't mean you can't be soul mates, it would be great if your wife can see past your gender and see the real you..but the real you is not who she married...

    IF your gender role was NOT critically important to your day to day life, then you wouldn't have to change it.. and in your marriage your gender role is fully half the equation..

    I am really really sorry you and your wife are in this situation and I hope you guys work it out... you are a thoughtful and compassionate person based on your posts..

    ..It's me belief that to get the best outcome its best to accept that its her call whether to stick around, and punishing her or YOURSELF for it is not going to help either of you... that acceptance can help ease your wife's anxiety and feelings and perhaps open a door to a best case relationship for both of you..

    I guess its a case of sometimes you have to choose ...transition or marriage...
    and that's just one of the reasons why we always say don't transition unless you have to..
    Last edited by Kaitlyn Michele; 09-10-2013 at 06:47 AM.

  22. #22
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    Although I agree with Kaitlyn that transition is outside the bounds of any traditional M/F marriage, I really think we take this a little harder on ourselves as trans women than we need to. If it makes you feel any better, there are TONS of things that can go wrong for you that your spouse can fail to "be there for you:"
    - prostate cancer or other serious illness
    - job loss / career change
    - infidelity (on her part, not yours - you can be loyal, she doesn't have to be!)
    Just look at the divorce statistics. It's really romantic to think "until death do us part!" But realistically almost NOBODY believes that shit anymore. I mean, who has time to put up with a spouse who's having some type of crisis?

    Marriage may mean something to YOU, but to society in general? Nah, it doesn't mean a thing.

  23. #23
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    A marriage is give and take, but that does not mean that you both have to give or take. There are some things that just can't be dealt with, especially something you cannot understand. The majority of traditional marriages is based upon the male being the strong one, the rock, the provider. Your SO is losing that security on which she has based her life with you.

    Unfortunately there is very little support for the SO of a transgendered person, even this forum can only provide limited support. It is time to sit together, decide what you want out of your life together and if you can't come to a compromise, in which both of you give and take, then it could be time to say "Sorry I have to do this, we can't agree on a way forward".

    Time to look deep into your heart and make a tough decision.
    Listen carefully to what is said, quite often you can hear what is not being said

    The joy of correcting a mistake can bring pain to another

  24. #24
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    I have to agree with April...your description of your wife suggests indifference on her part and deep resentment on yours. If there was once affection, it seems now to be absent. How would one restore this? I don't know. And I guess the larger question is whether you want this to go on. Do you?

  25. #25
    Senior Member stefan37's Avatar
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    My wife has reiterated what Kaitlyn was saying. The concept of a middle aged male changing genders is so far out of her realm, she can not wrap her around it. Sandra my wife is trying, but we both have realized we will need to move on. We are presently attempting to forge a new friendship relationship based on our love and time we have spent together. Whether we will be successful or not time will tell.

    You need to have a serious talk with your spouse and from the looks of it you will need to move on also. It is painful, hurtful, fraught with many emotional feelings, but in the long run will allow you to grow as the person you need to be. It is an unfortunate brutal truth that marriage is many more times than not a casualty . It is neither party 's fault, and to allow each partner a chance to find happiness, the ties need to be severed as husband and wife. This journey we embark takes us down roads we must travel along. It would be nice for our spouse to walk with us, but for many reasons they cannot. It is a lonely existence at times for sure.

    We also have a tremendous support network available to us, and our spouses for the most part have nothing. That weighs on my wife's mind especially in the beginning. It is unfortunate but a fact that is often overlooked. Our wives are left to their own devices and depending on where they receive their information could impact their views.
    "When failure is off the table the only thing left is to negotiate levels of success" M Hobbes

    "Never Let your Fear Decide Your Fate" Awolnation

    "A new dawn destroys the tranquility of the darkness" Steph W

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