Have you CONVINCED yourself that you’re a woman?

[Frédérique]

A week or so after the fact, and I’m still thinking about this extremely profound post:

The Night before last, I really felt like i am a girl. I am. How did you girls feel when you first convinced yourselves(?)

This could be the proverbial cornerstone of transgender – the act of convincing yourself that you’re a woman. I guess that’s why I don’t feel I’m TG, despite protestations to the contrary – I never tried to convince myself, indeed such a thing is either pointless or impossible, in my case. For others, convincing yourself may be a lifelong quest, a quest fraught with ups and downs, miscellaneous difficulties, and even the “tough love” of one’s own adopted community...

Convince is a strong word. It means to overcome the doubts of, to persuade, or to satisfy by evidence or argument, also to convict. The need to convince implies a certain level of doubt in one’s mind, if you wish (in this instance), to come to a point where you are convinced you’re a woman. If you’re MtF, as we who frequent this section mostly are, wouldn’t you say that your convictions, either desired or already present, have to persuade (or influence) his will? You either feel that you’re a woman, or you really should’ve been a woman, or you really WANT to be a woman, for whatever reason, so you set out to convince yourself of this fact, regardless of the cost, no matter what it takes...

To me, that is the essence of transgender, and I can now better understand why TG individuals are so defensive about things – it takes a lot of effort, this convincing, and nothing will deter the person from attaining a state where there are NO doubts. Fair enough. As I said earlier, I have no need to convince myself I’m a woman – I just dress like one, to appear like one, for a brief time, purely for enjoyment. I’m convinced I’m a MtF crossdresser, and nothing more. I have no doubts about that. I may look like a woman, to a certain degree, and I may entertain the idea of feeling like a woman now and then (according to my own precepts), but I could not persuade anyone that I actually WAS a woman. Speaking of certainty, I don’t have the full assurance of mind that is required to overcome my birth gender, something that, to me at least, cannot be denied...

I appreciate the effort required by a person struggling to convince, just like I admire those who have “won the battle,” so to say, as if there ever was a battle to begin with. I encounter many true individuals on this site who are imbued with the most heroic convictions – they have accepted themselves, indeed convinced themselves, of something that cannot be denied. Is it true that many people on this site have fulfilled the conditions of their personal mindset, achieving an unquestionable transgendered being, gratifying one’s wants, desires, and wishes? In other words, can you convince yourself that you’re a woman if you really want to? History is full of people who were convinced they were one thing or another, so they set out to satisfy this inner longing. I love people who reinvent themselves, a true act of courage in the face of conformity, but is convincing yourself that you’re a woman an act of courage or an act of necessity?

Rather than reinvent myself, I created an alter ego, or another aspect of myself, via crossdressing. I didn’t set out to do that, rather it was an outgrowth of my tactile, fetishistic proclivities. In many ways I am my own bosom buddy (pun unintended), a close friend or companion who is always there. This was the inevitable result of my isolated childhood, but I never felt that I actually was a girl. A quick glance in the mirror precludes any need to convince me otherwise. Crossdressing created my alter ego, simply by putting a new frame around something that was already there. This new aspect of me caused a few convulsions, but no need to convince myself that the boy wasn’t still there, under the clothes and makeup. As such, I could safely skip the need for conversion, or transmutation, from one state to another, and just enjoy my femme adornments...

If you have convinced yourself that you’re a woman, how did you accomplish it? I’d like to know. Really. You don’t have to convince me that transgender people exist, since I already know that. You also don’t have to convince me that there are males by birth who actively convince themselves they are actually women, or boys who are convinced that they are really girls. I know that, too. I admire your convictions, whoever you are, wherever you are, and whatever you are. I am, in many ways, a sympathetic bystander who is easy to persuade, or convince. I’m not here to convict you of a crime against gender, like outsiders might do. If you wish to convince yourself that you’re a woman, existing in fact and truth, sure and inevitable, I’m definitely on your side. I hope I’ve convinced you of that...

Are you convinced that you’re a woman? Tell me about it...

BTW – Even though I could never convince myself that I’m a woman, I’m convinced I’m an artist. I’ve convinced others of this unalterable fact, too, so I’m satisfied. However, I’m not convinced I’m a writer, so please relax...

[Lorileah]

Semantics once again. You take the word convince to extremes. Transsexuals don't have to convince themselves, they are. CDs use the word convince in a more liberal way. They convince themselves that they look the part. They, as you point out, are not nor will be a woman. But they look convincing either to themselves or to the world at least at a glance.

You try and make a case that certain people here work to become something they are not, that they consciously decide to change. The only conscious part of it is to stop pretending to be something you aren't in a transsexual light. Those who are innate women only have to decide if they want to become a woman. I suppose there is some convincing needed for that but they know inside what they are. If you have to convince yourself, you ain't one.

My take on the quote was that the person actually hit upon the combination to be "convincing" to themselves and others in a public manner. Not that they had an epiphany that they were in the wrong body.

And why are you not convinced you are a writer? You may not have been published nor paid for your writing but you are most definitely a writer. Now convincing yourself to submit an article...that is another matter

[arbon]

I used to always try to convince and accept myself being a man,

being a woman is much less work and mind games

[SophieKitty]

For me i don't need convincing of who I am. I am who I am

[kimdl93]

No, I most certainly have not. As we have learned by now - there are many gradients of TG from the occassional dresser to those who wish to or need to live full time as a woman. And there are similar variations in the extent that each of us identifies as female. A transsexual can rightly say she is a woman. Some TG people may be very close to expressing that feeling, but I suspect that most are somewhere farther away on the spectrum.

So where am I...well, I have no qualms in saying that I am biologically male. I have a murkier conception of my inner self. I enjoy presenting as a woman, and quite frankly I'm much happier, much more comfortable doing so. But, unlike a TS person, I don't feel gender dysphoria...at least not beyond a measure of discomfort when I have to present as male. Theres a lot of lattitude allowed for how one feels, how one chooses to present oneself.

[Persephone]

Frédérique, you have to read Shel Silverstein's Lafcadio, The Lion Who Shot Back.

I don't know precisely what I am. Frankly, I don't care if I am a CD, a TG, or a TS, the thing I do know is that I am me, competent, confident, and caring. I can sometimes be found between the Mounds and the Almond Joy (Hm, a better analogy than I thought when I ws just thinking "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't").

It took me a long time to get where I am today, a long, long difficult time. But I've become convinced that plumbing is not destiny.

The thing I now know is that I can move easily into the world of women and be accepted. Men treat me as a woman, they hold doors, they say "Ma'm," and they even sometimes dance with me. Women accept me as just another woman, no doubts, no hesitations, no surprises.

I socialize, eat, drink, exercise, and be merry as a woman. I've even spent weeks travelling as "just one of the girls" (I don't know how else to express it) with other women. Picture three or four women sharing a common bathroom mirror area as we all apply our makeup and you'll get the idea.

And that means that when I am out with others I am a woman, right down to my core. No need to pretend.

Hugs,
Persephone.

P.S. - After I posted I was checking my email and thought the following interchange would illustrate my point of view:

I'd received an invitation to a women's group lady's only party.

ME: Hi M! Please put me on the list for the party. I would like to bring a dessert but please let me know if you need me to do something else instead. Hugs, Barbara

HER: Barbara, You are on the list. I am glad you are coming. I do not want to specifically assign any food. Dessert is good....if you can and would like to make deviled eggs, that would be great, do not have that as yet. If you want to bake dessert, something with cooked/baked apples, coffee cake, cup cakes, ehatever you want to make will be perfect. M.

[NicoleScott]

Not yet, but I'll keep practicing.

[PaulaQ]

The trouble with the word convince is that it implies that you talked yourself into being a woman, and therefore that you had a choice in the matter. I don't think that's what you mean at all, Frederique, based on the rest of your post. I think you mean something more along the lines of deduce - i.e. how'd you figure out the reality of your situation, since the false belief for some of us is that we were actually men.

So assuming that's how you mean it - and if I'm wrong about that please correct me - I spent the first part of this year in therapy, and in a great deal of introspection over the extreme distress, depression, and anxiety I was feeling. (When I say extreme I mean just that - I was suicidal and borderline paranoid.) I noticed that my anxiety lessened massively when I was crossdressed. I noticed that I didn't dress to get off, or to feel good - I noticed I dressed to feel normal. I also considered the weird emotional and psychological stuff going on with me. I basically couldn't pee standing up. There was no physical reason for that - I just couldn't do it, especially in a public men's restroom. Looking at women's clothes in a store felt normal - it's hard to explain this, but I'd always resisted this type of thing - what if someone noticed something was wrong with me?!? My thoughts seemed alien to me, there was this part of me that was trying to claw its way out.

I also realized that I'd had similar, but not as extreme, thoughts and feelings twice before in my life, when I was younger. Both times, I suppressed this stuff, but not before it made really pretty decent attempts to kill me (suicidal thoughts the first time, along with hallucinations, and alcoholism the second time), and that both of those prior events paled in comparison to what I was currently going through.

So I spent lots of time in therapy, and even more time by myself, alone in my study after my wife went to bed, and I finally reached the inescapable conclusion that I was transsexual - that I'd been born a woman trapped in a man's body, and that I'd been hiding and suppressing this for my entire life, at least since I was 10 or so. I realized it explained my feelings of alienation from other people, especially men.

I remember weeping bitterly when I realized all of this, and finally said to myself "oh my god, I'm a woman." Because I knew that such portions of my life as I did like, like my marriage, my beautiful home, my observatory, all of that stuff I was going to lose. I knew this with an icy certainty. I'd hoped I was wrong (paranoia - remember), but I knew it was likely the reality. I feared I'd disappoint and lose my children, and that they'd hate me for lying to them for their entire lives. I feared I'd lose my friends, and that people wouldn't respect me any longer - that I'd disappoint them. And my wife, oh my god, my wife - I knew with certainty that I'd destroy her happiness, probably forever, and ruin the one place she'd ever felt she could truly call home. The guilt I felt over all of that was unbelievable. I hadn't wept in a long time - tears are hard for me, even now - but I wept that night. I was certain I'd never be accepted as a woman, and yet had no choice but to live as one. I couldn't imagine a worse fate.

There were a lot of things I liked about my life - my life didn't suck. (Far from it.) The trouble is - I sucked! I hated myself. I have always felt like a horrible person. I'm not a horrible person - I'm quite the opposite, but I *hated* myself. I hated my image in the mirror - so ugly. I hated my body. And I was starting to really be bothered by certain male characteristics of mine. My body hair freaked me out. My male shape seemed grotesque. (That stuff is still alive and well, and getting worse. It is really uncomfortable!)

I regretted selling my boat that night. Suicide via boating accident would've been really hard to prove, without a note. People die on the water all the time. My wife and kids could at least have collected my life insurance that way.

It was a terrible night, that night in March - and I faced it alone. I came out to my wife three weeks later.

[Marcelle]

Hi Freddy,

Though provoking thread.

No, I have not convinced myself I am a woman nor am I likely to do so in the future. That part of me which is male is still very much a part of my life and I like what I see when look at him in the mirror. In the same bane, that side of me who expresses herself en femme is just that, my feminine side made as real as possible. As you said, one look in the mirror and know I am not a woman nor am I ever likely to be confused with one. However, Isha is the vessel which holds my feminine soul the same way my boy mode holds my masculine soul. Both have a place.

The only thing I am slowing convincing myself of as I move down this pathway, is that I am normal, I am the me I was always supposed to be. If that means part of me has a desire to dress en femme and express herself through pretty clothes, lingerie and feminine gestures, then that is no different than me presenting myself in male attire to express that which is masculine in me.

Will I present en femme in public someday . . . perhaps. However, it won't be because I convinced myself I am a woman, it will be because I convinced myself to accept me for who I am. But alas . . . I still have a long journey ahead of me.

Hugs

Isha

[Cynthia Anne]

The only thing I'm convince of is my outside needs to match my inside! I did not convince myself of that! For that is a fact! No convincing needed!

[Veronica27]

[COLOR="black"]This could be the proverbial cornerstone of transgender – the act of convincing yourself that you’re a woman. I guess that’s why I don’t feel I’m TG, despite protestations to the contrary – I never tried to convince myself, indeed such a thing is either pointless or impossible, in my case. For others, convincing yourself may be a lifelong quest, a quest fraught with ups and downs, miscellaneous difficulties, and even the “tough love” of one’s own adopted community...

The trouble with the word convince is that it implies that you talked yourself into being a woman, and therefore that you had a choice in the matter. I don't think that's what you mean at all, Frederique, based on the rest of your post. I think you mean something more along the lines of deduce - i.e. how'd you figure out the reality of your situation, since the false belief for some of us is that we were actually men.

So the question is "do we convince ourselves that we are women, or deduce that we are women? This distinction is an extremely important one, because either way implies that being a woman was not an obvious fact at the outset. Deducing that we are involves an analysis of all the pertinent facts, resulting in a somewhat objective conclusion that we are. Convincing ourselves does not involve such an analysis, but instead is more of an example of good salesmanship.

Paula did not think that the "convince" approach was what Frederique meant, but I tend to think that for some people, that was precisely the message. Please forgive me if I have misinterpreted anything, as I am no doubt influenced by some of my own viewpoints on the issue. I have often alluded to the fact that prevailing attitudes about such things as the subject of this thread, provide a safe explanation of our unusual and somewhat anti-social predilections. Leaving the reasons for those activities to the more hedonistic explanations of enjoyment, adventure, etc. leaves us open to the ridicule of others.

How many of those who believe that they are to some extent women, do so as a result of careful analysis of their own psyche, and how many have been persuaded to think that way because of the overall tenor of the opinions on forums such as this? There is certainly a degree of safety in being a part of a seemingly vocal majority, especially when the message is one that appears to provide such a facile explanation. However, what really matters, whatever the reasons, is the extent to which we are being true to ourselves.

A great topic, and I hope it "convinces" many to "deduce" some thoughtful replies.

Veronica

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I don't have to... I know I'm both.


*hugs*
Bethany

[Angela.Moni]

I feel so womanly I forget about "the other" me. I just feel like a woman, 100%. You would have to convince me otherwise.

[nethiker55]

I don't have to or want to! I am what I am sometimes I am more comfortable just allowing the female side of me take charge. I am a male who has many female feelings and traits. Sometimes I love to be dressed as a woman and feel all soft and sexy and sometimes I do very manly things like rebuilding my house or work on my truck. I know I am not a woman and never will be but I seem more womanly every year. They say we all start out female and then develop as a male. I always felt that development in me was stunted and I never quite made it all the way to male and with each passing year I become more female and less male

[Georgina]

No and I will not be trying to do so. Happy as I am.

[Deedee Skyblue]

Nope, Freddy, and I don't even try. I'm a guy and in this life, at least, a guy I'll remain. Maybe in my next life.

Deedee

[Michelle789]

I think it's more trying to come to terms with who I really am rather than convincing myself of my gender identity.

[Frédérique]

As we have learned by now - there are many gradients of TG from the occasional dresser to those who wish to or need to live full time as a woman. And there are similar variations in the extent that each of us identifies as female. A transsexual can rightly say she is a woman. Some TG people may be very close to expressing that feeling, but I suspect that most are somewhere farther away on the spectrum.

I detect a lot of “convincing” going on right here, on this site, as evidenced by the plethora of posts declaring one’s intentions, femme mindset, or things yet to accomplish. To some, not much convincing is required, while to others “to convince” is all-consuming. I, at the far end of the spectrum you have described, am content to think of myself as a woman now and then, and not seek any proof to support my claim. In my little fantasy world I AM a woman, perhaps, a sugary caprice made up in my boyish mind, but that’s different. I could never convince myself of something that I am not. Meanwhile, like the bowler in cricket, I have to ask the question...

So the question is "do we convince ourselves that we are women, or deduce that we are women? A great topic, and I hope it "convinces" many to "deduce" some thoughtful replies.

So far, so good...

I told one of my friends this morning that I was getting ready to write and submit a controversial thread OP, something I’ve been thinking about for a couple of weeks (it seems). I’m fascinated by this idea of convincing, since it links up many viewpoints that are prevalent on this site. It seems to me that if we deduce that we are women, the convincing would begin in earnest, but I’m mainly talking about transgendered individuals (individuals ALL), and not transsexuals per se...

The idea of “being anything you want to be” keeps coming up around here, much like the echo that bounces off of the canyon wall, and MtF crossdressing tests this premise to the limit. If you can literally be anything you wish to be, you could conceivably convince yourself that you’re a woman, and set about proving your “case,” not only to yourself but to others as well. If you come to live your life as a woman, turning away from your birth gender as a matter of course, I would say that you have definitely done some convincing along the way...

Someone might deduce that I’m a woman, if they saw me, and that would make me feel good, but I think that convincing oneself takes a lot more effort, borne on the stubborn wings of determination. This is about DECIDING to be a woman, and setting out to convince yourself – if you are TS, I assume you have no choice in the matter...

[PaulaQ]

If you come to live your life as a woman, turning away from your birth gender as a matter of course, I would say that you have definitely done some convincing along the way...

This is about DECIDING to be a woman, and setting out to convince yourself – if you are TS, I assume you have no choice in the matter...
[/COLOR]

How would you reasonably distinguish between these two cases for late transitioners? Or are you talking about girls who live 24/7, but never exactly transition in any way? (My sense is that a lot of these girls ultimately transition, despite protestations of "too old", "don't see the need", etc.)

Or are you talking about someone who CDs sometimes, to some extent, and has some type of fantasy that they are a woman, but in reality would never transition, and in fact such a process would be harmful to them?

I have to be honest, I don't see a lot of that. I see a lot of convincing going on around here about being men - e.g. "Check out my new double-D forms" in the pictures subforum, followed by "I'm a manly man, I love being a guy - I do GUY THINGS!" You can see plenty of this in this thread - with the protestations to the contrary of "I IS A MAN!!!" (Which is nice, but we weren't talking to you sweetie, this thread was for girls! teehee! )

Am I wrong to view this as any more self-convincing than what you are implying? I'll answer my own question - no, I am not wrong. The logic seems to be "I was born with a dingus, therefore, I must be a MAN", never mind such a person then posts in the "What color panties are you wearing" thread...

So it seems to me that much of the convincing going on here is from transgendered folks trying to convince themselves that they are male.

In the words of Tyler Durden "How's that working out for you?"

Edit: one last question for Frederique - if you presume that TS girls have no choice about their condition, what makes you think that CDs have any more choice? I see many posts here from people who can't quit. How do they have a choice about their gender issues? (Just trying to understand who you are talking too here!)

[Beverley Sims]

Standing up to pee does make it less convincing.
Very handy to be able to do that sometimes.

[Marleena]

Another thought provoking thread Freddy.

Yes some are trying to convince themselves they may be a woman and some actually are.

However I see others trying to convince us they're men, they're not gay, they're only CD, It's just the clothes, they are not transgender, and on and on...

If they keep harping on the same thing I wonder who they really are trying to convince us or themselves?

Oh..and for the record as Freddy Mercury said in a song "Nothing really matters to me'...

[docrobbysherry]

I've thot/think a lot about this subject, Freddie. Because of all the posts here discussing how the writer, "felt like a woman", or mention something about their, "female side". Because how would they know?

Since they've never been women, don't they REALLY mean, "I think I felt like a woman"? And, "I imagine those feelings/thots came from a feminine side of me"?

The only thing I know for sure, is what women look like. No idea what it feels like to be one. Of course, I've imagined that I was walking like a woman or dancing like a woman. Because I couldn't see myself, there was no visible proof to the contrary. But, while I LOOK like someone else dressed, (a woman). I've never "convinced myself" or imagined that I've ever had female thots or feelings.

Maybe some of us CD's just don't get the trans experience?

[ReineD]

So the question is "do we convince ourselves that we are women, or deduce that we are women?

I think both are true. Some people know they are TS (women) either early on or later, and they never waiver from this. The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.

Others know they are TS (woman), but manage to walk a fine line for the sake of family and kids.

While others say that they are women yet they are satisfied living in a man's body for part of the time, in other words their gender dysphoria is not great enough to stop living as a man ... if they do have gender dysphoria.

But I also think that some people get such a kick out of presenting as a woman that they eventually want to be a woman (depending on their personal circumstances), and they can easily convince themselves they can be women. Perhaps some of these people stay stuck there for years and years.

Some people know that they are gender non-conforming ... they live outside the gender binary.

Let's not forget all the different definitions of "a woman". Some people think that it means dressing like one. Others mistake the euphoric feelings they get when they dress, for "feeling like a woman". Still others think that being a woman is being beautiful, and if one cannot be beautiful then it's not worth it. While TSs know who they are, they do live on the female side of the gender boundary, and being a woman is not mostly about clothes, it's not mostly about feeling euphoric, and it's not mostly about feeling sexy, and it's not all about being beautiful.

There is not one answer that fits all and really, all of this can ONLY be self-assessed and self-reported. And only the self can do this, unless a person is in denial. And the denial can go both ways.

[PaulaQ]

The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.

Having BTDT, I can say that it can take quite a bit of deduction to figure out that you are suffering from gender dysphoria. I've found the process of understanding my gender to be this labyrinthine process, like something out of a Franz Kafka novel, but with fewer laughs.

[AmyGaleRT]

Frédérique, as I have mentioned before, I am convinced that, though I may not be outwardly female in flesh, a part of my soul is female. When I dress, I feel like I'm bringing my outward appearance into congruence with that part of myself, to let the "inner woman" dominate for awhile. But I never lose sight of the male part of my identity, either, which is what usually dominates.

Outwardly, this would appear no different from your concept of an alter ego self. The difference is that I feel both parts of myself to be always present, just that one or the other is dominant depending on how I'm dressed. (The "non-dominant" part of myself does have the sense of being "along for the ride" in those circumstances.)

There is no "battle" or "conflict" between the two parts of myself. I have come to view my Amy-self as a gift, one that allows me to experience life from a different perspective, and appreciate experiences ordinary cisgender males might not even comprehend!

- Amy