Have you CONVINCED yourself that you’re a woman?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Freddy, I'm just an average 70yr. old guy that loves dressing as a real lady, It's just who I am and it's what I do, And totally enjoy doing it.

[Ressie]

The mind will imagine things both good and bad, both real and fantasy. And the mind will begin to believe things that aren't true. I'm convinced that I'm a guy. There's plenty of evidence to support that notion. But pretending to be a female once in a while is also a part of me. Maybe someone else will someday convince me that I'm actually a woman, but no one's tried to yet.

[TheMissus]

I still find it personally puzzling why anyone would NEED to convince themselves they're a woman rather than just enjoy being a man who CD? Why must it be anything more than that? But then I read the comments here from some who insist ALL men who crossdress suffer a mild gender dysphoria and I realize why this situation might happen. Peer pressure! I feel like I'm back at high school reading such comments. Mind you, the 'what color are your panties' threads are worse, lol.

Anyway, I'd like to say to those who feel pressured to be something they're not - DON'T! Just be yourself, for crying out loud - you're grown men! And to those who insist everyone feels the same way they do or are suffering the same issues - you don't need anyone else to validate who you are or how you feel either. You just need to believe in yourself and not worry what anyone else is doing. A man who CD purely for fun is not lessening the validity of your dysphoria. They just happen to be different issues that look similar and that's okay. Difference is good, isn't it?!

Still an interesting thread, Frederique.

[Soriya]

I have not been able to convince myself I am 100% a woman and believe me I have tried. Half female yes but 100%, no. Every time I have asked myself this question I am always greeted with the follow up question of "Is it my male self I have never liked or do I associate all the negative experiences I have endured as male that drive me to feel that way since dressing brought me comfort through those times?"

[ReineD]

I still find it personally puzzling why anyone would NEED to convince themselves they're a woman rather than just enjoy being a man who CD?

Because the prospect of "becoming" or even "being" a woman is too much fun (for those who do need to convince themselves)? I think that many CDers feel a certain limitation with having male bodies. A lot of CDers would like to have the ability to flip a switch and temporarily grow boobs, shrink the waist, have natural padding on the butt, and drop 10 or 15 years from their faces, only to be able to return to guy mode the next day. While other CDers would want to be like this all the time simply because it is so enticing. It appears to me as if it's about how sexy and beautiful they can be, rather than just being a regular, average, female version of themselves that doesn't garner much more attention than the average GG their age.

Soriya, I think you nailed it.

[PaulaQ]

What's the score on this thread - did any of the MtF CD's actually admit to being convinced that they were women?

You either feel that you’re a woman, or you really should’ve been a woman, or you really WANT to be a woman, for whatever reason, so you set out to convince yourself of this fact, regardless of the cost, no matter what it takes...

To me, that is the essence of transgender, and I can now better understand why TG individuals are so defensive about things – it takes a lot of effort, this convincing, and nothing will deter the person from attaining a state where there are NO doubts.

Is this really the cornerstone of the transgender experience, as Freddy mentions? And if it is, why haven't more MtF CD's 'fessed up that they, through a process, convinced themselves of this. And what could that mysterious process be.

So have we convinced ourselves, instead, that NO real MtF crossdresser then truly convinces themselves that they are women? I mean, why would they?

So who are these mysterious TG people to whom Freddy poses his question? They are not transsexuals, for lo, in Freddy's own words:

I cry when the transsexuals lug their viewpoints over into the MtF section and transpose them over whatever is being discussed, as if only THEIR opinion matters, changing the course of a thread and ruining the proceedings. Just sayin’…

That was posted in a thread I started, about crying.

From MY point of view, transsexuals don’t know the first thing about being “just a crossdresser,” but that doesn’t stop them from commenting in this section, does it? Let me tell you something, since you brought it up: I don’t care what it’s like to be TS, OK? I can only attempt to discuss things that I DO know, and MtF crossdressing happens to be one of them. This thread is NOT about being TS, being on the road to TS, or thinking like a transsexual.

So I'm puzzled by several things here. An obvious example of a transgender person who is convinced they are a woman would be a transsexual. But Freddy doesn't want to talk to us. (Apparently, also, 3 weeks on HRT makes me, a member since February and I think a relatively friendly one, an invader to this forum.)

I'm also confused by why I wouldn't understand what it's like to be "just a crossdresser?" That seems absurd. I've been crossdressing longer than Freddy has been alive! What's not to understand? Sneaking around? The shame? The guilt? Desperately wanting to convince myself that I'm just a guy with an unusual predilection? Am I missing something?

But anyway, the question remains, who are these mysterious TG persons who have convinced themselves that they are women, but are not TS? We could ask the rather rude question have TS people convinced themselves that they are the opposite gender, but Freddy doesn't want to talk to them so we'll never really know if that was implied in her OP or not. Clearly, TS is a non-issue, and has no place in this highly philosophical thread! And that's fine, but then who are these mythical transgendered self-convinced crossdressing men who believe they are women? Are they rarely spotted, like bigfoot, or unicorns, or leprechauns? And do they have magical properties? We may never know! (I'm sorry, I threw that last question in on my own!)

Fortunately, thanks to threads like this one (THANKS FREDDY!!!!) we can be sure that we are mostly here just manly, manly men, manly men who wear stockings, and garters, and heels and skirts. Manly, macho, manly men who love doing guy stuff and who masturbate into our panties and then feel just awful about it. Manly men, convinced that as long as we grasp and tug upon that slender reed of hope, that we are not women. Thus fortified, we can now get about the business of crossdressing - at least until laundry day.

So what of the original questions and point of this thread? Who knows - and why do you care anyway - you don't care - you just feel better knowing - "aaaaah" and "ok, not me then." Enjoy!

In the aftermath, I will usually gain a few new friends, and a few more lucky souls will inhabit Freddy’s island of ignorance. Casualties are to be expected in discussions like this, if truth is your ultimate goal…

I'm absolutely speechless at the honesty in the statement above - breathtaking. Just breathtaking! Oh, and a smattering of mathematical logic for you to consider with respect to the statement above:

if A then B
only implies B is true if A is true.
If A is false, then B may be either true, or false. Take your pick.

I can fully believe that Frederique, who obviously has a sensitive and artistic soul, suffers greatly from some of the responses in threads like these. And so to her, I dedicate this song - a song that always makes me think of sensitive artistic souls, tortured by their inner need to find truth and to put an order to this outlandish chaos that we call reality.

Consider it an olive branch. Watch the video, and marvel at the genius, and then think back on Freddy!

[GroovyChristy]

Frederique, isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that transgender folks have to convince themselves they belong to the sex their bodies were not born as? Now, there may be crossdressers who try to convince themselves they are transgender in order to feel validated, to whom I would say, just be yourselves and don't worry about it, it's ok to be "just a crossdresser." But for the true transgender person, the word you are looking for is not "convince," but "realize," or "accept." Perhaps even "admit."

[ReineD]

But anyway, the question remains, who are these mysterious TG persons who have convinced themselves that they are women, but are not TS?

They won't come into this thread and admit this since they have convinced themselves they are women. They won't think this thread applies to them. But these are the people who have quite different definitions of what being TS is, compared to the TSs who do transition.

Their focus tends to be on things other than aligning the body with the mind. It tends to be on the clothes, the boobs, the looks, being beautiful, having sex with men, etc.

If you pay attention to the threads here, you'll begin to see a pattern.

[PaulaQ]

They won't come into this thread and admit this since they have convinced themselves they are women. They won't think this thread applies to them.

Well then if the non-TS but still TG people who are convinced they are women won't speak in this thread, and the TS people who are also TG (by definition) aren't welcome to discuss their feelings about gender, then who exactly is this thread talking to? To people who largely have no idea whatsoever about the matter at hand? (er, the matter of the [I]thread[I] at hand. There are other matters at hand they have a grasp on, I am sure.)

If this is merely someone's favorite fantasy for their "personal relaxation time", are they really then convinced they are women? That seems like a stretch to me.

Where does one draw the line between "fantasy" and "conviction". I know the TS girls sometimes say "transition!" but I disagree with that, mostly because there are TS girls who aren't able to transition for economic reasons. But anyway, we aren't talking about TS girls - Freddy was adamant about that, I will respect her wishes on the matter.

So who're we talking about? And if I meet such a one, how then should I greet them? "You're not really a woman", or "Welcome sister!" or what? (Doh! It can't be the last one, they'd be TS then, right? And we've excluded that outcome!) Will they be polite and tell me "I'm 100% sure I'm a woman, but I AM NOT A TRANSSEXUAL?" That'd help - I'd hate to make a mistake like I just did in the sentence above...

Frederique, isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that transgender folks have to convince themselves they belong to the sex their bodies were not born as?

Interestingly enough, Freddy is not a transgender person - she says this quite freely. (Should I say "he", this confuses me greatly and I'd hate to misgender someone. I'm sticking with the "if you present like a girl, I use feminine pronouns" rule, sorry if I offend anyone.) But she feels she's hit upon the cornerstone of transgender, and certainly feels free to comment on it.

However, TS girls like me clearly don't understand the plight of the average CD. Even those who CD'd for decades longer than Freddy has been alive. We should not comment upon, because we can't understand, the plight and feelings of the CD.

Because that's just fair.

[ReineD]

This is too confusing.

There are too many different definitions of "TS", "TG", "CD", "woman" in this forum to have any agreement on anything.

The point is though, there are those who think they are women, and there are those who are. This is to be expected in a community as varied as this one. With time and practice, you'll develop a sense of this too and you'll see it in the various posts here and there. It is rather nebulous though and I don't think that anyone can be as precise about it as you would like.

As to how you might greet them? In general terms like the rest of us and try to not be insulting. Even though you will have doubts about some people and only time will prove to what degree they will have followed through their claim that they are women, no one ever really knows for sure.

... except when you see people who are heavily involved in this forum, swear up and down they are women, and then they stop coming. They disappear into thin air, without having shared anything about any steps toward transition. This happens a lot here. The natural conclusion is that they've had second thoughts and it is easier to not come back than admit it.

[Princess Chantal]

I still find it personally puzzling why anyone would NEED to convince themselves they're a woman rather than just enjoy being a man who CD? Why must it be anything more than that? But then I read the comments here from some who insist ALL men who crossdress suffer a mild gender dysphoria and I realize why this situation might happen. Peer pressure!

For my crossdressing, it is nothing more than enjoying it to the fullest. No gender dysphoria here, no need to convince myself or others that I'm not a man. I am very comfortable with being looked as a man who enjoys crossdressing, something like a hobby to me.

[Michelle789]

This thread is getting extremely confusing. I have to come to one of these conclusions about Freddy.

1. Freddy is that "mysterious TG persons who have convinced themselves that they are women, but are not TS"
2. Freddy is a TS woman in denial, who is convinced herself that she is a man.
3. Freddy has a fantasy of being a woman, therefore convinces herself that she is a woman.
4. Freddy is the epitome of gender confused.
5. Freddy is a sociopath.
6. Freddy enjoys pushing people's buttons.
7. Freddy has way too much free time.
8. Freddy is a "just a writer", nothing more, nothing less.
9. Freddy is the mysterious third gender.
10. Freddy is other, please explain.

Freddy, which is it? You have to pick any one, or more, of the 10 options.

[PaulaQ]

The natural conclusion is that they've had second thoughts and it is easier to not come back than admit it.

Interesting. That wouldn't be my first natural conclusion. I'd conclude that they'd managed to shove the awful feelings back down into the box once again, pressured by society, their lives, their families, the circumstances that make transition so difficult. (Indeed, some have no real option to ever really go through the medical parts of transition.) That doesn't, to my mind, imply it wasn't real. Many who ultimately do transition try a time or two, fail, and then ultimately go through with it. Some, of course, never succeed for a variety of reasons.

Or perhaps you are talking about people who post "I'm going to go talk to a doc about starting HRT and breast augmentation tomorrow and see what he says!!!!" Not understanding the Kafkaesque process that is the legitimate medical process of transitioning. Someone not possessing a plane ticket to someplace that turns a blind eye to WPATH is going to have to eat their words, and I wouldn't think would post again, because reporting the doctor's response would be embarrassing. I have seen this once or twice - I'm not convinced this would be the majority though. (And how do we know they aren't really kind of sincere, but just really naïve?)

I mean, we live in a society that throws pain pills and Viagra around like candy. Why shouldn't there be a quick fix for gender concerns? (I mean, *I* know why there isn't, lol, but I can understand someone who doesn't know anything assuming that there could be. Or at least hoping for such a thing.)

I mean, deciding you want to be another gender, even for a time, is a pretty big mental step. I certainly had a hard time overcoming all the social conditioning I'd received against this. Indeed it wasn't until my psyche began to disintegrate, and tell me "yeah, ok, deal with this, or we're *ALL* going to die." that I began to take it seriously. Shit, I'm sorry, I'm talking TS stuff again. Sorry Freddy. I was trying to relate my difficulties with overcoming social imperatives and conditioning to those that might be faced by someone else, but since I'm TS, as it turns out, my feelings on any of this don't matter or are uninteresting to this discussion.

BTW, do you agree, Reine, that I probably have no actual insight on how someone might feel facing something like this within them? Freddy says I don't. Or that it's not relevant or interesting or something.

edit:

A simple way to be less confused by this topic!

I can appreciate those who are becoming confused by this thread, as we've analyzed the logic and structure of Freddy's query and the assertions placed upon it as axioms of logic. There are some who might, then conclude that since Freddy obviously isn't talking about anyone, that the entire content of this thread is:

nil - the empty set. It means nothing.

I reject this - I think Freddy's really on to something here, but then my personal motto is the following:

"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.

I can tell you I fully embrace this motto, and it helps me more deeply understand topics such as the one in which we are actively engaged.

[TheMissus]

... we can be sure that we are mostly here just manly, manly men, manly men who wear stockings, and garters, and heels and skirts. Manly, macho, manly men who love doing guy stuff and who masturbate into our panties and then feel just awful about it.

LOL!! I know I shouldn't laugh as this is a serious topic, but this had me choking on my
coffee.

Princess Chantal, thanks for sharing My H has no dysphoria either, but then he has a sexual CD 'hobby' and needs to be a man to enjoy it, so to speak. Funny how many different reasons a man can find to put on a dress, isn't it?

I guess that's the real crux of all this banter - who is a man and who isn't? Freddy, I assume from the postings here, is all man. Paula is a woman. I should tell the two of you now to quit arguing as you'll NEVER agree as the battle of the sexes has been waging forever, lol. Freddy, just admit you're wrong like all good men should and we can get on with our day.

Yep, I pulled out the female card - we get to be right at the end of all arguments

[Veronica27]

Why does an intelligent well-written post that poses an interesting, albeit somewhat ethereal question, always have to degenerate into insults and name calling. Given the context of the direction in which this discussion has been heading, the song that was linked above was extremely sarcastic and condescending. Let's discuss the questions asked or move on to the next thread. I am getting fed up with everybody attacking the writer instead of the writing.

Veronica

[Tamara Croft]

And I've just about had it with these threads turning into a bash for all. So with that said, thread closed.

If I see another thread posted like this just to start arguments, it's being deleted.