Going back

[arbon]

Sometimes you hear people that have decided to de-transition, even post-ops.

Usually it seems to have to do with them not being happy once they transitioned or it was not what they expected. Like it did not fix what really needed to be fixed within them.


It kind of gives me some pause, because I am sure that earlier in their transition they were just as sure it was the right thing to do, and driven to do it, like most all of us are. But they ended up being wrong? It was all a mistake?

Last night reading one of these de-transition stories made me ask myself if I have been wrong, have I somehow convinced myself of something that really was not the right thing to do? How do you really know? If I was wrong, could I be open to that and accept it?


The benefits of transitioning have been very real for me - I don't experience the intense depression, anxiety, and self loathing that seemed centered around my gender anywhere near like I used to. I still have plenty of issues, I'm not always happy happy joy joy I'm a girl now, life is still life. Its just that its a lot better then it was and I simply function better and feel okay with me now. And I have not even had any surgeries yet.

Looking at those positives I have experienced it seems transitioning was the right path for me to go down. So why wasn't it for these people that go back? Why didn't they experience positives from transitioning the way most (I hope) do?

[gonegirl]

I don't know the answer to those questions, T, but I sincerely hope that such a realization doesn't befall anyone. It's so horrible I can hardly bear to think about it.....

[I Am Paula]

I sometimes get those 3 a.m. WTF moments where I'm sure I have made a terrible mistake. These always resolve themselves by first light, but what causes us to suddenly doubt something we were so darn sure of before? I don't think I would/could ever go back, but, are those thoughts possibly harbingers of something to come? What if I discovered I wasn't TS at all, and I've been living some sub-conscious fantasy?
Frankly, my bigger fear (3 a.m. WTF moment 2.1) is that my Dr. will find some malady that forces me to quit HRT. I honestly don't know how I could deal with that.

[Kathryn Martin]

I read these stories and my reaction is that it is just another transvestite gone to seed. Two issues arise: the person should not have, under any circumstances transition in the first place and secondly the gatekeeping system failed them. For them this was obviously a fantasy gone wrong. All of those questions were resolved long before I transitioned. I would not have otherwise.

And I want to be clear, I place a lot of blame at the feet of the de-transitioner. He hurts all legitimate transsexuals transitioning.

[Angela Campbell]

I don't know. I have WTF moments, but only in that there is fear of situations that may arise as a result of transition. Like losing a job or family member. It never is a question of whether I want to transition or if it is right for me, hell I have wanted this since I was four! After that many years I know it is right, never for one day of that 50 years did I not want to be a girl.

That said, I have met some who either have transitioned, or are transitioning and my personal opinion is that they are not a woman inside at all. They seem happy enough though. I asked the same kind of questions of my therapist and we had long discussions on the subject. I wanted to make sure I was not fooling myself, and after a while he told me he had no doubts that I am a woman and that I am making good decisions. I am probably the one patient he was the most sure of in his practice. He was not telling me anything I didn't know but it helped me to be more confident that I was making decisions based on reality and not fantasy. I am pretty sure some do though


I think I would prefer death to going back. It would be about the same thing

[kimdl93]

If the benefits have been real, then I would submit that you made the right choice. I've observed that some people here may be looking for a panacea and mistakenly think they will find it in transition.

[arbon]

I sometimes get those 3 a.m. WTF moments where I'm sure I have made a terrible mistake.

I have had those to, days when it is really apparent what I have done and knowing how much I stand out as a tranny in this community - but those thoughts are always short lived when I remember what it was like before.

And there were times I had more serious doubts to, especially when I was dealing with all the fallout of having come out (family, job, money, friends). Things were hard for a while and I would question if it was all going to be worth it in the end. But I stayed the course and got through those things.

Which is what I don't get. If someone has gotten through all the real hard stuff and completely upended their life, how could they just turn and go back? What drove them to continue down that road, even to have surgery, if it was not right for them? I wonder how many were just driven by the hope they were going to feel the way they wanted to feel when they got around the next bend, but it just never came. That would suck.

[Angela Campbell]

I already feel like I want to feel from this, so far so good I guess.

[Badtranny]

Why didn't they experience positives from transitioning the way most (I hope) do?

There is only ONE positive change that transition brings;

Freedom.

If you're looking for anything else, then you're looking in the wrong place.

[ReineD]

Looking at those positives I have experienced it seems transitioning was the right path for me to go down. So why wasn't it for these people that go back? Why didn't they experience positives from transitioning the way most (I hope) do?

Because they aren't transsexual?

People who are gender variant would be just as unhappy living as a woman full time as they are living strictly as a man. Maybe they think that if they are unhappy living binary-male, then they would be happier being binary-female? But ultimately their best bet is to find a balance outside the gender binary, which is hugely challenging, since none of us have any models for this. We all just see males or females around us.

My SO accomplishes this by having very loose gender definitions for herself and by alternating gender expressions. S/he does not identify as a crossdresser.

[Kimberly Kael]

I read these stories and my reaction is that it is just another transvestite gone to seed.

[...]

And I want to be clear, I place a lot of blame at the feet of the de-transitioner. He hurts all legitimate transsexuals transitioning.

This all comes across as incredibly judgmental. Circumstances vary, and while I agree that there are clearly many cases where expectations weren't aligned and someone should have known better, I don't think "gone to seed" or "blame" are helpful phrases in assessing what went wrong. I understand there's frustration regarding society at large questioning our legitimacy more when someone de-transitions, but our beef should be with societal rules and misconceptions that have been the problem all along. We don't blame poor perception of the medical profession on people dropping out of med school. A pretty widely accepted test to see if you're transsexual is through Real Life Experience, which requires that you be diagnosed as transsexual. A bit of circular reasoning there that leads inevitably to this problem.

... and then there are other definition dances. Many have gone out of their way to make it clear that they won't accept that someone is TS without at least HRT, if not more. So what happens when someone turns out to have a medical condition that pretty much guarantees that long-term HRT will result in death? This happened recently to someone I know, and he wound up de-transitioning. I can't imagine taking that path, myself, as I'd rather put up with all the nay-sayers and continue to live as a woman regardless, but that's just me. His life obviously took another path. The world isn't black and white. There aren't many either/or situations but rather a whole lot of shades of gray.

If it were simple, the whole concept of trans identities wouldn't exist at all.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm not 100% sure here but I'd say that the questioning is a good indicator that you're approaching this, like any other major thing in life, with lots of thought and reflection.
Every now and then I'll read something that makes me take time out to pause and reflect alone at how I feel and where I'm going.

[KellyJameson]

Transitioning cannot be in any shape or form a male fantasy to be a woman. If it is driven by the desire to escape being a man whether because events have transpired to turn you against yourself from the hate you have absorbed from others or from failure as a man who "has identified as a man" or to replace a woman in your life with yourself you will have serious problems.

I have seen many transition who I still experience as men and nothing they do can hide this. It is very distinctive and very masculine and makes it impossible to relate to them as a woman.

There is a reason and it is called gender identity.

You must search your soul to know why you identify as a woman.

This identity should feel like a calling that whispers to you always telling you something is wrong even before you know what and when you discover what this calling and whispering has always been about you will feel like someone opened a valve inside your head releasing all this built up pressure.

You will know it as an epiphany like a switch was thrown in your head and you see everything clearly.

You will feel the truth of this discovery permeate every fiber of your body and no one will be able to stand in your way once you now this truth that has been kept from you.

You will live without doubt and the conviction that you are a woman will be experienced as "but of course" and you will reflect back over your life and see how life has always been trying to tell you this truth.

The freedom comes from living truthfully so if lies, self deception, vanity, narcisssium, autogynephilia or any other reason other than having been "made" into a woman so is the only natural and possible outcome of the ultimate expression of the self as "identity" than you will suffer after transitioning.

It is alot of work yet it also feels effortless because it is the natural expression of who you are versus the unnatural way you were living before.

The paradox of this truth is "to know it" you must "go into it and live it".

Once you transition you finally feel like you can breathe and relax into an experience that feels right.

[Badtranny]

Holy crap Kelly that was brilliant.

[sandra-leigh]

This all comes across as incredibly judgmental.

Kathryn has boundaries about what she considers "transsexual" to be, and although those boundaries are not as rigid as some of the members who have been absent for a time, her boundaries can be a bit sharp-edged. She tends to express those boundaries more often than others of the regulars, but it appears to me that some of the other regulars substantially agree with her but do not tend to write about the boundaries as clearly.

I would put the boundaries at different places than Kathryn would, and I would not be as sharp edged about the boundaries. Sometimes I think the boundaries are like driving cross-country and trying to pick the exact point at which you start being "close to home".

I wonder, for example, what is the key milestone in transition that, if one retreats to, one's detransition reflects a "failure" or reflects "having gone to seed"? If you are on HRT and have an SRS date, and you grow a Movember mustache, did you go to seed? If I'm 24/7, out to my employers, but legally change my name back to my male name, then did the gatekeepers fail to do their job properly, or am I dealing with an F*ing aggravating professional credentialing issue? How about if I have changed my legal name to Sandra but later change it to the more ambiguous Sandy? In doing so, would I be hurting "all legitimate transsexuals transitioning", or only (say) 68.27% of "legitimate transsexuals transitioning" ?

If I get into my RLE and discover 8 months in that I can't hack it and take steps back, then I should never "under any circumstances" have transitioned that far in the first place, and the system failed? Or did the system work properly by having put in that buffer time for people to drop out of before it is too late for them?

In an earlier thread I started, we discussed not being sure one is doing the right thing, and that at some point one needs to climb the mountain or jump off the cliff. That one must do and then deal. That one cannot know without jumping. And if the answer after jumping comes back that I wasn't quite ready yet, then was jumping a failure, or was it courageous? To face one's fear and go on, knowing that hurt likely lies ahead? To be at the top of the cliff and to be 100% sure about the jump is to be delusional enough to think one will be able to fly if the backup and reserve parachutes fail to deploy -- that or to be completely certain that being down and quadraplegic from a bad fall would be better than staying "up" any longer.

[Angela Campbell]

I have heard as all of us have about those who go back. I think it it relatively rare (in a condition that is already rare) but it is more publicized in an effort to give those who do not understand this or accept transsexuality at all a justification to be negative about it. Kind of like "see there"

Case in point is the reporter who publicly sensationalized HIS transition and then very quickly denounced it. This was not a transsexual at all but a publicity hound trying to enhance his career.

The truth is the gatekeepers are not always all that diligent, and sometimes too strict and both of these are not good, but it is human nature. The reality is no therapist can really diagnose you, you have to do it yourself (with guidance of course) and someone with a persistent fantasy and the right information could easily get past the gatekeepers. They do so at there own peril.

Then again who am I to say someone else is wrong and making the step when they should not? I never lived their life, I cannot feel what is inside of their head. I can barely understand what is inside of mine. But still I cannot fault someone who makes a bad decision because this is a terrible decision to make and it is made during a huge amount of distress, so it is natural that some have problems when doing this.

[LeaP]

Holy crap Kelly that was brilliant.

Yeah that.

[Angela Campbell]

This identity should feel like a calling that whispers to you always telling you something is wrong even before you know what and when you discover what this calling and whispering has always been about you will feel like someone opened a valve inside your head releasing all this built up pressure.

.

This especially. I have never seen it described so well.

[Sara Jessica]

I read these stories and my reaction is that it is just another transvestite gone to seed...

Very dismissive statement of something that is a very real phenomena in our community.

A dear friend of mine did this very thing and ultimately paid the price with her life. She happened to be a rather public figure as well and the tranny police were very quick to judge her as "just another transvestite gone to seed", using your expression.

I'm no shrink but I'm here to say that any such criticism was highly unfair (read: inaccurate) and it very well may have contributed to her demise. But at the end of the day, based upon her own words to me along with anecdotes shared by others, she died of a broken heart.

That said, would the same judgement be passed on the de-transitioner who perhaps found that the heat of being under the gender microscope day after day after day too intense? Is that person "just another transvestite gone to seed" because they simply became worn out with what society was dishing back to them?

It's so unfair to paint others with such a broad brush. The Muggles do it to us frequently. Kind of ironic that some feel the need to do it to each other as well. A little empathy goes a long way towards understanding of the human condition.

[Rachel Smith]

deleted by me

[Michelle.M]

If I get into my RLE and discover 8 months in that I can't hack it and take steps back, then I should never "under any circumstances" have transitioned that far in the first place, and the system failed?

No. There are so many variables in a transition, and "the system" is just one of them. And for what it's worth, it seems likely that the transition process in the US is much less like a "system" than it is in Canada. The benefit of a nationalized health system wherein GRS is paid for by the government requires something like a gatekeeping system to ensure public funds are being properly used.

In the US we have no such organized gatekeeping system, and the closest we come to a system of any sort is the voluntary use of WPATH standards by therapists and health care providers. For us, the care we obtain is somewhat of an a la carte affair. This is why transition in the US can be more challenging, and it also induces more variables into a transition.

Or did the system work properly by having put in that buffer time for people to drop out of before it is too late for them?

Yes! This is exactly why we do RLE. It's a chance to be certain that full transition is the right course of action. Dropping out of transition is not failure, it's self-discovery. It means the process has done exactly what it was meant to do.

Now, detransitioning after surgery? That should make us look very hard at the psychological profile of the person, which would probably be found to be far more complex than anyone realized. And FWIW, some of these people have made a life career out of concealing their real selves from therapists and they become fairly proficient at that.

Then what about the path the person took to transition? I always ask myself if the person worked with a therapist who followed WPATH standards or if the person attempted to transition using the ICATH approach. Informed consent is fine for some, but I think most of us could benefit from a little supervision as we make this most significant life change ever. We have no data to discuss, but I'd bet that most, if not all post-op detransitioners probably sidestepped or sabotaged their own therapy at every turn.

That said, would the same judgement be passed on the de-transitioner who perhaps found that the heat of being under the gender microscope day after day after day too intense? Is that person "just another transvestite gone to seed" because they simply became worn out with what society was dishing back to them?

Excellent point! And I should point out that my remarks refer to those who detransition and later go on to denounce the transgender community and therapists and physicians who provide care to those of us in transition. They frequently blame their failure to find peace on others, and this only denies their own issues.

We all know that the critical view of gender issues we face can be such a crushing burden to some. It never occurred to me that this could also come from within our own camp.

[bas1985]

In Italy some years ago we had a famous case of a church organist that publicly announced
her intention to be a female. You know the scandal, "he" was the lead organist in the Lecce cathedral.

I have the link, but it is in Italian... never mind.

well, of course he was fired on the spot... and later he announced her desire to de-transition and
to return to be the church organist.

Well, this was not so welcomed by the trans community I follow, he was considered like a crossdresser gone nuts or
something like that

[Angela Campbell]

It takes amazing strength to transition and not everyone will find they are strong enough or that the need is enough. The truth is the medical and psychological treatments are in their infancy because the medical community and society at large does not want to spend much time or money working on it and simply finds it easier to ignore it.

[Ariamythe]

Considering that the entire phenomenon of transgenderism is still not well understood by science and medicine -- not what causes it, not what triggers it, not how efficacious any given therapy or treatment it -- I think it's impossible to speculate as to why some women detransition and some don't. Certainly, we can say that "Transitioning was the wrong choice for them," but beyond that there's no clear answers. It's as individual as we are.

Or, heck, maybe transition *WAS* the right choice for them, but they went about it the wrong way. Or maybe they did it right, but lacked the kind of social and emotional support necessary to make it succeed. Or maybe they have some other underlying condition that triggered / interfered with / helped / hurt their transgenderism. We just don't know.

[Angela Campbell]

not just "the wrong choice" but maybe the wrong time as well?