for me "beyond reproach" varies from country to country, even from city to city.
For example "beyond reproach" in Palermo (for example) would be very different from a cultural more open Milan or Turin.
The "bar" is set by the context. Maybe one day a TS could go around in female clothes and a beard shadow and
no one will take a second look. Now it is impossible... but it is only a matter of presenting. Why should I
remove the beard shadow? To conform to gender...
Megan, you also raised an interesting point about depression. Mine has been life-long and serious. And now, between ADs and hormones, it's largely gone. I feel TERRIFIC! Lots of positive days, versus pain-free at best. Happy thoughts, versus relief from being left alone. Actual, engagement with people in conversation, versus presenting a false front and personality. So I understand your point here. But ...
You said you might question someone who did not manifest with depression. Accepting that, then what do you make of the disappearance of depression (or other issues)? If, as you said, there is no reason to treat flu further when it's cured, doesn't it follow that getting better indicates cure and no need for further treatment?
As it happens, this is a common circumstance and one that involves lots of renewed questioning and doubt! It's a regular source of OPs. An experience I went through in spades. But over time, even though depression has stayed away and other symptoms get ever dimmer, my identity and body image issues have sharpened. It didn't help, though, that there was a gap of a few months between when I started feeling good and the return of dysphoria - actual dysphoria - in it's pure form (for lack of a better characterization). Talk about WTF moments ...
I was counseled to address the depression and other issues turning my attention to gender. The reason, as it turns out, is that gender issues often disappear when such things as depression and other co-morbid issues are the root problem, because gender identity problems can be a symptom. When gender identity is the cause, however, the original problems resolve - being symptoms and not truly dysphoria, and the real dysphoria pops into focus.
At that point, you REALLY find yourself trapped. I don't feel bad and I don't expect to feel bad any longer. It's now not so much feeling seasick because I'm in a small boat in an angry ocean (as it was before). Instead, I find I woke up in a small boat in the middle of a desert. I've become a non-sequitur. Now THAT sucks in a completely different way, but at least I know exactly what the problem is and what will resolve it.
Last edited by LeaP; 10-25-2013 at 07:57 AM. Reason: clarity
Lea
Lea,
My comments are really only from looking through my lens. I refer to the depression being a symptom of a larger problem in that this is my perception of the beginnings of the transition process. Not that these emotions and issue do not continue the treatment should diminish the root cause to a mangeble level for the individual. I do know that this is not a common flu and will not be cured per SE, more that it is a lifelong condition that must be managed and planned for in order for it to be successful. This has been my continual issue With much of the DSM IV guide. The entire text is one big "if/then" statement. If the patient exhibits 3 of 6 common elements of X disorder then the common treatment is Y. When dealing with human dynamics such static recommendations are pigeon holding the person. Humans in any form or gender or combination are much more complex than this allows.
I worked in human services for a long time, and may yet still. I spent a lot of time dealing with what I called perceptual diagnosing. I know there is probably a better term, but basically therapists see the world through their own lens. Say for instance you start going to a fully transitioned therapist that has made this journey successfully for her. She will naturally see smilarities in her own process and sympathize with the patient. This would lend itself to a more favorable diagnosis leading to the patients own transition. I am not saying that any failure is due to the therapist, only that when seeking a therapist one should be aware that maybe this could exist. The same is true in more everyday medicine, if you go to an endocrinologist, they will likely find some sort of hormone imbalance, take the same issue to a ObGyn then it could be more likely PCOS in woman. I see it beng all a product of the lens we view the world through,
Megan
Why are we so focused on the acceptance of others? The intense desire and need for other people to give their approval usually makes it that much more difficult to achieve because of the vibe of desperation that is given off. If we are so incredibly desperate for the acceptance of others that we will even turn on other people like us and judge them as unworthy then what does that mean that we have lost from our soul to achieve a "successful" transition?
If you meet enough people you will eventually find people who don't accept transsexuality through no fault of your own. What do you do then?
If it were easy to be TS in our society maybe I would think about it differently, but the reality is that if you transition then you are adding challenges to your life. Some people have many more challenges than others. Who are we to judge?
Transition for yourself, not for anyone else. Reread Kelly's post again and she describes what it emotionally and cognitively feels like to grow into your real identity. Doubt is healthy, it means that you're aware of the potential challenges that might be faced and spending mental energy on navigating your path.
Last edited by mary something; 10-25-2013 at 08:25 AM.
"In our lives, change is unavoidable, loss is unavoidable. In the adaptability and ease with which we experience change, lies our happiness and freedom."
"My actual gender identity emerged as I healed from the scars of childhood not because of those scars" - Kelly J
Being a girl, but coming out of your mother to all the world as a guy is the TS condition...there is no crossdressing (Altho many of us thought of it that way for many years)...its not gender fluid, its not gender blended...there is no continuum for the ts.
btw...this may be my own dogma...but lets get real...for those of us that ARE women...there must be something to name us... true transsexual is the wrong message...its simply transsexual...you have cancer or you don't...you can have "Pre cancer"...
You may or may "know" from your earliest memory, you may or may not have a screwed up sexuality where your gender issue comes with lots of hard ons when you allow yourself female expression, you may or may not be gay or straight...on and on and on...
Unfortunately for us, its a consuming and deeply existential (And invisible to others!!) problem..its so personal and important we fight and talk past each other..
Kathryn I"ve said this before...i'm sorry but you have a blind spot and it is your personalization of your condition and your personalization of how and what you did about it..followed by your projection of that...your advice, your compassion, your deeply ingrained honesty and integrity are there for all to see, but its clouded ...
some of us that have transitioned simply do not share your obsessive focus on body parts , which is part of how you personalize your transition, take some of the info that's out there and then create this dogma around what a transsexual is and isn't..
This dogma you express means that your very positive and constructive messages get lost as people get frustrated with things you are saying which they KNOW are wrong...they know (and I know) because they lived it.. they lived it differently than you..
I experienced a totally different successful transition than you... ithought of myself differently, I lived differently, I planned differently, I prioritized differently..
the only thing I did the same was I single mindedly never looked back because I knew what I had to do... I meticulously planned it, I executed, I dodged many pitfalls and I came out alive and thriving.. and yet even today the idea of having a corrected birth defect seems strange to me...I just never ever thought of it or experienced it that way...
I realize there are studies and stats that try to generalize our condition, and explain it...those studies leave me cold... they harmed me... reading about crazy stuff like AGP made me doubt myself...it caused a shame I didn't understand...that shame caused confusion and depression...its complicated..
I got through it..i got through it because of lots of the things you said... as my situation became apparent, I started to think differently, act differently, and like you I became a juggernaut..
head down, forward march...that IS the way to do it..
Consequences to ALL actions are influenced by many factors...in business we say "everything matters"... sometimes in our transitions the luck of the draw and circumstances beyond our control hammer away at us... sometimes in our transitions, we experience moments of weakness that cause us to make poor decisions in our agony...sometimes in our transitions, events conspire to LITERALLY make transition in the current timeframe impossible
...sometimes there is too much fear confusion depression and shame to get yourself to a point where transition is in your best interest....the dogma of transition fails these people utterly...
frankly these people are beyond my(our) help ..they need an epiphany, a great therapist and some luck to beat the other stuff before they can confront the difficulties of transition
That being said,
I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that de transition..(after truly transitioning). I wish no ill to them, but I can only look at that and say they screwed up their own lives...its on them
if it was luck or unfair things that caused their de transition, I believe they should have thought about the risks beforehand and either dealt with them, or steeled themselves for a worst case scenario...its so totally awful and unfair..but it is what it is...
I don't have sympathy for people that try RLE and its not for them.. I feel JOY for them...their quality of life will be much improved without the destructive nature of transition..i totally admire their willingness to try something to make their lives better... it is flat out wrong to say that hurts us as transsexuals...they get to live their lives just like us..
As far as transsexuals that give up (As opposed to realizing they are not women, they just give up transition after starting it)
I feel mixed...I don't relate to this at all..transition is all or nothing..this is a failure of execution...you can't possibly plan for every outcome but if you are not ready to be the juggernaut you are a fool to press the button...
if you choose a blended lifestyle, more power to you... who am I to try to define who you are...but I would ask that you give me the same respect...i am transsexual...you are different than me...who are you to say otherwise??
I can predict or guess that you are not transsexual if that life works for you...or I can speculate there is good chance its all going to fall apart for you IF you are transsexuals...
In all these cases I don't see how they harm us much...yes the Charles Kane's of the world are negative role models that trulyupset me because he is a false flag...he blames his stupidity on the gatekeepers...its patently obvious to anyone with half a brain that he is a narcissistic idiot that screwed up his own life..
that's my $4.22
and Kelly J...great post...there are lots of great comments and I respect everyone's opinions and thoughts.. even when I disagree...
I agree, Megan. I view the DSM along the same lines. It does not define transsexualism. It's a point of view on a limited set of symptom manifestations in a subset of the trans population. There is more real knowledge about the condition in the little fingers of half the girls here than all the non-trans researchers and therapists on the planet. Therapists play an important role - so does the DSM - but defining me isn't one of them!
Lea
I've been following this thread, wondering when, and if, to weigh in.
Concerning the original post- We all have had failures in life, some of which have caused us to back track. This does not condemn us for life. Some succeed, some find it is not for them .Witness the huge amount of exercise equipment stashed under beds world wide. I feel for the women (few as I believe there are) who have gone all the way to SRS, and then turned back. They are not doomed, they made a mistake.
The thread has evolved, and the subject now seems to be failure as a trans woman, and therefore failure as a woman in general, as a result of inferior genetics, or just plain not trying hard enough. Bullshit! I'm on the fringe of OK genetics. Six feet tall (Not ridiculous), born, and stayed darn near body hairless (HRT did the rest, don't need to shave my chest anymore), and I'm reasonable enough of face that I'm not considering FFS. Boobs are being installed next spring. My voice is passable. (I get ma'amed on the phone most times). My actions, mannerisms, and vibe spell female, and always have.(got beat up in school a lot for being a pansy)
I will NEVER look like a movie star. Starting transition at 55, I will always have that look of a 55 year old tranny. Yet, despite the naysayers of this thread, I have socially transitioned, gotten employment, have a huge group of cis-friends, and the respect of my peers.
What part of womanhood am I the failure at?
I would love to look like Charlize Theron. Very few of us will. Can I walk down Main St. and interact with the butcher, the baker, etc? Damn right I can, and they will all use the proper pronouns, and think to themselves 'There goes a lady'.
Given that at least two people in this thread had already posted about people they knew personally who de-transitioned? And that we all know people who might face that choice somewhere down the road? Really? This is the kind of arrogance that rubs me exactly the wrong way. I appreciate hearing about your personal experience even when it differs from my own, but absolutist assertions call out to be challenged.Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin
~ Kimberly
“To escape criticism do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." - Elbert Hubbard
I just wonder....what does the fox say?....
I stopped out for a while, dumb idea, but necessary at that time and place.
I'm currently working with a new therapist about the fear level in "midstream",
None at all. Moreover, *I* would put your presentation as "beyond reproach" as I don't think that means what you are suggesting anyway.
I'm having a hard time sorting out tone from substance in this thread. Because as far as I can tell, you and serval others are approaching transition in the manner Kathryn describes, at least at it relates to determination.
No judgements, though ... really? First, who doesn't judge? Why isn't it reasonable to pre-judge according to your framework of understanding anyway? That's how we survive in this world and wrestle for understanding - by staking positions and opinions and bashing them against experience. I don't know ANYONE who is so non-judgemental that they don't have biases, form preliminary opinions, entertain suspicions, etc.
It's also interesting to observe how judgement plays out in real-world cases. No-one seems to have any problem tossing Charles Kane under the bus. And I recall Chelsea Manning taking a royal beating here for BEING trans, never mind detransitioning. That's different, you say? I don't think so!
Something like a public transition and detransition might not condemn you for life, but it's appalling extreme. I would venture to say that most would have serious, lingering issues for life, at least in some quarters. And that's about as close to dead certain for a post-OP who detransitions as you can get. I'll concede the .000001%.
Lea
I throw our dear friend Charles under the bus because of what he did afterwards...I feel bad that he thought something so destructive as transition was his answer..
he is the face of pink fog gone wrong...not the face of detransition...
Plus he is a creepy and self promoting loser. It was disgusting to see his trophy girlfriend follow him around on the 20/20 show that featured his blathering about how his screw up was everybody elses fault when in fact he is just the epitome of a fool..he is not a transsexual and yet he relishes presenting himself as one who was wronged by the system
I am a big fan of personal responsibility ... I wish him no ill will EXCEPT for the carve out that he should not be allowed to spew his garbage without getting hit by that bus..
As for knowing others... like sara J I know people too... 2 detransitions...2 FAILED detransitions and 2 suicide attempts... both de transitions were driven by outside factors from family issues and strangely enough perceived slights in the workplace as the burden of simply being a woman in their old job was too much..
... they lost their will after the dysphoria was cured and when their kids or wives pushed them away...they thought de transition was the answer... in hindsight both of them tell me that they look back on their detransition "phases" as ill conceived attempts to claw back things they felt they lost..both experienced gender dysphoria roaring back into their lives and both took pills!!! its bizarre how closely their stories match!!!!!!!!
they should have prepared for outcomes better...this is exactly why we all say be prepared to lose EVERYTHING
frankly it won't likely happen...but if you are not ready this is what happens.. this is not judgment its reality
+++++
Reading arbon's original post I would like to say to her that I sometimes have "WTF have I done" moments... I have had what I will call "wonderings" (as opposed to doubts) about what I have done...
I was coached in therapy to write down my feelings...write down what I was thinking as I started transition...that's because when the GD feelings are gone..transition can seem like it was unnecessary or other bad thoughts creep in...
I did write and reading those notes (I just did) is a scary and incredibly sad thing...it was sooooo bad.... sometimes it may help some of us to remember that at its base level we are simply fixing a big problem by transitioning...and that even low quality of life post transition is better than no quality of life prior to it...
I think you quite misunderstood what I meant with this. I am 6'2" and I do not have a particularly girly voice. There are some things we cannot change about ourselves. Again, society sets the standard for a presentation beyond reproach. For women with a transsexual history these judgements are amplified significantly by the fact that we begin with a persuasiveness deficit. Transition is hard enough, why expose yourself to the kind of reproach that attracts criticism. You work in a service industry like I. You need to present in an attractive manner to both recruit and maintain your clientele. As I said I am 6'2" and my voice is lower than I would ideally like. Add to that being badly dressed, a bad haircut, a sloppy appearance etc. and your clients will wonder if your judgement is impaired.
I keep repeating that passing is not another form of hiding. If you are a woman with a transsexual history, and you are as out as I am, and you want to live a life of dignity and purpose, then distracting from who you really are but doing everything half way, throwing up your hands and saying it will do is a form of self defeat. I have a friend in a very public position who told me once that he doesn't understand many TS women. He said if you want to be a woman be a goddamn woman. You are a gender outlaw and so be a goddamn gender outlaw already but do it in a way that brings you the acceptance that you need, that we all need.
It's easy to mount the barricades of "I don't care what people think, I am going to do it anyway" and in doing so add just another sh*t load of burden and trouble onto your already slightly over burdened shoulders. I could not be out more, by the way.
Kaitelyn:
I am fully aware of what you are talking about. I know that my views come across as somewhat inflexible.This dogma you express means that your very positive and constructive messages get lost as people get frustrated with things you are saying which they KNOW are wrong...they know (and I know) because they lived it.. they lived it differently than you..
I experienced a totally different successful transition than you... i thought of myself differently, I lived differently, I planned differently, I prioritized differently..
Yet, with your different experience, your different life both before and after transition, your different planning and your different priorities you have come out the other end and clearly with great success. What success is depends on the life we lead. Yet we have commonalities in beginning and end points, in the way we are assessed, in the way we are judged to be successful by those around us and in the who we are once we come out the other end.
Last edited by Kathryn Martin; 10-25-2013 at 11:25 AM. Reason: Additions to respond to Kaitelyn
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
I am HOPING the mods will NOT lock this thread because I would like comment on a few things later tonight. I don't have time to read back through it all and write a semi intelligent post right now.
Don't get me wrong, Kaitlyn - I have no problem whatsoever throwing Kane under the bus! I was questioning the posture of condemning someone for their (apparent) absolutist posture, claiming the mantle of non-judgement and compassion, and being just as (apparently) absolutist and judgemental in other contexts. (And before anyone asks, I'm not naming names. Judge your own self ... if you can.) The "apparently" qualifier is really another way of saying that people are responding more to tone than substance, IMO.
How do I know in this case? Because if I really screw up, I fully expect you and Kathryn would be among the first to reach out.
Lea
I have learned more from listening to those I do not agree with than those I do.
This is a rather good thread and I do look forward to what Arbon has to say when she can.
Last edited by Angela Campbell; 10-25-2013 at 01:45 PM.
All I ever wanted was to be a girl. Is that really asking too much?
Someone said it was okay to turn back during RLE but not when you have transitioned. At which point have you transitioned? SRS or some point before then? Do you get a certificate?
I am nine months into RLE but I do not feel I have transitioned or anywhere close. How long do I have left to turn back without condemnation? I would hate to miss the cut off date. Today I am a brave soul trying something new. Tomorrow I am undermining all real transsexuals.
Cutthroat thing in my life: Gauss Mathematics Contest. Golly did I feel thick when I couldn't finish answering even one question!
Seriously dispiriting thing in my life: Walking down the street any age between 14 and 40, minding my own business, short hair, beard even, dressed like all the other guys, when a fully adult driver drives past, tire-spins-reverses to come near me, yells a homophobic slur, and drives off again.just happened?
Seriously lonely thing in my life: I've had one 'date', total. It was at age... 34, I think. We took an immediate dislike to each other when we met in person. My two long term relationships were literally not from North America at all.
"Yah, whatever" thing in my life: a pair of 19-ish year old women giggled after I walked passed them last week; I was in an "office professional" suit-dress. 20 minutes later, a complete stranger, a fully-adult woman, exclaimed to me that she really liked my outfit.
"Just feels right" thing in my life: Outside the house, everyone I see even semi-regularly calls me Sandra. Except my pharmacist, a dear older and formally polite gentleman whom I haven't mentioned the name to yet.
Life giving me the Tranny Letter part of my life: the men who see me, "read me" in a flash, and behave towards me exactly like they do to the other women, complete with that same warm "Thank You, God, for lovely women!" smile.
If this is how the world is "cutthroat" towards visible transsexuals, then I would make all the legal changes without hesitation. Because I've been treating it as something much harder than the Gauss contest.
Emma: LOL!
Got me, Emma. What are your intentions?
If they are SRS – as I assume, since you put this in the context of real life experience – turning back will have saved you something quite important. More important, in fact, than the loss of credibility. The expiration on that runs out as the anesthesia kicks in. There is no maximum time for RLE. There is only a minimum. Take as long as you need.
If your real life experience is practice for something else, I would say you've already made quite a statement.
Lea
I intend to have SRS and have no intention of turning back. I am just a little bemused by the drawing of lines. I have sympathy for most people who turn back or detransition. People like Charles Kane being the exception.
Really? I couldn't tell.
Re: C. Kane - So it's not the line that bemuses you, it's where it is drawn?
Lea
Interestingly enough what you describe is the the biggest gate keeping issue especially with late transitioners. I do not believe that gender dysphoria is in fact an actual diagnosis. It describes secondary symptom and what the DSM 5 does is create a diagnosis from symptoms as Megan sets out in her comment. Add to that the "observers" view point, such as having transitioned, needing trans people to make a practice off it etc. and you actually have a pretty hot mess.
If you take the purpose of gate keeping to ensure that in fact transsexualism is the actual cause of the secondary depression (which is situational), which is why early pioneers like Benjamin send people to psychiatrists (and which has now become a standard of care) then the result is that transsexualism can be diagnosed from patient narrative and the exclusion of Axis 1 and 2 issues. The real issue is what is a transsexual narrative and what is not.
This is where the phenomenon of de-transitioning has it's root in my view. And it is both the patient and the therapist at whose feet this has to be laid.
Finding yourself in a small boat in a desert is a fabulous expression by the way. But without that WTF moment you would never have really known......
Last edited by Kathryn Martin; 10-25-2013 at 05:34 PM.
"Never forget the many ways there are to be human" (The Transsexual Taboo)
Isn't it something that Kane always comes up on these types of threads? It hardly seems that denouncing him is the same as being overly judgemental. He bought himself a sex change, then he bought himself another one when the first didn't work out. Now he is actively trying to make it more difficult for TS people to receive treatment based upon his own experiences... he was expecting the sex to be better he said at one point.
Big difference between denouncing that and saying he doesn't speak for me, he is nothing like me, and judging some poor soul who but for the grace of God...
As if transition would be any easier if no one had ever detransitioned.
"In our lives, change is unavoidable, loss is unavoidable. In the adaptability and ease with which we experience change, lies our happiness and freedom."
"My actual gender identity emerged as I healed from the scars of childhood not because of those scars" - Kelly J
Hurry up Arbon! I'm sure your post will be fine.
Mine on the other hand well not so much.I'm better off reading and listening instead. I'm off to a PC Tech forum before I get too depressed here.
Kane was a fetishist or a crossdresser or both. He bypassed the gatekeeping system just as a lot here advocate. Then he bought his SRSes and went on the attack, just as you say.
So right up to the point when he went on the attack, he was really no different than the deluded "transvestite" of the earlier thread response, convinced of his course for all the wrong reasons. Yet the plea is sympathy and understanding for them.
I think Kane is a pretty good example of what happens when people bypass care standards and when non-TS people transition. They screw up their own lives and sometimes they screw with yours and mine when they hit the news. He is exactly the same as anyone else who should not transition and buys his way. That includes a working class CD who's scrimps and saves to do the same thing. The difference? Kane has a lot more money. Both essentially make the SAME colossal mistake. Think his blaming others distinguishes him? Not so. Lots of people are prepared to blame others for their mistakes.
Last edited by LeaP; 10-25-2013 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Spelling
Lea
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