Support group Policy - Are You Aware Your Local Group Will Out You?

[Beth-Lock]

Some face-to-face groups of CD's and transgendered including those groups which also allow TS members in addition to their core of CD's seem to have a policy orientation tolerant of or prone to accidental outing of members, a sort of underlying thinking that is not always obvious, and definitely not advertised up front. It may not be obvious at first that preventing partial outing of members is a low priority to be careful to avoid, but more worrisome is the way a group's methods and philosophy is to some degree, inclusive of and having a positive opinion towards encouraging members to out themselves, and such public outing of members may be implicit in the way they operate. Some members will naturally be more extroverted than others, and want to be out there Others not so much, and some introverts horrified at the prospect.

One thing that can be a clue, is that the group's websites post photos on the Internet, either open to viewing by the general public or to members easily admitted without virtually any screening. It is not obvious if these photos are only taken at club events of those who are willing to be in them, and a certain number of members are carefully excluded from them. How effective this is, is another thing. Computer experts and commentators on modern technology and society often say, privacy no longer exists in today's world.

Then there is the way some Internet sites are open to anyone who can Google your image, even if it is not associated with a name, (though that happens too), and connect you to membership in a CD group. Sometimes even Googling your name can out you, due to a subtle software glitch that nobody may notice or complain about for some time, if ever.

The feelings on being outed of some members in deep stealth can run so high, that law suits for outing them are threatened seriously, of other members. Another problem is someone who simply outs you, partially, at another public affair than a CD support group meeting, or makes you very uneasy about that inevitably following if you continue going there. Many, carried away with their enthusiasm for their membership in a group, may not preserve any social borders, and talk to you about CD matters in public, making you at the very least, uncomfortable.

What has your experience of local support groups been? Would you advise anyone in deep stealth joining a local support group at all?

[Beverley Sims]

I think a support group needs careful consideration when joining.
I know if I joined a group in a small town I would be out in five minutes.
I know a number of the people who attend and I would not want to meet them at a group meeting.
Social media is totally out for me.

[sometimes_miss]

This is one of the reasons I will not even go to a local support group. There are a lot of people who believe that we should all be 'out' in order to further the cause of forcing society to accept that we are part of it; and in their minds, they're doing it for our own good. But while in the long view that may be true, not all of us want to be martyrs to the cause, sacrificing out own lives for the better future of other's. In other words, I gave at the office. I gladly preach tolerance for all gender varieties, not just our own. And while I appear to the general public as an average straight person, I believe that makes it even more important that other average straight people will follow my lead. After all, it's easy to figure out that a person of a minority group has an agenda when they try to get you to accept them; but when it appears that someone has nothing to gain by supporting that minority group the he is not a part of, it has even more of an impact. Feel free to disagree, but that's how it works.

[Marika01]

Isn't this what Stonewall did some years back - outed people "for their own good" and for the good of all gays? If someone wishes to remain in the closet, that is their business and no one else's. So, yeah, I note the warning. If I come out, it will be at a time of my choosing and on my terms, ta very much.

[Chrissy52]

A support group is like telling your hairdresser then. All the girls know!

[Cheryl T]

I've been a Tri-Ess member for about 10 years and it did wonders for my confidence and feelings of self-worth. We do not "out" anyone. We do have members who go out regularly (myself included) and we do have activities which are in public (dinner, movies, etc). We don't coerce anyone to go, it's there if you want it.


As for recommendation...absolutely! Of course it's up to the individual to examine the group they join. We went to one group at first and just didn't fit in, then joined another and it's been a perfect fit.

[Tracii G]

I would ask the potential group what their policy is regarding pics.Simple as that.
I'm not scared in any sense, my pics have surfaced here and there and nobody has said anything.I wouldn't care either way.
If you have a friend that saw your femme pics ask them "why do you cruise TG/CD sites are you a CD too?"

[AllieSF]

This is one of the reasons I will not even go to a local support group. There are a lot of people who believe that we should all be 'out' in order to further the cause of forcing society to accept that we are part of it; and in their minds, they're doing it for our own good. But while in the long view that may be true, not all of us want to be martyrs to the cause, sacrificing out own lives for the better future of other's. In other words, I gave at the office. I gladly preach tolerance for all gender varieties, not just our own. And while I appear to the general public as an average straight person, I believe that makes it even more important that other average straight people will follow my lead. After all, it's easy to figure out that a person of a minority group has an agenda when they try to get you to accept them; but when it appears that someone has nothing to gain by supporting that minority group the he is not a part of, it has even more of an impact. Feel free to disagree, but that's how it works.

I have been to a few local "T" friendly support group events. At one, no one ever took pictures, so picture outing was not an issue. At another, they used to have you check a box on the sign up sheet when you entered the event to get your name tag. That box was to advise the organizers whether you wanted your picture to be included with those posted on their members only site. At the beginning of my public outings I was more concerned about being accidentally outed in any way. Over time and with more personal confidence in who I am and about what I do, I am quickly approaching that "I don't give a flying F**K" attitude. The trip getting there is so very liberating for me making what I do in this side of my life so much more enjoyable and worry free. As for someone being accidentally verbally outed, that could happen to anyone anytime. How many times have we been told a secret that we promised to keep secret, or knew that we should not share and then accidentally somehow let that cat out of the bag? It happens all the time.

You do bring up a good point about being careful to keep our secrets secret. If one is terrified about taking any risk that may out them, then my recommendation would be to take every precaution to make that happen. That could include asking the support group about their privacy policies and what actions they take to make them work successfully. As has been said here many times, post a picture on the internet and take the risks associated with that. I have seen pictures from 2 members of this site on Craigslist. One was just a couple of months ago in the Clothing sale area. The other turned up in a dating area. So, even this site is not very secure in that area.

Regarding your comment, sometimes_miss, that there are a "lot" of people who believe that we should all be out, I will give you my view on that. First, I have not met anyone at the groups I have been to that state that we "should or must" cast all fears away and just do it, nor have I talked to anyone else who professes that. So, I agree that some may, but not the majority nor close to the majority. I personally believe that it would be much better for all of us if more of us were out and about, just being out there in the real world interfacing with others, not out there not waving flags, and confronting the general public demanding out rights. I believe that will do more for our cause over the long run as the general public starts to learn that we are just your neighbor next door with a different hobby so to speak. In the same breath I will say that one should only go out when they are ready and no one should be coerced to step out of that door, no one. So, it is more than OK to be safely in the closet.

I disagree that by encouraging people to go out that we are trying to "force" society to accept us as a member. I think that the activists want to force society to "recognize" that we are valid members who deserve and "should" have the same rights and respect as human beings as anyone else gets. In culture changing movements, some people are always out there in front making waves, waving banners and confronting those that want to maintain the old exclusionary status quo. They are sometimes martyrs for the cause and definitely needed for things to start changing. They are definitely needed. Their proactive approach really does help many of us in the background firm up our own beliefs and offer our support when and how we can. Behind those activists are many levels of supporters in much greater numbers all the way down to the "great silent majority" who never openly participate nor voice their opinions and view points publicly, but who do vote for and support the cause when they can. The cause being to let us live our lives with no negative connotations nor asterisks associated with who we are.

[Barbra P]

I joined a local San Diego Transgender Group called Neutral Corner. The group caters to both crossdressers and transsexuals; the President of the group is a transsexual but most of the members are crossdressers. The Neutral Corner website contains no photos and the only personal information displayed are the names of the Board of Directors and a few of the Officers – first names only. While the time and date of the next meeting is displayed on the Website the location is not. To find out the location you must send an Email to the Group and a brief meeting will be setup with one of the Board members.

When I belonged the meetings were held in a private meeting room within a Coco’s restaurant. I suppose there was some chance that a member could be “outed” as it was necessary to walk through the restaurant in order to reach the private room. Coco’s closed that location and the meetings are now held at a different restaurant, one where members do not have to walk through the restaurant in order to get to the private meeting room.

[cyndi13]

I think the group in Toronto is very careful of pictures... I have not joined it yet, though am considering. I will keep this in mind though, thanks for the heads up

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have been involved with so many trans groups over the years I can barely remember them all, and not a single one ever intentionally outed anyone!

I will say that, compared to say 15 years ago, concern for others' confidentiality has become more lax, maybe in part due to those in leadership being more out and visible? Really, it isn't a bad point to bring up, in our community confidentiality is still very important for most, and it needs to be respected not just by leadership but by all of those who attend as well. However, to this day I don't know of any group who's official policy is to out people.

[sandra-leigh]

In the Winnipeg group, the policy is that photos are only published with permission.

For most of the members, the only reason I know their male names is that as treasurer, I have to be able to write cheques to them if they purchase something on behalf of the club (and I only know the names I need to know, unless the person has told me otherwise.)

The risk of identifying people by searching on a single photo are, in my opinion, over-estimated. I have never been able to do it with my own photos. Once I was able to find a picture of myself in male mode by searching google with my legal name and continuing to look at more and more and more pages. There wasn't anything to link that photo to me with any greater certainty than the many many other false hits.

[Diversity]

Thank you for sharing this advice. It has made me aware and given me something to consider should I ever to decide to join such a group. I had thought all discretion was used to protect the members. Guess I should be more vigilant.Much appreciated,
Di

[Asche]

Isn't this what Stonewall did some years back - outed people "for their own good" and for the good of all gays?

I think you're confused.

I have never heard of any group called "Stonewall." "Stonewall Inn" is the name of a somewhat sleazy bar in Greenwich Village which attained notoriety in 1969 when the gays, drag queens, etc., who hung out in the area rioted in response to one police razzia too many. This riot (and not the bar) is credited with sparking the current gay liberation movement.

I know of no pro-LGBT organization that outs closeted LGBT people "for their own good." There are some gay organizations which out:

• public figures, who are also
• closeted gays, who also
• blatantly advance homophobia.

on the grounds that being outed is poetic justice for their homophobia and hypocrisy. I'd offer Sen. Larry Craig as an example, except that he outed himself.

I would agree that outing CDers who would prefer to remain in the closet (for whatever reason) is a really awful thing to do to someone. (I don't myself know about what CDing groups do because I can't see myself wanting to get involved with one.)

FWIW, there are reasons unrelated to CDing where people might reasonably not want pictures of themselves put out in public. It is a good general rule not to ever post or publicize pictures of anyone (other than perhaps a public figure being public) without their express permission.

[Angela Campbell]

I am a member of two groups and see nothing at all to point to anything like this. In fact they do not know anyone elses real name, and pictures are never posted anywhere for any reason. There may be some who are less private but in the ones I am familiar with there is no evidence of this at all. Yes it is safe. Safer than here.

[Kate Simmons]

Not the main reason but one reason I left my support group many years ago and went out on my own and developed myself. In all honestly they moved too slow for me and it was like pulling teeth to get any get togethers organized whether one on one or with the group. I found out I work better alone anyway as then I don't feel obligated to fulfill anyone else's agendas. It's more about enjoying myself rather than trying to prove anything.

[Eryn]

Every group is different. One group I belong to is very strict about privacy. Only selected officers know male identities, every prospective member is interviewed by phone and in person to make sure that they are compatible with the group, and no photography of other members is allowed. Some might call these precautions paranoid but this group has been in existence for over 40 years.

OTOH, anyone who goes out is eventually going to end up on the web. Even with this "strict secrecy" group we've had strangers (usually teens or twentysomethings) taking pictures of us with their cellphone cameras. Not much can be done about that if we want to sit in the same restaurant with mundanes.

In my case I think that it would take NSA-grade facial recognition software to match Eryn, with long blonde hair, femme glasses, and makeup, to my male self. If the connection is made, what are they going to do with it? If they try to blackmail me my response is "go ahead and tell!" If they were to carry out that threat, chances are they wouldn't be believed. Even if they were I'm protected by law in my employment and I have more TG friends than I have male mode friends.

Yes, I'd just as well keep my femme self secret among my male friends and in my workplace. I'm am, however, willing to take on limited risk in order to live my life the way I desire. I let fear rule my life for far too long.

[AmyGaleRT]

The Meetup meeting I organize does have rules about outing people. Meeting at the Gender Identity Center, we follow the GIC's rules (affectionately referred to as "The Riot Act"), which include a whole bunch of confidentiality rules, as well as a rule allowing everyone to maintain the privacy of personal information. We also operate within a members-access-only Meetup group. We post group photos there, but those are only accessible to Meetup group members...and we don't force people to be in the group photos if they don't want to be. I don't even know the "real" names of people in the group, only their femme names. And only a couple of people associated with the GIC know my "real" first name (along with my phone number).

That said, there's nothing preventing someone from coming by the Black Crown afterwards, where I often go, and snapping my photo on a phone cam. But no one there knows me as anything but "Amy," either. And even if they did make the connection, what would they do with it? Tell my fiancee? She already knows and is fine with it. Tell my employer? My employment is protected by Colorado's civil rights laws, and they all saw me in a dress at Halloween anyhow. Tell my (male self's) friends? I suspect most of them would not get seriously weirded out...and, those that would, how good of "friends" are they, really?

I agree with Eryn's last paragraph:

Yes, I'd just as well keep my femme self secret among my male friends and in my workplace. I'm am, however, willing to take on limited risk in order to live my life the way I desire. I let fear rule my life for far too long.

Remember the quote from Strictly Ballroom, too: "A life lived in fear is a life half-lived."

- Amy

[JenniferYager]

Isn't this what Stonewall did some years back - outed people "for their own good" and for the good of all gays? If someone wishes to remain in the closet, that is their business and no one else's. So, yeah, I note the warning. If I come out, it will be at a time of my choosing and on my terms, ta very much.

Definitely concur...not everyone is in a place to be open about crossdressing. Let people be.

[JamieG]

Beth, do you write for the "National Enquirer?" The way you phrased your post title makes it sound like every group will out you. Now, I can't speak about every group, but I've been involved in two groups for almost 10 years, and I've never seen anyone outed by either of them. Unless of course what you mean is that by joining a group, you may become more comfortable with your femme self, and this may lead to going out into public or semi-public places. I will admit this has happened to me, but only of my own volition. There was never any pressure, just the occasional, "Are you sure you don't want to join us?" before I finally took the plunge.

If instead you simply wanted to warn people to be careful, then I can get fully behind that. It pays to know something about a group before you join it, and chances are someone on this board knows about any group you are thinking of joining, so just ask. But please don't fear monger. And if you have information about a specific incident, please share it (keeping the outed person anonymous, of course), so that our members can take care to protect themselves.

Jamie

[Linda E. Woodworth]

I participated with the local support group for several years. While I am a crossdresser the majority of members were transgendered and in various stages of SRS. I started to identify myself as the "Lone Transvestite" when describing the group. Over time I've come to realize I have little in common with the group. I have made some good friends but I have very little in common with the core of the group and have elected not to participate any more.

The group has always been very serious about maintaining the anonymity of its members. That being said I have always been very careful of what pictures I allow myself to be in.

[Marika01]

I think you're confused.

I have never heard of any group called "Stonewall."

Stonewall is a UK gay lobby group. It was "Outrage" though that did the outing. Peter Tatchell was involved with both groups. I was relying on memory and had to look it up.

[TxCassie]

I began attending my local support group last June. At the time, our city council was debating a Non-Discrimination ordinance that was to include Gender Identity. It was a major debate that had every Conservative Christian Fundamentalist out spewing all the hate you can possibly imagine. My support group was fore front in the fight. Yet, our President always emphasize that no one was expected to take part of any public debate. She always informed us when TV cameras would be present at any function.

Next week, on Nov.21st, we will be having our TDOR event which TV Cameras will be present, as well, as some public figures, and a lot of people we don't normally see at our regular meetings. Once again, our President announced last week of the camera presence and the possibility of protesters giving the heated debate of the Non-Discrimination fight. (Oh, btw, we won the fight and the NDA passed. The conservative fraction vowed to recall every city councilman who voted for the ordinance. So, protesters at this years TDOR is very possible. One of the things our President mention was that the protester may take pictures as we arrive to the MCC church, so BE AWARE, BE PREPARED. She has made it so, that while the church will be used for the event, our meeting hall, were we hold our meeting will be open so those who wish to be not in the public eye, can view the service in the safe of the meeting hall. No cameras will be allowed in the meeting hall or during the reception that will be held after the service. Print media will be there, but that is not as near threatening to privacy than cameras.

So, while the group can do what he can do to protect our privacy, we must be responsible enough to make good judgment calls. If I find the risk too great to attend the TDOR event, I will stay home. I will be disappointed of course, but until I have courage and make the decision that "it no longer matters" to me, the decision to stay "closeted' is mine and mine alone. I know the risks.

Cassie

[Roberta Marie]

I have to agree with the "National Enquirer" sounding subject title. I am assiciated with 2 support groups, both of which have the primary function of support, and both recognize that part of that support is protecting the privacy of members. One group, which has as its mission to support crossdressers and their families but has one or two TSs, has specific policies and guidelines regarding privacy. It has a website, but there are no pictures of memebers. It also has a Yahoo group which is primarily used for communicating to within the group, but does have a photo section.

The other group is less formal, and is made up primarily of TSs, with a few of us CDs. Every meeting is started with a reminder that "What happens there stays there," and everyone is respectful for the need of privacy. While they do not have a website, they do have a presence on Facebook, and we all know what privacy issues there are there.

While I'm not saying that there may be some support groups who have lax or non-existant privacy policies, from my experience and from what I've read in this tread, they appear to be in great minority. I don't think that this should discourage anyone from seeking support, but only perhaps to exercise some common sense when exploring one's options.