Gender studies 101

[May(be)]

Hey gang, long time no see.

I have a question, and it might be incredibly naive. I'm wondering, considering that sex and gender are now considered separate things, why do we still use the same words to describe both?

If sex equals male/female (or intersex), why does gender also have to equal male/ female? Wouldn't it be more useful to start anew and propose new words for these extremes on the gender spectrum?



tl;dr- why don't we use language to describe gender that is independent from the language we use to describe sex?

[Beverley Sims]

Everybody is doing 101.
How about some second year subjects.

[May(be)]

Haha, yeah... It is a cliche' title. Probably could have been more creative. I put 101 becuase it seems like such a basic question, but unless I'm missing something really obvious, I think it's a good one.

[kimdl93]

Only really doctrinaire individuals insist on using the term sex and gender differently. Sex and gender are understood in common usage to mean one's biologically apparent apparatus.

However, gender and sexuality are two different things. Gender in this case referring to one's physical and emotional identification as male/female or somewhere in-between. Gender is apart from sexuality, which could be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual....with some allowance for variance as well.

[Lilith]

What I've heard before is that sex, a person's biology, is man/woman. And gender, how a person mentally/emotionally/spiritually identifies or publicly projects, is male/female. Did I understand your question properly?

[May(be)]

Not really. My question is if we make a distinction between sex and gender these days, why do we cling to antiquated terms? Sex and gender are different, so why do we use the same words to describe distinctly different spectra? Wouldn't it be liberating to use different terms, so people don't think that sex and gender go hand-in-hand? I think the failure of language to keep up with changing philosophy of identity is a detriment to gender liberation. Am I wrong?

What if the gender spectrum didn't use "man/woman", but instead used, say, the color spectrum? On one end is red and at the other is violet? I think that using man/woman for gender, and using male/female for sex (or vice versa) keeps the conversation limited to only address what could be considered traditional gender roles. Shouldn't gender have its own terminology so the fallacious association no longer perpetuates?

I think divorcing gender of traditional terms used to describe sex would solve that problem, and liberate people to explore gender without having to acknowledge at all a relationship to their biological sex. I think keeping terms used to describe gender, which are derivative of biological sex indicators, keeps up the idea of the false dichotomy.

[kimdl93]

I understand what you're saying, May. Unfortunately, we can't really accomplish this separation. Words in English seldom are precisely and narrowly defined, outside of very careful use in scientific journals. At best, one needs to offer their intended meaning for the term "gender", and ask that the reader apply that definition in the specific context. Once you get outside those closely controlled confines, definitions become a free for all.

[May(be)]

Would it be a bad thing if gender became "free for all"? That aside, I think there is a need for new definitions or terminology of gender, if only because the old system only perpetuates misunderstanding and mental prejudice. To your point though, Kim, that kind of shift in thinking would be hard to come by. I think there has to be an enlightened popular movement to make this freedom a reality.

[NicoleScott]

There's sex (male/female determined by our chromosomes and equipment between the legs and internally), sexuality (who I'm attracted to), and gender. I get your point. The school sends home forms to be filled out. Half ask for my child's sex, the other half ask for gender. They see sex and gender as the same, and for a lot of people, it is. How about sex terms male or female, and gender terms masculine and feminine. But how about all those somewhere between masculine and feminine, an issue that's rather rare in describing sex, when it's either male or female (with rare exceptions)?

[May(be)]

"masuline/ feminine" is the same problem, and I think it perpetuates the same prejudices. In my opinion, gender terminology should completely indemnify itself from sexual terminology, so much so that one would never mistake the two as the same thing (or even corollary) ever again.

[NicoleScott]

It sounds like you see sex and gender as totally unrelated things. Yes, they are different but not totally separate.
This reminds me of particle physicists naming quarks: up/down or strange/charmed even though they are neither up nor charmed but just different names for quarks possessing different properties. So you want two distinct names, how about chocolate and vanilla, recognizing that some people like their flavors mixed in an infinite number of proportions? We can't have a name for every point along a scale (because they are points, not landing pads).
If gender became a "fee for all" (which it actually is, but not in words) it would cease to have any meaning. But it does have meaning, how we present or identity as opposed to what our sex is. Who we are as opposed to what we are.

[binx]

May, I get where you're coming from, but I agree with Kim that sex and gender are seen as the same thing for most people. Creating new words to further categorize the topic of gender just wouldn't work IMO. At least not for now. The subject is still so fresh in today's world and even totally unknown to some people. I think that creating a new title would only cause some people to further alienate the idea. (Yeah, it would open the eyes of a few, but create a whole group of outsiders to many, many others) I think more people learning about the whole concept would be able to understand and accept more easily if it's explained in common terms. As in, Mark is biologically a male, but his gender, or how he feels or presents, is a mixture of or absense of male/female. I think that a statement like that would be better understood (not saying 100% readily accepted) than saying Mark is biologically male but his gender is mauve. (Color reference = new gender terminology)

I also think it would be beyond difficult to define ALL genders. Couple that with the fact that two people who identify with the same gender might have completely separate definitions of that gender. To make new words to define gender, you would have to actually DEFINE gender in a way that everyone agreed on. As far as a spectrum system goes, that would be subject to interpretation. "Magenta" means blahbityblah to me, but "magenta" means hoopityhoop to someone else. It makes it a moot point.

*brain explodes* Sorry for the length and all-over-the-place-ness.

[LilSissyStevie]

Gender does have it's own spectrum. The masculine/feminine spectrum. The problem is that it is impossible to separate gender from it's historical/cultural contexts which are intimately bound to biology. It is the job (culturally speaking) of men to be masculine and the job of women to be feminine. In fact, it is these roles that men and women are supposed to fill that define what is masculine or feminine. It is not necessarily a woman's nature to "feminine," it's just her social role. This is easy to see when you look at different cultures, time periods and classes. We live in a time when the gender paradigm is becoming unglued. Once upon a time the division of labor between the sexes was strictly defined but that's no longer true. Gender outside of the purely physical functions is becoming obsolete. Once you divorce gender from physical sex, there is nothing left but the muddled symbolic residue of the past - enter the cross-dresser.

[kimdl93]

I'm a realist...despite the fact that I prefer to present as a woman I meant the term free for all to mean that in public discourse words like sex, gender, sexuality, or whatever all tend to mean whatever each person wants them to mean. And the misunderstanding and prejudice drive the user's intended meaning. Some people who will be more careful and considerate in their choice of words, others will not - and for the most part, real communication will be stifled.

I'm reminded of George Bernard Shaw's observation about two people divided by a common language. In the case of gender, we are a multitude of people divided by commonly used (if carelessly used) words and individual prejudices.

[NicoleScott]

"Hey there's John."
"Yeah, he's a nice guy, don't you think?"
"Yes, he's somewhat Magenta, don't you think?"
"I'm not familiar with that. What do you mean?"
"His gender. He's magenta. Probably about 40% magenta. The rest chartreuse."
"I don't understand. Please explain."
"He's kind of...................feminine."
"Oh yes, feminine."

Back to square one.

[binx]

NicoleScott, exactly! And in so many fewer words than what I said lol

[mikiSJ]

May

You are not doing well in class today.

[May(be)]

MikiSJ, I disagree, so far the arguments that I've heard are that people lack the imagination to understand that a different system is possible. Yes, change is hard, but I don't see how any of us benefit from the current system/ gender language tied to sexual identifiers. I'd go so far as to say that using sexual terms to describe gender is- by definition- sexist.

[Lilith]

Ah I understand now, May. That's a good question. I'm honestly surprised that there aren't spectrum words. Think about sexuality. Now there aren't just homosexual, heterosexual, and bisexual. There are asexual, pansexual, etcetera. I feel as though it is only a matter of time. Society seems to be becoming more open and aware to the spectrum of identities versus human binaries. These terms usually begin within the communities who identify with them. So hey, why not start it here?

[NicoleScott]

May, suppose you pick new words for the ends of the gender spectrum - new words that have no other meanings - how would you define these words without using terms like masculine/feminine or referencing attributes or mannerisms commonly associated with men/women? Then, after that, what do you call all the in-between genders? Those of us who lack imagination want to know.

[May(be)]

I hope you don't think that I'm making a slight toward you, NicoleScott. Please don't think that by identifying with either of these two indicators, that you lack imagination.

I don't think it's my place to say what the answer is, only to point out that the current system may be counter to a lot of our goals. That being said, however, since you asked- and this isn't the answer- how about "gentle/ stout", or "tough/ tender"? I don't have all the answers, but I do have a question.

Again, I don't claim these are the right answers, but what I do claim is that a culture that is thriving- not receding- is constantly inventing new language to describe the new reality that it is creating. Hip hop did that, Rock and roll did that 60 years ago. Am I wrong that there is a need for new language to describe our thriving community, as well?

[binx]

how about "gentle/ stout", or "tough/ tender"?

I don't know about things like that. What about a big, burly man that enjoys boxing and meditating in a butterfly garden? Is he tough or tender? Would his gender change depending on his mood or activity? If so, what would be the point of identifying with a specific gender?

Please know I'm not being argumentative. I see your point. I'm just trying to build on what you're saying.

For my own clarification, which words/language are you referring to in the rock and roll or hip hop context? If we're thinking about the same type of thing, most of those words became popular not out of necessity, but just as something trendy. And a majority of them aren't used anymore.

Am I wrong that there is a need for new language to describe our thriving community, as well?

I don't think you're wrong. I just think there are waaaay too many blurred lines for it to be defined with vocabulary. Giving a name to every point on a spectrum would be nearly impossible.

[Vickie_CDTV]

The trans community has (and has had for a long time) our own terminology and language to describe our condition, even if some terms lack precision (much like the English language can lack precision at times.)

[sometimes_miss]

I'm wondering, considering that sex and gender are now considered separate things, why do we still use the same words to describe both?<snip> why does gender also have to equal male/ female? Wouldn't it be more useful to start anew and propose new words for these extremes on the gender spectrum?

Because that's the way 99% of the general population does it, and 99% of those, don't want to learn anything different, so we learn to live with it. To them, there's: Male or Female, and that's it, each encompasses the complete physical sex and gender together. If it's not in the bible (Koran, Torah, whatever book they subscribe to, sorry if I misspelled anything) they don't want to deal with it. The fact that so many want to kill us just for offending their beliefs tells you a lot of how the world is still so screwed up by people who legislate laws regulating behavior appropriate to particular sex (there are still laws on the books against dressing in clothes of the opposite physical sex, remember?). We still have such laws in the backwards areas of the U.S., so you can imagine how bad it is in some even more backwards places.

[NicoleScott]

May, no harm done, no offense taken. But to the point:
I'm just having trouble seeing how we can use different words to describe different gender identities and/or presentations by defining them without using the kind of words you want to get away from, like masculine/feminine. Even tough and tender have implications, so they would need to be new words to avoid stereotyping (tough=manly, tender=womanly).