Gender studies 101

[Rhonda Darling]

We are not alone!

See: http://apps.carleton.edu/student/orgs/saga/pronouns/ and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-...utral_pronouns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_...glish#Pronouns
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2..._catch_on.html

In other words, a quick google search and some reading is probably in order so we can examine and build on what others have already begun.

Best,
Rhonda

[Beverley Sims]

This isn't 101....
This is part of a Phd.
Where everyone gets bogged down in pedantics.

Sorry, I just read closely and there is some serious thought here.
My statement still stands everyone gets bogged down and clear discussion goes out the door.
Stay on track and it is interesting reading.

[Jackie7]

Lilith has it right I think, these are spectrums not binary poles. There are infinite shades and degrees on each axis. By the way there are at least four axes to consider:

-biological sex, male to female and all of the intersex conditions in between. you're born with this, and while medical intervention can change the details it doesn't change the chromosomes.

-sexual preference, hetero to homo with all of the bi, pan, and poly points in between. people will argue about whether this is given by nature or nurture, personally I think it is some of both. Seems to be somewhat malleable in adolescents but wired into adults? I dunno really.

-gender, your internal compass, how you think of yourself, again it is a spectrum. I think this does change as we grow and age. I believe my female aspects have emerged and become stronger as I've lived, loved partners, raised children, and aged.

-gender presentation, how you look, act, and dress. The most changeable of the four axes, but driven somehow by the other three. I feel like a woman sometimes, and it feels good to match how I present with how I feel.

Of course these are related, but they are also somewhat independent and contradictory. So when you think of these axes - and speak to others of them - as spectrums or ranges, the poles we call "male" and "female" become merely references that mark the ends of each axis. Few people live out there at the ends, and hardly anyone occupies the same point on all four axes.

I recall a presentation at a conference suggesting there were a total of seven axes to consider, but these four are what stayed with me as covering most of what concerns us. I think. Good thread anyway, interesting range of views.

[NicoleScott]

Rhonda, I checked out your links. At first, the first one made me chuckle, but then I could see how overboard (in my opinion) this has become.

So, how do we avoid making incorrect assumptions about gender pronouns? ASK!
"Do you have a preferred pronoun?"

Really?
If I were to meet a man (any man-an NFL lineman) with his wife and kids by his side, am I to ask what pronoun he prefers me to use when referring to him?
Is it really an "incorrect assumption" to refer to a woman as "she" or "her"? Or is the assumtion correct, but the pronoun incorrect - that is, the pronoun you prefer a mismatch with the pronoun gender you present? Isn't it OK to assume gender, with the understanding that if I assumed wrong and you correct me, that I will abide by your preference? Do we live in a time when someone who looks like a man takes OFFENSE by being called "he"? And that his taking offense is MY problem?
If making assumptions is wrong, how about this:
A CDer transforms to go out for the day, and does everything possible to blend, to appear female. While shopping and encountering SA's, the CDer expects to be referred to using feminine references, taking offense when a rude SA says "may I help you, SIR!" A CDer doesn't want to be asked what pronouns to use, just refer to me as I present myself. Isn't that an assumption a CDer WANTS people to make?
A shopper goes to the mall, and while there needs to use the restroom. The shopper sees a security guard and asks "where's the restroom?" Should the security guard, seeing a beautiful young woman before him, be instructed to ask "which one?".
I don't know, it just seems to me that it's getting ridiculous.
None of this is directed at Rhonda, who provided the links.

[gracee]

Then there's this. We speak of "having sex" with each other but do we ever say "having gender"?

[Lucy_Bella]

Take the word sex... It is a noun that describes and object.. The object it describes involves genders sometimes of the same gender with sexual and or intercourse .. Sex is also used as reference to reproductive parts "gender" ..In gender you have 3 types ..Male, female and neutral ..

Gender= Biological
Sex= Representing the act of or reproductive parts..

[Wildaboutheels]

I think it's as simple as that probably at least 80% of the population on the planet [just a guess] old enough to recognize most of the visual cues that set females apart from males, simply think of other Humans as male OR female. Unless they know/have encountered an actual Human that makes them wonder, they expect that men and women will pretty much stick to the "right" clothing and "presentation" for their own sex. This is especially easy to assume for people on the prowl looking for a mate. It's no mystery as to what "most" women and men are looking for in a mate. At least, to get the ball rolling and increase one's odds.

I think most "normal" folks just think of them as interchangeable.

[Julogden]

Sex is male/female/intersex, gender or gender identity is essentially bipolar but actually is more a continuum from man to woman.

Carol

[Rachael Leigh]

Now I can tell there are much smarter folks on this thread than me, but for me I've finally came up with term for me. It's Im cross gendered, I know I'm male in all the parts that count and that can't change. I know many think it can Im just not inclined to go there, so I'm cross gendered. When I dress I'm not a women but I'm somewhere between man and women so cross gendered . My two cents worth

[dusktreader]

I think that masculine/feminine work very well for describing gender. Usually these adjectives are joined with adverbs describing to what degree an attribute expresses gender:

"That skirt adds very feminine lines to her shape."
"Don't you think those shoes make you look a bit masculine?"

They aren't essentialist terms as I see them. There isn't some essential trait or quantifiable state that is feminine or masculine.

It doesn't lend itself to the English language to use male/female as gender descriptors. These work a lot better when we're describing something quantifiable like biological sex. One wouldn't naturally say:

"His work boots make him look so male right now!"
"She's been working on her gait to make it more female"

I think you'll find that substituting masculine and feminine into those previous sentences makes them much more natural.

Another point I'm going to make while I'm up on this soap-box is that there aren't degrees of sex in the same way that there are degrees of gender. There are, of course, intersex people, but it isn't as smooth and continuous as a distribution like gender is. One pitfall I think we can get to is thinking of sexuality and gender as *orthogonal* axes in some sort of human continuum. They aren't, though! Like it or not, there is correlation between gender and sex! They aren't the same axis, but they don't work completely independently of each other. You can move independently along those two continua, but your natural position on one isn't completely uninfluenced by your position on the other.

I think these sorts of discussions are really interesting, but I think we have to be careful about getting so caught up on the details that we overlook the important things. You should describe yourself in the way that you find the most fulfilling and honest to your feelings!

[Amanda M]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! The last think we need is more labels.

[linda allen]

You can assign whatever meaning to a word or words that you want to but if you want to be understood by others, you have to use the definitions that are in general use. The public uses the terms "gender" and "sex" interchangeably except that "sex" can also mean the act of intercourse.

You are wasting your time if you think you can change this.