Male or Female? Challenge - ALL Welcome to Reply

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

There have been plenty of threads about how we (CDers) feel when dressed (fully or partially). Normally the responses relate to expressing various feelings/emotions, actions or past-times. However, an interesting thing occurred yesterday when I went out with two GG friends who were meeting Isha for the first time . . . so bear with me as I recount and lay the framework for the challenge.

I met my friends for lunch with another GG friend who has already met Isha. We went through the normal niceties and question answering period then settled down for lunch. About halfway through the meal and great conversation, one of my friends turns to me and says "I have to admit I was expecting a whole different person when I came here" I asked her what she meant and she expanded that with the exception of the clothes, make-up, mannerisms and voice, it was like she was having lunch with "boy me". The conversation was the same, the feelings were the same and humor was the same. My other friends all agreed that it was just me with a different shell.

So . . . this got me thinking. Do we really change when we dress (regardless of extent of dressing)? Are we more male or more female? Now before anyone gets on the "gender" bandwagon and points out the glaringly obvious (what's between your legs), this is not what I am referring to . . . I get genetics. My challenge revolves around you as a person and how you feel. This is also for GGs and TSs to ponder as I believe it is salient to all on this forum.

The Challenge:

Do you feel "male" or "female". Sounds easy right? But here are the "arcs of fire". You cannot default to:

1. Genetics (that is a given - you are either genetic male or female)

2. Physiology (you cannot state what is between your legs)

3. Clothing choice: We all get that clothing can define a person's look. Dresses are for girls and not for boys. However this is what society has dictated not some natural law defining male/female.

4. Mannerisms/Feelings: Yes some mannerisms are more feminine than masculine but in the end they are just that mannerisms. Feelings . . . well, I posit that we can all feel a wide range of emotions and not one is particular to men or women.

5. Past-times/Hobbies and the Likes: Can these truly be male or female only? I know lots of men who enjoy stereotypical female past-times and vice versa. So can a past-time truly define male/female?

In fairness, I pondered this question all yesterday after leaving my friends. I could not answer it with any one thing. While to the outside world I am a male trying to present female, that is just society's constraint placed on me. If I don't use the "arcs of fire" above to define me I am left with the me that has always existed "pre" and "post" Isha. I am just a person with various wants, desires, likes, emotions and so forth. No magic beans or pixie dust here where I transform into a woman with mythical female qualities. Just me with as my friend said "a different shell". In the end I don't truly feel male or female . . . I just feel like the person I was meant to be.

So once you strip the above physiology/genetics/ and stereotypes away what are you left with to define male or female? I would argue that if you look past the superficial you will see a "person" plain and simple. We can all do things to make ourselves feel feminine just like we can do things to make ourselves feel masculine but in the end we don't change who we are.

As a final note I want to wish you and your families a Happy Holiday season. Stay safe and enjoy.

Hugs

Isha

[Kate Simmons]

I'm empathic, so it basically goes down to a "soul" level for myself where no such thing as gender really exists. I assume the qualities of who and what I want to be at any given time by my own personal choice so am not "locked in" to looking or acting any certain way.This puts me in charge of my own destiny more or less.Works for me Hon.

[NancyJ]

Interesting question. I have asked it of myself multiple times in the version of "what am I?" Or ? "Who am I?" I know I'm not (and don't want to be) entirely male, and I know I'm not female (but think I would have been happier as). I remember in grad school as I searched the library dorm top to bottom (this was mid-70's) looking for information to explain how I felt I came across this academic paper that wasn't that helpful in my self understanding, but I liked the title and have come to think that it fits me. I t was titled "The Drive To Become Both Sexes" referring to gender. I believe that I am neither and both. Nancy

[NicoleScott]

1) Male
2) Male
3) Male but not macho male. No compensation for being a CDer, but no feminine clues in my dressing choices. When I CD, I like oer-the-top femme.
4) Generally male but not macho male. Any feminine mannerisms in femme mode are somewhat fake to avoid an obvious CDer giveaway in public.
5) Both. I'm quite handy with tools, fixing and making things. But I also sew, cook, and do crafts, even girly crafts.

Summary - I'm a guy who likes to crossdress.

[mary something]

I think once you strip away all the stuff that you mentioned you are still left with you of course. It's good that you're at peace with yourself and accepting of yourself. Socially do you have a preference in how people view and treat you based upon how they perceive you as either being male or female?

[samanthasolo]

Isha, you are one who in your own thought processes always pose the questions that are such that not only get others to think, but the thoughts and questions are always those that are a mutual means to get a better understanding of yourself and of others. Bravo! This is one of the processes which assists others in getting past the superficial and right to the heart of being HUMAN!

I do feel almost exactly as you express but somewhat in an opposite manner. I don't change anything about the person I am when I dress. I have the same ideals, morals, thought processes and anything and everything that defines me as a person is the same regardless of my presenting female or the 95% of my time appearing as the male I was born! I am ME regardless. Now here is the opposite. I am not out to anyone other than my wife so no one knows anything other than what they see when they see me. Now when I am out among others that dress they know the me as a person only seeing my female presentation but I do know for sure if they saw my male appearance and we interacted and shared in conversation face to face they would know that it was still ME! Less all of the female shell as you put it. I would also venture to say that of anyone I know were to see me dressed without any inclination of ME would not recognize by the sight of ME but it would only take them a few moments to know who I AM once a conversation would ensue.

Great topic Isha, although total understanding might not ever be achieved by any one of us on an individual level it is threads and thoughts like these that will always bring us one step closer!

[Candice Mae]

You are who are, clothes do change that. In my opinion if you change greatly where you dress you are acting and not being true to your self. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but is just not who I am.

[Laura912]

Before someone else says it, "I yam what I yam." Very little changes when going between states of being Laura or the other, except some superficial mannerisms. I have worked in the shop, dressed, and had a great time making sawdust. I, also, think that some feelings of where one is depends on how far along the spectrum of completely becoming the other gender. But then becoming the other gender is actually really being ones true self, so the statement that we are what we are still stands. Some just have not completely arrived at their endpoint. Those with SO's who are just finding out about cross dressing are dealing with the same phenomena. Their SO's are afraid that they will become someone else or perceive them to be someone else, yet, the dresser really remains the same person although the dresser may be struggling to find that person.

[Marcelle]

Hi Laura,

Interesting observation about the SO. My wife was mortified that I was going to suddenly change overnight into a different person. However, with the exception that I am less angry, moody and much happier (all good things according to her), she has seen no difference in "boy" me and "girl" me. In fact I truly believe this has helped immensely in here understanding and support.

BTW "I yam what I yam" . . . LOL.

Hugs

Isha

[Katey888]

Isha - congratulations, you have done it again... you have really managed to encapsulate a large part of our CD ConunDrum and asked some very pertinent qs. Had you asked me two weeks ago I think you would have got a slightly less tolerant answer, but here goes for me...
I have aspects that feel both masculine and feminine and it is particularly around the look and the way that I would like to present myself. I like that I can be 'softer' and less competitive when I dress (but I still like looking good!) and that is the part that I envy of women: it is easier for them to be more rational 'man'; easier to power dress for effect; more acceptable to move closer to male presentation that for us to move the other way. I've always liked the company of women more than men, and while some of that time has been about errrr... male objective pursuit, shall we say, a lot of the time it's just because I've found it easier. As a rule (gross generalisation coming up - look away now if you're squeamish..) I find generic male company tedious and unsophisticated. Too much competition; too much 'alpha-male' pursuit (who tf came up with that anyway? Now everyone with balls and stubble wants to prove how manly and alpha they are in every conversation and activity..) - it seems different with females, and you (and others) seem to have found that expression and way forward. I might even like to find a way to do that myself - scary thought.
To answer your (tough) question: perhaps we are homo superior - perhaps we can move into a middle space without losing all the genetic and physiological trappings of being male, but we can only do that in our own community at present because it's the imposition of societal norms that hold back everyone from expressing themselves as an individual person. You're right that it shouldn't matter, but it does to most people, because most people don't have the capacity to stretch their tolerance and understanding of others.

And I haven't mentioned sex once

I think there's more depth to this question but I've soapboxed enough - thanks!
Kateyx

[kimdl93]

I don't change. I certainly don't attempt to affect a change. When I came out to several GG friends we soon got past the different attire and related as we always had before. One commented that, you're the same person, just with nicer outfits. In some respects, I suppose the feminine part of me has always shown through in my relations with women...it's not an act.

I'm sure they continue to perceive me as male, given the context that's understandable. As a male, I often conform to expectations in attitude and behavior. I suspect the incongruity would seem greater to male friends. Again, I'd be the same person beneath the clothes, but their perceptions might be more deeply challenged.

[celeste26]

The feminine part is always there, hidden most of the time. The male clothes work well to hide the feelings and people are eager to simply take that image for itself. So it has always been the feminine me hidden that you've come to know and assume is really masculine. By changing the outer layer and dressing feminine, it changes nothing at all "of me", but allows a greater connectedness, a greater freedom for me.

The perceptions that others have of us because of our dressing in drab, in no way cancels out what is going on inside all the time but hidden.

[GretchenJ]

Ok Isha, I just had my 2nd cup of coffee, so I think I can answer it

I think of my life as a Venn Diagram ( the picture where there are two circles that have a section in the middle that represents the common aspects between the two circles)

My middle section is very large, it contains all my thoughts, feelings, most of my emotions, moral beliefs. The outside of the circles represent my boy and girl sides. I am in my boy side most of the time, and it's a great place to be. This is where I share my great life with my wife and family, and have no objection, other than my occasion bouts with the blues

My right side is my female side. It does not require clothes for me to tap into it, but it is more complete when I am wearing female clothing. I am never depressed, somewhat anxious though most somewhat more emotional. I have a definite emotional feminine bond, but not in a sexual sort of way - Mecca would be a night out at a restaurants with a bunch of girls, be it GG or not in a total platonic environment, when I see a bunch of girls out, I am somewhat jealous, a GNO is much different than a guys night out, there are no thoughts or dating a man, or a woman, also because I love my wife) But IF i ever carry on a conversation with another human as Gretchen, I think I would come off as the same person as I would in my traditional guy mode and have the same personality traits, that part of me in indeterminate in which way I am presenting as

Gretchen

[Beverley Sims]

Isha,
I think I still think mle but wear female clothes.
No my personality does not change, if it did some would recognise it and think it weird.

[julia marie]

Isha. Great challenge, particularly when you strip out all the easy answers. I would suggest leaving number 4 as just "mannerisms", because "feelings" gets into what we think, and become part of the legit answers. I think that, like Gretchen, I land in some overlap in the Venn diagram. Even when I'm dressed and I think I've done a good job with makeup etc., I never feel completely female. Comfortable, yes, but not like I truly am a woman. When in guy mode what I'm finding is that I no longer feel like it's an "us and them" thing. Maybe I feel some degree of empathy or bond with women more often. Maybe smiling more when I'm speaking casually with them, maybe feeling a little softer or more vulnerable, maybe subconsciously emulating some of their mannerisms (sorry, that's taboo number 4). So, whether dressed as man or woman, yes, I'm just me, but I find that the inner me is more frequently falling into the overlap piece of the Venn. And, that overlap is growing. I'd like to think that dressing has helped to make me a better person whatever my mode of apparel.

[Lady Catherine]

Based on what you are asking, I can only say I feel like me. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just simply me.

[Chari]

No matter where we are comfortable on the "gender scale", each of us is a unique individual who has needs, desires, and talent to be different from everyone else. Regardless of the "packaging" - be it gal or guy styles, we continue thru life trying to understand and accept who we are at any given moment. We are taught and categorized by society to fit into a certain mold to achieve what is necessary to be accepted in that society. Many of us are fearful as to how much we should show others who we really are, and stay hidden, while some have come out of the darkness and have hopes of enjoying all the many facets that makes them both female and male. Live & dress in "both worlds", remain confident, comfortable, and ask only for acceptability in who you are.

[Wildaboutheels]

Actually, none of your 5 apply to me as I dress "wrong" and make no attempt to pass/present myself as a female. I'm just a guy who wears what he wants to and figured out long, long ago that what strangers might think or say is completely irrelevant.

It looks to me, is that your friends observation prompted this Q and therein lay the key I believe to what your friend said. She already KNEW you and had a Relationship with you. It's completely different with strangers I believe.

[Marcelle]

So Wild,

It is safe to say that you identify as male only. So in that case what makes you male (without considering the 5 arcs of fire). Just curious as you state you are just a guy who wears what you want and my question is what defines you as male?

Hugs

Isha

[Eryn]

For me, the feeling I get when I am out dressed is one of not having the inherent obligations that society automatically puts in males. I don't have to be the protector, fixer, anchor, backdrop, etc. I can stand out a bit and enjoy the ability to express myself as I wish. Even if incomplete this is a wonderful respite from my normal life.

[Zylia]

If I were a woman, I'd probably take offence to the idea that someone who pretends to be my gender thinks he doesn't have to be an 'anchor' or a 'backdrop' as my gender. That's textbook patriarchy to me.

How am I supposed to 'feel' anything other than male if I've never been anything else? How am I supposed to know what female or gender-neutral feels like?

[Eryn]

If I were a woman, I'd probably take offence to the idea that someone who pretends to be my gender thinks he doesn't have to be an 'anchor' or a 'backdrop' as my gender. That's textbook patriarchy to me.

Look at the world around you. Women openly say that they prefer their men to be strong, stable and capable. Look at the photography in the magazines women read. Men, if pictured at all, provide the backdrop for the creative, attractive women. Look at a typical family photograph, Men standing resolutely as the backdrop behind the women. These social demands upon men are pervasive in our society.

Oh and when I'm en femme I'm not "pretending." I am the gender I am presenting.

[LaraPeterson]

Hi Isha,

For me, without the "arcs of fire," the conversation is mute. My inner self, the real me, my ying and yang, soul, spiritual part has no clothing but is dependent on presentation to identify "who" or "what" I am in the "real" world. This kind of reminds me of The Matrix where the characters had a digital residual self--in and from their minds they came up with a "look" that identified them as who they were in their thoughts apart from the physical world.

While we are definitely creatures of the ethereal, we don't live apart from our bodies, bodies that interact with others. So, if we don't dress it up and call it something, what are we to do? How CAN we identify ourselves? I WANT to feel female all the time but the first two arcs you list make that impossible. I suppose, then, that I must trick myself into believing that I may somehow be or become female, at least in my mind, but only if I present myself as such--and that requires #'s 3 & 4 of your arcs of fire.

My conclusion: the changes I make that give me a femaleness (in my mind only because not being a female I will never know what it's like to feel like one) are directly and completely connected to presentation. Otherwise, I'm just a guy in a dress.

[Stephanie Sometimes]

Before someone else says it, "I yam what I yam." .

I think Laura nailed it with the Popeye quote! Maybe that quote should be on our secret CD ID badge?

This is a good discussion, Isha. Being a GM, I can’t really know what it feels like to be female. What I feel when I CD is that I can shed those shackles imposed by society that define what is acceptable for a male to look like and to act like versus those that are unacceptable. I am the same person when I CD but I can allow those forbidden, long suppressed so called “feminine” traits to surface and to flourish. That I think is the essence of CD’ing for me, I can nurture an important part of me that has been neglected and that will in turn allow for the more complete me to exist. When I CD I feel am the more complete man.

It is fun to fantasize about flipping the CD switch to completely change genders at will, but in reality I remain the same person just exploring the outer limits of my own psyche.

Hugs,
Stephanie

[valerieg]

Bearing in mind that I've not been out very often, I can say that I am a nicer person when dressed. More likely to express thanks, more likely to offer a compliment, more likely to express my thoughts and feelings. Several years ago, I came to the conclusion that I reserve my softer side for when I'm dressed. However, I am fully aware that I'm not attempting to live life as a female and I still acknowledge that dressing is an escape for me. If ever I decided to or felt the need to be full time, the story might be different.