"Im so tired of needing to always be a man"

[MatildaJ.]

In another thread, LeighR. said that her wife doesn't tolerate any evidence of dressing.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...at-s-the-point

I wanted to focus in on one side point, but I didn't want to hijack the thread, so I started a new one. Hope that's okay.

She said she's tired of having to be the man, and I want to know more about what that might mean to cross-dressers in general.

What happens if you try to analyze or reject gendered activities separately from gendered clothes? We often have posts about "how to tell my wife that I wear women's clothing," but I can't remember any posts about any of the following topics:

"How to tell my wife that I want to quit my job."
"How to tell my wife that I want to be able to express emotions."
"How to tell my wife that I want to stop killing bugs and carrying heavy boxes for her."
"How to tell my wife that I want to stop being responsible for doing the taxes, or maintaining the car, or ..."

I know that men often say they feel trapped by their gendered roles, feel they have to compete in an aggressive male world. But I want to know more about what that feels like, and why that aspect can't be addressed separately from the clothes issue.

Maybe I'm way off track, and the only aspect that men don't like about the male role is that they aren't allowed to feel pretty. If that's true, please let me know. I'm just trying to understand how much is about the clothes and how much is about the burden of other kinds of gendered expectations.

[Laura912]

I doubt that there is a generic response to your questions because each response is based on the characteristics of the individual. Because there are many women that do all the things that you ask about, I would suggest that the issues in the questions are independent of cross dressing, unless the person doing the dressing is trying to reach a goal based on stereotypes. What does your SO say when asked these questions?

[MatildaJ.]

Hi Laura,

Yes, many women do all those things. But I'm just trying to understand what men mean when they say they're tired of having to act like men.

My husband gets tired of going to his high-powered job, and gets tired of being the person who maintains all the technology for our family. But in both cases, he doesn't actually want to give up control of those areas to me or anyone else. He just wants a vacation from time to time (whether an actual beach vacation, or a weekend playing video games, or an evening in a dress, or various other things). That made sense to me, and even if I'm not hugely enthusiastic about his dressing (or his video games), I can be understanding.

[vetobob9]

Many of us refer to being forced into stereotypical roles based on nothing but gender stereotypes. In most workplaces, if you don't live your life according to the stereotypes you can and will be fired for it.

[Teresa]

I'm not tired of the things I do as a man I was brought with the attitude of there's no such word as can't, so I would have been a trier but my sister is also a trier . I have probably achieved more as a man, but then we have a spanner in the works some how in my brain a streak of femininity crept in maybe even from birth and it's very hard if not impossible to ignore because it's always there it gives me something a man's life can never give.

[MissTee]

. . . couldn't you let yourself be a little flappable . . .

In a way, JessM, that's like asking if I couldn't just not dress. Decades of social and peer conditioning, training in the formative years which led to permanent brain and behavior wiring, blah-blah-blah. It could also be part of the male DNA that I just can't explain. In any event, the package has helped helped me be very successful in the drab universe and I'm not looking to alter that. I've simply learned to be OK with dressing, use it in a way that works for me, and not beat myself up for doing it.

On a related note, I think my wife and I spent a good 10-12 years trying to figure it all out. Pepper in some counseling (total waste of time) and we finally decided that we're both good with it, and not to try and read too much into it. Being in this forum has helped to fill in some of the blanks.

[NathalieX66]

Just because you're a guy doesn't diminish the fact that that you like to doll up, wear dresses and heels, and look pretty.

That's the burden of being a crossdresser, married or not.

[GirlieAmanda]

With my partner I am still the one who fixes the cars, lifts heavy stuff, opens jars, etc. but I enjoy being strong. I enjoy doing traditionally masculine stuff. It still makes me feel powerful and accomplished. I installed in-door car speakers and replaced many a headlight bulb even in her Prius which is a PAIN to do. My hands got all dirty and rough but I cleaned them up and they are fine. I got a few looks when the door panels were all over the place at our apartment parking lot. Just because you are a female doesn't mean you have to automatically turn into a "Helpless Hopeless" as my Mom used to say. This is the modern age, women need to be strong and capable.

[Marcelle]

Hi JessM,

Very interesting question and one I have not given any thought to simply because I cannot explain why I do what I do. Adhering to stereotypical roles . . . I do that not because it is expected but because I truly enjoy doing them. For example, I love being a solider is that the realm of men in Canada . . . nope as there are plenty of female combat soldiers. They like me do it because they enjoy it. I fix cars, do renovations, clear brush, play sports but then again so do women. I also enjoy cooking and absolutely love to vacuum. I don't do these things en femme (okay sometimes) I do them because I love to do them.

So what does that leave . . . the dressing I guess. Yes, I love the feel of women's clothing on my body and I love the fact that I can now go out in public dressed as such and I don't care. Do I do it so I can stop feeling like a man . . . nope. One look at me will only confirm that I am a guy and no amount of clothing or make-up is going to change that.

When I get together with my friends who know about Isha whether I am en femme or en boy, I talk about the same things as my likes, dislikes and vices have not changed . . . so still very much a guy. However, the one thing I do know that I enjoy "en femme" which I cannot "en boy" is a calming effect I get when I am with my GG friends. Our conversations are the same as when I am "en boy" but for some reason their acceptance of me is akin to the same acceptance I feel when I with my guy friends "en boy". May seem silly, but I feel a greater affinity to my GG friends when I am Isha then when I am "en boy"

So that is the one thing that I find differs. Other than that . . . same old, same old whether I am in skirt and heels or a suit and tie.

Hugs

Isha

[Lorileah]

First the reason you don't see those questions here is because they really are not related at all to transgenderism. They are life questions so to speak

Second, it is one of those things I think that you need to be in someone's shoes to really understand. This is because we all have a different perspective of how things are or should be. For example, I had an assumption recently that most women at sometime or another imagined what it was like to be the "man". That they would look at a guy and say "gee if I only could _______ like he does, just to try it." I was informed that this was a false assumption on my part. it is because I had the perspective that women had certain "things" they were allowed so to speak and men had other things. Like say standing to urinate (I will admit that I used to take that for granted). I know that gender stereotypes are wrong, that men can be say nurturing, just as well as a woman, but these things are so ingrained in society, we see them as "rights" the certain gender is endowed with. You use the killing bugs and lifting things example. Many people will agree that males should be the ones doing the heavy lifting in the relationship while the woman stands back and watches (now don't get all angry, this is how society has stated it should be, not how it is). Of course this has evolved because males do have a greater muscle mass in many areas. Not always true, I am a weakling when it comes to power. But if something needed to be moved, it was the men who either took it upon themselves or were asked to do it.

So when someone here says they are tired of being the "man" I can see where they are coming from. They want the ability to wear something they think is sexy (again perspective, because men think sexual dress is sexy whereas a woman may think a color or style is sexy). Unfortunately this does lead to men dressing in shall we say, overtly over sexualized styles. Things that men and women may associate with sex. Garters for instance. And when a man dresses like that the woman looks at it not as dressing sexy but dressing for sexual purposes. This is really hard to explain even when some of us have been on the other side of the coin for a while.

But women have their stereotypes too. Often here we hear about a SO who wants a hairy man, a gruff man, a man who smells of sweat, who shows what women have been told a man should appear. You were bombarded with it while you were growing up...even when it was used for things associated with women, i.e. Brawny towels (flannel shirt and biceps), Mr Clean "bald and biceps). It is why some women are attracted to the bad boy image (bikes and drinking and fights) instead of the guy who works in an office and doesn't do anything even remotely dangerous. Personally, I think having a TG spouse would be an advantage because they are less likely to do the bad boy things that are not wanted. A Tg spouse maybe more likely to sympathize with you;show emotions; like your design idea...or even see your point of view.

So it isn't that the men here want to give up alll the things that come with being male (size, strength, sexuality as such) but they would also like to enjoy and partake in what they see as things women "get" to do. Look soft, act sexy, feel less in control.

Yes we all know these things are not the realm of one sex over the other but admit it, as a woman (or for the men who read this) there are certain expectations that each gender is expected to meet. Some we enjoy some we don't (it's a rough life, suck it up and do what you are supposed to do). If a man could see it from a woman's perspective, he may not see CDing as a fun activity when he has to live up to certain stereotypes. And if we could, somehow, let the women see what we see, maybe they would be less condemning of it. Breaking away from the sexual aspects and seeing that not all or even many of the TGs, at least here, don't dress for sexual reasons. They dress to express who they are, how they feel.

But we both have our ingrained ideas of what the other is...or should be. I know that I have not in anyway cleared up your question but maybe if you could just see that it is a perspective issue and that if you and your SO could actually see how the other sees TGism it would make it at least a little clearer.

[Michelle789]

"How to tell my wife that I want to stop being responsible for doing the taxes, or maintaining the car, or ..."

I know some people (both men and women) who insist that it's the wife's job to handle the money and taxes, and that it's only natural.

I think gender roles are somewhat based on biology, but somewhat based on culture too. Perhaps in some cultures, it's the women who do the taxes. In others, the men do the taxes.

[MatildaJ.]

Certainly, if the wife already does the taxes, then her husband won't ask to get out of doing the taxes.

I am hoping to hear from men who sometimes feel they want a break from the male role, and find out what else that means to them, besides the clothes/sexiness aspect.

I didn't see your post, Tina, before I posted again. That's a good example: men sometimes wish they could rely on someone else to take care of them and make the decisions. Though maybe that desire comes and goes?

[PaulaQ]

I'll start, although I'm trans so my answers may skew things a bit.

Man stuff I hated:
1. Being expected to fix the car. You know what? I don't know anything about cars. I *hate* working on cars. But this was my deal. "because men do that"
2. Always being the one to initiate sex, be in charge of our sex life. This was 100% of my responsibility in my relationship. "because I'm shy about it" (Sometimes I wanted to be the one getting screwed. Never happened.)
3. Being the emotional bulwark everyone relied on. That is just exhausting. "you are so strong..."
4. Being allowed to express almost NO emotion in any aspect of my life. "what, are you some type of sissy" (turns out - yes.)
5. Listening to other dudes, who I did not understand, talk about ****ing sports. Endlessly.
6. Never being allowed to change much - for 20 years, I was static and unchanging.
7. The constant displays of macho needed to keep others from figuring out I was different.
8. I hated receiving stuff for men as gifts. **** it - there wasn't a thing I wanted. I was impossible to buy gifts for, and at gift giving occasions, I expected disappointment.
9. I hated feeling responsible for everything. I was the sole breadwinner in the family. If something happened to me, we were in real trouble. This was a LOT of pressure. I felt, as a man, I had no choice but to accept this role.

OK, that's a list of the stuff off the top of my head. I feel certain I could go on. I mostly tried to leave trans stuff out of it. I also know that I received great privilege in exchange for all this stuff I hated. If I hadn't hated it so much, and hated my body so much, well, I'd be a guy, because the tradeoffs are mostly worth it, unless you're transgendered.

[Tina955]

Wow Paula, that was dead on. Couldn't have said it better. I am so tired of putting up fronts to not show my true self.
I do think, had my life gone a different direction instead of getting married and having two children, I probably would have considered transitioning. My wife passed 4 years ago, and even tho my kids are adults, I don't want them to feel like they are losing dad too. I am now a frustrated crossdresser, because I want more than just the clothes.

Tina

[vetobob9]

I know some people (both men and women) who insist that it's the wife's job to handle the money and taxes, and that it's only natural.

I think gender roles are somewhat based on biology, but somewhat based on culture too. Perhaps in some cultures, it's the women who do the taxes. In others, the men do the taxes.

Actually modern roles such who runs the money and does taxes is based purely on bigotry within the culture and has absolutely nothing to do with biology or genetics.

[Michelle789]

He'll yes they are enforced that rigidly!!!! Neither woman I married could handle any display of emotion on my part . My current wife completely freaked if I displayed uncertainty. I had to be decisive and confident all the time. At jobs I've had - are you kidding me? I can't imagine crying at work - my management wouldn't have tolerated it . In school it was made VERY clear to me that boys don't cry.

Prejudice towards gender variant behavior ranges from murder to subtle discrimination.

Sometimes it takes extreme forms like murder or brutal beatings.

Sometimes it takes more subtle forms like getting excluded from the clique, getting shunned, getting passed over for a promotion or raise, or getting laughed at or teased.

Sometimes it takes an in between form of verbal harassment, or someone yelling and screaming at you, or telling you to "figure it out", or to "man up".

I got bullied on one of my previous jobs - my boss always said "figure it out" when I asked for help.

I lost another of my previous jobs because of lack of confidence, even though my boss wasn't exactly the most confident person either.

Someone that I really trusted, a psychic, told me to "man up" and she yelled at me when she said it. She also told me that "gender confusion comes from the devil".

I got bullied in school, and when I went to file a complaint to the principal, the administrators told me that I need to learn to deal with bullies on my own, and that I can't always keep filing complaints.

And plenty of people have been through much worse than I have been.

No wonder men can be such jerks sometimes. They're forced to be.

[Tina955]

This is just my view, but the way I see it, if a woman is having a hard go at life, she can always find a man that can take all the pressure off. (not necessarily monetary, since many women make more money these days) Men don't generally have that option. So no matter how bad your life is going, just man up and get over yourself. That is what I've been taught.
Just an example, my two sisters are living the high life with entrepreneurial husbands, while my three brothers and I have pretty much struggled our entire lives.
I am happy for my sisters, but just trying to make my point. And again this is all thru my jaded eyes. I know some will disagree.

Tina

[busker]

[QUOTE=JessM.;3395297]

"How to tell my wife that I want to quit my job."
"How to tell my wife that I want to be able to express emotions."
"How to tell my wife that I want to stop killing bugs and carrying heavy boxes for her."
"How to tell my wife that I want to stop being responsible for doing the taxes, or maintaining the car, or ..."


you probably won't find these questions here because they really seem to relate to being an adult, rather than a cross-dresser. There are men and women who never marry or perhaps never have a partner, yet these tasks are all part of life, and being an adult. We have to work, like it or not. Perhaps you meant "my husband wants to quit his mining job and become a seamstress"? That would be a possibility here because of the general gender connection. Men are also in the fashion world, but as a guy going into the fabric store, I can tell I'm intruding no matter what I buy.
Men aren't -generally- brought up to express a lot of emotion. My father never really showed much but at some point in life he was in love with my mother and I'm certain at that point he did show emotion. It's an "acceptable" time to do so, but after, one had better get back to "being a man".
Some boys don't like bugs, and that would carry over as an adult, and while they feel they have to "man up" and do it, they might just rather not. I'm not squeamish, but prefer not to kill anything, bugs included, and more so, since they have a function on this planet other than being the object of the pest control guy who brings the profits for the likes of Monsanto.
And finally, taxes, car maintenance, etc CAN be very streesful, especially if one is not good at it, and all men are not created equal in that regard. Some guys can rebuild a car blindfolded and some can't find the spare tire. When one is expected because of gender, then that is where the pressure is. The same for women whose male half wants them to "be sexy" all the time. It is a pressure that people--men and women--don't need. Too often we fail to explain that to our partners and wind up in the gutter.
Gender in general is a problem because it tends to lock us in pretty hard and fast in roles that we may not want or appreciate. Expectations from others --learned from parents--must often be met, but with great consequences on the part of the person who is expected to "perform" whatever. I can do just about anything, my brother is brainy but clutzy, yet the expectations about our ability "to do" is equal.
Men are expected to dress conservatively, women more flamboyant--if they wish. We have turned general dress into absolutes rather than "our costume for the day" It is, after all, just a costume, and we are the players. Haven't you ever asked yourself, what do I want to look like today? When I was young and out to impress, my dress role models were Cary Grant, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire and even Nick Charles---but never ASTA. Now, It's Amandas, no-panty-line underwear, camis and bras (I have gynecomastia), and I'm not out to impress.
It was a good question and though I haven't logged on in ages, I thought it worth doing just to add another point of view.
take care

[devida]

Well, I do understand what you're saying. I too am sick to death of being a man, in terms of the ideas that I labored under for most of my life believing were necessary to being masculine. In fact I never did act much like the stereotype of manliness that I thought I had to maintain. I was always pretty queer and, really, nobody treated me like I was some masculine hunk. What I discovered was that this was really entirely up to me. Nobody actually had the ability to force me to be masculine. I gave them that power. It was never theirs. My gender identity was always mine. I did not have to do what I, in my confused view, thought was masculine. Nobody was telling me I had to be this or that. I was telling myself what manliness was, based on cues from my childhood and the general society. All I had to do was recognize that and understand I really could do whatever I wanted. Of course there are consequences to all of our actions, non-conforming or not, but they're rarely as bad as what we imagine. In fact, these days, society in the West is so much more tolerant of gender deviance that it's historically unprecedented. If you don't want to be what you think is masculine, don't be. Find out who you want to be, and try to be that, rather than what you think other people want you to be. They actually probably don't care as much as you think they do. Life, especially for someone trying to discover their true identity, gender, or otherwise, is an adventure of self-discovery. Don't freeze yourself in place with fear and anxiety. Enjoy the adventure!

Oops, I should have read your signature. I assumed you were a man complaining about gender expectations, not a GG/ So to a CD, so you'll have to take my comments as if I was talking to the man who was making these complaints. Sorry!

[MatildaJ.]

I did not have to do what I, in my confused view, thought was masculine. Nobody was telling me I had to be this or that. I was telling myself what manliness was, based on cues from my childhood and the general society. All I had to do was recognize that and understand I really could do whatever I wanted. Of course there are consequences to all of our actions, non-conforming or not, but they're rarely as bad as what we imagine.

I am a GG, but this is exactly how I feel about gender roles. I don't feel comfortable with all parts of the women's role in our society, and I understand my husband not wanting all the male roles. Not every wife will feel like I do -- PaulaQ has suggested that her wife would never have let her give up some of those responsibilities (for the car, for initiating sex, for putting on a macho exterior, for earning a high salary, etc.).

But I think many women would be able to be more flexible, and could discuss how to arrange the marriage so that each person is only doing tasks they feel okay about (and maybe outsourcing the rest to other people, or figuring out how to do without).

[PaulaQ]

But I think many women would be able to be more flexible, and could discuss how to arrange the marriage so that each person is only doing tasks they feel okay about (and maybe outsourcing the rest to other people, or figuring out how to do without).

I think you are correct Jess. Society doesn't make this stuff very easy to negotiate.
Women: "Congrats, you are empowered now! The equal of any man! Just don't stop doing all the stuff you used to be responsible for while you go to work now. (Erm, and don't compare your paycheck to anyone else's. It's against company policy, for ... reasons.)
Men: "You need to be sensitive, and willing to help out your spouse! And work 80 hours per week!"

Message to both: "don't vary too far from the roles you used to have - just do a whole bunch of extra outside the home work, because you are empowered now. Oh, if you fail to live up to any part of this stuff, we will really, really judge you! Oh, and we won't give you any vocabulary to even let you discuss this without getting defensive. Enjoy your freedom to be yourself!"

edit: While I acknowledge that both sides got screwed in this deal, I still maintain women got the worst end of the deal. They pay a tax for having a uterus, even if they NEVER intend to have children, and work as many hours as a man. And god forbid they actually try to be professionals AND moms. The men in corporate have no patience for that shit.

[gennee]

My father and I had some testy moments. He thought I should be more aggressive because it's a dog-eat-dog world. I chose to handle things in a quiet and unassuming way. Toward the end of his life, I earned his respect.

Subconsciously,it's projected that we have to uphold the male species. This is tiring emotionally because living life can be hard enough. I enjoy male activities (electronics, repairing things, etc.) but I prefer the feminine.

[Alice Torn]

I know, that some of us live lives of quiet desperation, as Thoreau wrote. I , at 56, was forced to have to return to my foul family of origin. My dad is now 93, full of sexual issues, and he had some sexual issues with me, but expected, but worhipped his harsh father, and still expects his adult kids to "worship him" the tyrant. It has brought many painful personal issues up, that i though i was done with. I am going through childhood anguish all over again. Gender issues, and roles, deep painful emotional stuff, about m y manhood, and fem side which i must hide, and expectations from my dad, and brother, and sister, all who are without mates. It never ends for some of us. The conflict wihin.

[Kate Simmons]

This was one of my driving points behind my current thread "Would you miss it? " As far as feeling pretty, I allow myself to. Things you mention are necessary things that need to be done, regardless of gender.

[Desirae]

At the point we are in the world now, I don't think there are any 100% male activities or 100% female activities. For every man that enjoys working on cars, I can show you another (at least) who doesn't. Not everyone is handy at doing things around the house. What about knitting? That used to be about a 100% female activity. Then along comes Rosie Greer. Remember him? My ex was terrible with money and the checkbook. She'd buy anything at any time. I took care of the money. Did I like taking care of the money? Heck no. Why? It's not because I minded taking care of the money and checkbook. It's because it was just another thing I had to do which took time away from other things that I enjoyed doing. I don't like cutting the grass, either, but I've always done it. Now, being single, I have to do EVERYTHING myself like dishes, and laundry, and grocery shopping, and snow shoveling, and lawn mowing, and balancing the checkbook, and cleaning the house, and working on the car, and repairing the house, etc. Who wouldn't want a break from having to do all that all the time? Frankly, I think females think the same way. Isn't that why people hire babysitters, to get away for a while? To get a break from it all? It has nothing to do with "feeling pretty" or needing to CD. That's just one form of escape. No different than a hobby in some respects, at least for some. Some other person's escape could be going to a ball game.