CD a "fetish"? "Autogynephilia"? What's the big deal?

[Rachel E Lee]

On this forum and others, I've seen CD's get upset when CD is described as a "fetish" or a "paraphilia". OK, here's my take on this:

The incidence of "fetish" behavior in the general population is close to 100%. In the final analysis, a "fetish" is anything which 1) causes sexual arousal and 2) Does not lead directly to the main reason sexual contact exists, which is reproduction (no, I didn't say is the ONLY reason for sex, but sex does facilitate the continuance of the human species).

You're a man who's turned on by a women with big boobs? That's a fetish.
You like your girlfriend to wear a garter belt and high heels to bed? That's a fetish too.

You're a woman who likes men with beards? Fetish.

You're a man who's aroused by other men's physiques or a woman who likes women's bodies? Thats a fetish too--not that there's anything wrong with that.

There are fetishes that are harmful, pedophilia and non-consentual forced sexual fantasies (that are acted upon) to name just two. But that certainly doesn't mean all fetishes are bad or disgusting.

Most people feel like this: "If I like something out of the ordinary sexually, it's a preference. If you like something out of the ordinary and I can't understand the attraction you have for it, it's a fetish.

I'm talking about CDing here. I realized that transsexuality is a totally different set of circumstances.

What about autogynephilia?

Again, this exists in roughly 100 percent of the female population. Most people who express a feminine side like to fantasize themselves as being a super-hot attractive woman. it's the reason you see nothing but airbrushed photos of physically perfect, provocatively dressed women on the cover of women's magazines. So why shouldn't MTF CD's have some of the same feelings and desires?

"Fetish" and "Paraphilia" are terms used by transphobic people to try and shame those of us who enjoy crossing gender lines occasionally. Don't let these bigots shame you. Be who you are, and realize that your gender/sexual preference is no better or worse than those felt and practices by the vast majority of fellow human beings.

[Nadine Spirit]

My dislike of fetish is the sexual association of it. I think once upon a time I fooled myself into thinking what I was doing was purely sexual and thus I had no problem with referencing what I was doing as a fetish. But now that I am not afraid to acknowledge who I am, my dressing has nothing to do with anything sexual. Thus then to define it as a sexual fetish, or just a fetish, as the term fetish has an inherent sexuality to it, is inaccurate.

[PaulaQ]

The basic problem with the notions of "fetish" or "paraphilia" in CDs / MtF trans women is that this idea was put forward by Dr. Ray Blanchard in a theory of Autogynephilia. This IS NOT the same as women who want to be more attractive. Blanchards ideas are as follows:

1. gynephiliac MtF's fetishize women to the point where they must become them.
2. androphiliac MtF's become women to maximize their chance of having male sexual partners.

Neither of these notions gibes well with stories from many MtF's. (In fact, they are pretty hilariously and obviously wrong when you talk with many of us.) Ray Blanchard's theories just flat out suck - they inaccurately describe the MtF population, and try to correlate gender with sexuality when it is fairly obvious no such correlation exists. In the end, it doesn't even end up recommending anything different in terms of treatment - the best treatment for autogynephiliac MtFs is still transition.

The types of "fetishes" you describe are pretty minor, and unlikely to cause any significant dysfunction in a person's life. Generally, when people talk "fetish", they are talking about stuff then almost MUST HAVE in order to achieve sexual gratification.

Also Blanchard's theories really don't explain why estrogen helps out "autogynephiliac" MtF's, while it would cause dysphoria in the rest of the cis-gendered male population. If AGP MtF's are really just men (which is what his theories assert), then why does physical medicine with female hormones alleviate the problems of GD in so many MtF's?

[Wildaboutheels]

Words or terms are meaningless. WHY most men put on female clothing items IS pretty clear cut and obvious. The numbers all over this site along with the majority of pics posted here CLEARLY support it. Not to mention all those "other" CD sites.

Anyone with an open mind realizes how dressing "ends" for probably 95% of all MtF. Although a check of ages here along with posts give a clear indication that Os are usually replaced with "fuller" dressing after 50 ish for the vast majority here.

Pavlov and his whistle...

[Katey888]

Rachel - I'm not upset by your assertion - but then I represent your remark! And I said just what you said about breast, and high-heel, etc. fetishes in a recent post. I think the problem arises when somebody tries to formulate a subset or generality of the entire CD spectrum, and then - understandably - those who don't fit the parameters become vocal about their differences.
Even if you were to zoom in on, say, a couple of folk here who accepted they CDed for sexual ends, that they both followed the same pattern of dressing, being in the closet, blah, blah - eventually, you come to a difference.
Why can't we just accept that, like guys who like sex (I guess the majority... ) we all like it a little differently. How differently? PM me and I might give you a clue...
Katey x

[Lucy_Bella]

I personally believe that few here continue to miss understand the difference between Fetish Dressers and GID ..Many may believe the theory for fetishism as false because it doesn't suit them..What many seem to omit is Gender Identity is a completely different theory and has nothing to do with fetishism..

[Ressie]

From what I remember a fetish would be sexual arousal with an inanimate object which wouldn't include any part of the human body.

If boobs turn me on, it's not a fetish.
You're a woman who likes men with beards? Not a fetish.
You're a man who's aroused by other men's physiques or a woman who likes women's bodies? Not a fetish.

Aroused by feathers = fetish

[PaulaQ]

Lucy, I find the theory of fetishism is questionable with respect to gender presentation because it replaces one term for something we don't understand with another term for something we don't understand, both of which have highly similar symptoms, and yet are different for reasons that always seem to involve arm waving. GD sufferers masturbate too, especially early on.

Since the two conditions appear to be indistinguishable in terms of diagnosis, or progression until after the fact, I tend to question that they are in fact different at all. Particularly when the primary motivation for identifying as a fetish dresser seems to be to avoid the notion that something's going on with your gender, which is, of course, a terrifying assertion for any of us.

In my experience, explanations that serve no purpose other than to make you feel better about yourself just tend to not be true. Sorry.

[Lucy_Bella]

Since the two conditions appear to be indistinguishable in terms of diagnosis, or progression until after the fact, I tend to question that they are in fact different at all. Particularly when the primary motivation for identifying as a fetish dresser seems to be to avoid the notion that something's going on with your gender, which is, of course, a terrifying assertion for any of us.

In my experience, explanations that serve no purpose other than to make you feel better about yourself just tend to not be true. Sorry.

Again ,you are only diagnosing the " Theories " simply based on your own experience ..I do not in any way doubt Gender Identity or the theories based on GID.. I can ,however , tell you with no doubt in my mind I feel 100 percent male and have zero desire to become or live my life as a female..My dressing is 100 % fetish..Have your theories and paint us all with them, that's fine I do not care ..But until we can all agree that cding can happen for multiple reasons and not just one we will never be fully understood..

As for Fetishes that the O.P. mentioned.... Yes real boobs ( the one men so desire) can be a fetish ( because they are not real for most men to naturally have).. The
clothing is also a fetish as well as the emulation to resemble female only in appearance for the fetish dressers not folks with GID .For most of them it's part of life and a natural feeling with little or NO sexual desire ..

As for going through GID..It doesn't have to be a terrible thing to go through once you accept and understand what is going on and learn how to handle it with professional help if needed.. Correct most all of the spectrum goes through the typical Fetish phases with sexual pleasure through CDing and there could be many reasons that explain why ,one would be confusion or the lack of not understanding totally ones self..Those who do finally get a clue tend to move forward leaving the fetish element behind..

[PaulaQ]

Lucy, I'm not diagnosing you nor anyone else, nor do I doubt for a moment that you feel 100% male, and have no desire to be female.

I'm simply saying that many of us who ultimately transition say those very words, and exhibit virtually identical behavior to yours. (In fact, through my life, I dressed SUBSTANTIALLY less fully than you do in your avatar - generally just stockings or pantyhose before realizing I was trans. I didn't fully dress until the month before I came out to myself.) I know a lot of "fetish dressers" who are women now. Sorry, but it's the truth.

I'm fine if you want to call yourself a fetish dresser - but there isn't anything you can really say about yourself that we can observe from the outside that indicates you won't end up being TS, other than probability - it's still quite a low order of probability that you actually are TS.

My point is that your only evidence for how you identify are your own assertions about your mental state - and people are notorious for lying to themselves and others. Your description of your motivations as "fetish" serves not much purpose - it certainly doesn't predict what will happen to you in my experience, and in the experiences of any number of other women I know. It's only purpose is to make you feel better about what you are doing. Indeed, if Ray Blanchard is right, what you are doing as a fetish is a precondition to BEING a MtF TS.

I'm just trying to say that you are on thin ice - you are saying stuff because it makes you feel better. Hopefully you are correct, and there is some distinctive difference between what you do, and what I did, that assures you don't suffer the same fate I did. But as of now, we can't really say what that would be, although since there are way more CDs than TSs, there must be something. We just don't have a test for it, or a diagnosis that is in any way predictive of your future.

BTW, I'm sorry to suggest such an unpopular idea - because I completely understand that it is QUITE uncomfortable to most on this forum, and their spouses. I DO NOT think you are all a bunch of closet case transsexuals! Quite the opposite. I'm simply saying there isn't any way to tell, and saying there is right now is mostly invoking the power of wishful thinking and the laws of probability.

[Lucy_Bella]

Paula,

Please , I am not brand new at CDing in fact I have done it my whole life and I am now at the age that if those trans desires were ever there then they sure should be here by now.... They are not as I think many who have transitioned were the ones who were in denial or the liars as you put it..

Cross Dressing is today and has always been in my opinion miss understood due to those who are in denial ,those who are not honest with themselves and others.. I just so happen to be too honest when discussing the issues of Cross Dressing and the many spectrum's that go along with it.. Up until recently a "Fetish Dresser" on this site was considered impossible and the ones who were in denial..

I find that to be far from the truth in fact I find it totally offensive that many here doubt our existence and we are only going through a stage based only from what they went through themselves.. It's wrong for the community to doubt all reason for cding imagine if Fetish dressers doubted your reason how would you feel? Bad enough that the General Public doubt's us as a whole but to have it coming from within our own community?

[Wildaboutheels]

"In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 235 already displayed.
If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included."

THIS ^^^ is what you will get on page 23 if you use GOOGLE to search for "Crossdressing Forums".

[Lorileah]

when I was a TA for human sexuality, a "fetish" was something that was required to reach sexual arousal. Or it was a small inanimate totem used to bring good luck.

Let's agree that there are people here who are fetishists, there are people here who are just more comfortable in the clothes and sex isn't on the table, and there are those who have GID. K?

[PaulaQ]

Lucy, I'm not denying that there are cross dressers who'll never transition, for whom such an option simply isn't on the table, and for whom it would be TOTALLY the wrong thing to do. You assert you've done this your whole life. Great - I did too. I started transition at 50. Perhaps you are older than I am. How would one objectively look at the two of us, and decide the difference?

That's all I'm really asking. What tells us you are a fetish dresser as opposed to my being a transsexual if we look back at our lives several years in the past?

If you'd told me 4 years ago that I'd be living in the gay part of Dallas, in a lesbian relationship with a trans woman, I'd have told you to get off the drugs you were obviously doing. Yet here I am. 4 years ago, I CD'd for "fetish" purposes about once every 6 months or so, if that.

Your apparent mental and emotional stability, BTW, are probably much better indicators that you are "just a CD" than someone with a more serious gender identity issue. (Although again, only you can really know for sure. Everyone I knew was dumbstruck that I'd been considering suicide for months before I came out - no one saw it.)

Let's agree that there are people here who are fetishists, there are people here who are just more comfortable in the clothes and sex isn't on the table, and there are those who have GID.

Sure, I have no doubt of this - it is manifestly and obviously the case. There can really be no sensible argument. The question here is "how do we tell them apart", and I assert, I think with good evidence, that mostly YOU CAN'T until after the fact. I certainly find this to be a scary notion, but I believe it is also the truth. If someone can present a more cogent argument than "I'm SURE it won't happen to me", then I'd love to hear it. Anyway, enough from me.

[Lucy_Bella]

Paula,

First of all, I know you mean well I also know that you are just trying to help by basing the theories from your own experience.. That's not a bad thing you are a good person in doing so..

I am the opposite of you from your story any ways.. Although never in a same sex relationship and never finding the attraction to become in one..That a side, I spent most of my life thinking I was trans because it was the only thing ( that I knew of at the time and before the internet) that explained my desires to dress resembling a female..

I had to force those beliefs upon myself because there was no other logical reason other than those beliefs.. I knew something was wrong with me believing so especially after I educated myself more..I was lacking one major detail ,that being me wanting to be a female.. So why do I dress ? Fetish reasons and it fits me perfect in every explanation as to why I dress..

I feel that those who have transitioned have had clues through out their whole life but for what ever reason fought them maybe in hopes the feeling would go away..Who knows? But for me, I have never had them feelings ever ..When I say I know it would have to come across to those as only taking my word I understand that but there are plenty of signs that only we can go off of and many are not shared honestly with love ones ..So I do see your point..

One would only have to look at the percentage of those who have transitioned and those who have came out of the closet as GID verses those who only use the fetish aspect of female emulation and compare them to get your answer..That has never happened and probably won't until we can be open and honest as to why we do what we do ..

[Michelle789]

Lucy,

Gender stuff is really tricky to sort out. Yes, it's true that many transwomen have had clues their entire lives. Many have had the clues but ignored them or didn't understand what was really going on, and it took years to figure out that those clues were actually clues towards being TS, because many repress it for many years.

Paula, you mentioned that we cannot tell the difference between someone who has AGP and turns out to be TS and one who has AGP but is not TS.

I think it's true that if I'm reading posts of someone who claims to be TF (transvestic fetishist), or are the SO of a CD/TF, or the friend of a closet CD/TF, then there is no way I can know if they are TS or not until after the fact. This is the point of view of someone looking at the TF person from the outside.

Now let's look at the point of view of someone who is TF. Is there a difference in the mind of someone who is strictly TF vs someone who turns out to be TS? We know that a TS ultimately knows they're TS, 100% certainty even after years of being in denial. What about someone who is strictly TF? Can someone know for sure that they're strictly TF, reflect on their past and say there were no signs of being TS and that they're 100% certain about being TF and that they will not need to transition?

Lucy, I will ask you this question. Look back on your entire life. Did you have any clues or hints that you were TS? Did you have any desire to be female? If so, did it cause you any stress or impairment? Ultimately you know the answer about yourself, and yes chances are you're a fetish dresser and not TS, based on probabilities. But I don't know that. You know the answer (hopefully).

I think that's where it's even trickier. It can be tricky for me to tell if you are TF or TS. It can also be tricky you to tell if you are TF or TS.

Btw, it's okay to be a fetish dresser.

[Lorileah]

One would only have to look at the percentage of those who have transitioned and those who have came out of the closet as GID verses those who only use the fetish aspect of female emulation and compare them to get your answer..That has never happened and probably won't until we can be open and honest as to why we do what we do ..

it is impossible. Even if you could use the membership here to do the study, the numbers would never be correct

(and you see Paula got the hint...and let it go)

[Lucy_Bella]

Lucy, I will ask you this question. Look back on your entire life. Did you have any clues or hints that you were TS? Did you have any desire to be female? If so, did it cause you any stress or impairment? Ultimately you know the answer about yourself, and yes chances are you're a fetish dresser and not TS, based on probabilities. But I don't know that. You know the answer (hopefully).

I think that's where it's even trickier. It can be tricky for me to tell if you are TF or TS. It can also be tricky you to tell if you are TF or TS.

Btw, it's okay to be a fetish dresser.

Michelle,

I do believe there are signs that would suggest one being a TF verses a TG or even a TS..From being in this forum as well as other sites the signs have always been under or noses both mentally and physically ...

Although all may start in the same way there are settled changes as we progress to our respected group.. Take me as being a TF for example , I do not in anyway like wearing all of the opposite genders clothing ..I know not un common with the other two groups however... I tend to only wear the opposite genders clothing I find attraction to ( the naughty stuff ) there is the big difference between the groups..That is part of my fetish and as it grows to fully emulating but only in that manner that part does grow but only in an exotic way( never in the way to express as a everyday average female) and not because of the desire to become the opposite gender..

I do not wear the opposite genders clothing I find attraction to because I feel the natural need to do so.. I do not try to blend in with the opposite gender while dressed I would stick out like a sore thumb, although I have had fetish urges to do that but only in a exotic way..In other words my dressing is not to make a statement about who I am ,I do not feel the need to break out and tell the world my dirty little secrets because it's a private matter..

Like I have stated in a previous post..From the start I did have those thoughts I should have been born a female..Only because it was the only logical explanation at the time but I never felt the urges to become one or become one at least full time.. It is true TF's do have urges or fantasies if you will, of being a female but only during the experience but not limited to every occurrence and it's not a common feeling..Thats not saying the TF desires to become that gender because it goes away quickly after gratification.. Strictly the exotic fantasy of the fetish that promotes the desire not a depressing urge of being who you feel you should have been..

[Michelle789]

Thats not saying the TF desires to become that gender because it goes away quickly after gratification..

So are you saying that with a TF, the desire to be female goes away after gratification has been met, while with a TS the desire to be female is there constantly or regularly?

[Lucy_Bella]

NO.... Not in anyway am I saying that..What I am saying is the desires are for a completely different reason .. One may feel the gender is who they should have been while the others ( being a TF ) it is completely sexual or being that of a sexual object.. BTW sexual isn't always running straight out of the gate ..It may start out that way but as we age it becomes a much longer experience many TF's find ways to add to the sexual experience to help intensify the experience .. .Like adding wigs. breast forms or even make-up my question is , when does a TF finally climax is there ever an end to the growth?

[NathalieX66]

My gender identity sits squarely in the middle . It feels like a see-saw.

I also have fetishes too. It feels nothing like my gender see-saw.

I can only speak for myself, and this body and brain I live in. I'm just me.

[Michelle789]

From the start I did have those thoughts I should have been born a female

I was lacking one major detail ,that being me wanting to be a female..

Lucy,

1. Are these statements a contradiction?

2. Did you ever have any other reasons, aside from sexual or being an object, to be female? Social role? Being able to cry or be vulnerable without ridicule? Being able to express emotions other than anger without ridicule or people thinking you're gay? Not having to be strong and decisive? Not having to "suck it up"? Being asked out on a date rather than having to be the one to do the asking out? Deeper connections with people? Being more emotionally invested in a relationship? Being more sensitive than most men? Or fundamentally identifying as a woman or with women?

Everyone,

What about people who dress for fetish reasons, dress for non-fetish reasons, and show non-clothes related cross-gender expression? I don't care about sexual orientation here.

I know Blanchard divided TSes up into two types, and the two types according to him do not overlap, so if Blanchard is right, it is not possible to be both TF and show cross-gender expression that is not related to clothing (e.g. mannerisms, speech, personality, feelings). And certainly according to Blanchard your sexual orientation is tied down to which of his two types you are.

I have fetish dressed in the past. I have dressed for non-fetish purposes too. I have shown cross-gender expression (mannerisms, speech, personality) that has got me mistaken for being gay by others. I am more oversensitive than most men. So I thought I was a fetish-dresser, cross-dresser, and sensitive male, up until fairly recently when I started praying to God that I would be killed in some accident and be reincarnated as a female. In fact before I came to this forum, I spent a lot of time researching fetish dressing, non-fetish cross-dressing, sensitive males, and transsexuals.

Also although I've been aroused by things like pantyhose, I do not get aroused for feeling like I'm female on the inside. I do not get aroused every time I relate to a female fictional character on TV, movies, or books. I do not get aroused by feeling deeply connected to other people. I do not get aroused when someone says I'm gay. I did not get aroused four years ago when a girl put lipstick on me in front of 10 other people, but I enjoyed it and it felt right. I didn't get aroused when I started wishing I was dead or to be reincarnated as a girl.

Oh, and I had a freak out moment when I saw a documentary about Susan Stanton transitioning, and had this moment where I literally freaked out and thought I might somehow end up transitioning someday. It literally scared the [language] out of me.

[Lucy_Bella]

Lucy,

1. Are these statements a contradiction?

2. Did you ever have any other reasons, aside from sexual or being an object, to be female? Social role? Being able to cry or be vulnerable without ridicule? Being able to express emotions other than anger without ridicule or people thinking you're gay? Not having to be strong and decisive? Not having to "suck it up"? Being asked out on a date rather than having to be the one to do the asking out? Deeper connections with people? Being more emotionally invested in a relationship? Being more sensitive than most men? Or fundamentally identifying as a woman or with women?.

No they are not contradicting .. I explained ( or I thought I did maybe not as well ) that at that time there was no internet and it was the only logical reason to explain my dressing desires.. I knew something was wrong because I did not have any urges to become the opposite gender..So it was a stereo typical thought that had me confused from the start.. Why was I doing this ? Searching for ways to justify my behavior as tho I wasn't losing my mind..The shoe didn't fit until I finally put it together..You DO NOT have to have GID or desires to become a full time female to emulate them ( or wear items of female clothing ) ..It can be for some a fetish issue and I know for a fact it is for me..

So it makes sense to me now looking back "thinking " that I should have been born a female because of my occasional behavior ..The only difference was "thinking" and not knowing .. I.E. I had to force that thought it was in no way a natural thought..

Oh, and to answer the other half of your question, maybe as a child I was all the above to some point but not entirely up until puberty.. Since puberty I have surpassed all of that and grew into a very masculine average male,I do not think that is unusual .. I have not found myself being any of the above to my knowledge how ever I have feminine posture at times that are very noticeable while dressed but have never been brought up in anyway while drab..

[Michelle789]

Lucy,

Are you saying the difference between a TF and a TS is?
* the TF has no desire to actually be a full-time female, but would like to emulate one from time-to-time, usually for sexual gratification
* the TS has a desire to actually be a full-time female, and emulates one because they believe that's who they truly are (whether emulating one is through clothes, behavior, or both)

Everyone,

Can a TS start out having no actual desire to be a female as a kid, and end up transitioning at 45 or 60? Does this desire to be female from childhood actually separate TF from TS, with TF being no desire to be female, and TS desire to be female? I emphasize "be" vs "emulate" here.

[Lucy_Bella]

Michelle,

Yes I am saying that exactly .. Except a TF has zero desires to become a "gender" opposite of what they were born as..Now allow me to make this clear before you hold me to this..Most all of the spectrum goes through the TF phase so in a sense we are all a TF first..Fair to say? But as many progress through the the TF phase and in finding their respectful group ,being TS OR TG they have found their spot in the spectrum ..Some may leap past TG and go straight to TS everyone is different..

But to be TF only, you can not have the urge to be a gender opposite born as in way of living but it does occur in the sexual aspect of the fetish but only as an object..If you have desires to become a gender opposite other that born as for NO sexual reasons..You are GI ( keep in mind TGs can have TF as well)..

So in saying that my Cross Dressing is a sexual fetish ..Why because I am attracted to the clothing and I am attracted to the emulation both in a sexual way..Not because I want be a female or I have a urge to live as one or feel I am trapped in the wrong body..