The love that dare not speak its name…

[Katey888]

There have been a large number of threads exploring sexuality and its interaction with gender, and particularly around the gay/ straight perspective but one question remains to me that perhaps some of the more experienced and socially interactive girls here would be prepared to comment on?

As a hetero guy, I can appreciate and often be aroused by a beautiful girl and everything that goes with that image: clothing, heels, perfume, hair, makeup – everything for me plays a part.

As a CDer, I can appreciate the process that goes into creating a beautiful girl, and everything that goes with that…. as above.

How would a typical, hetero CD male respond to another, CD male, presenting as a beautiful woman if (for example) it was known they were GM; or… what if you didn’t know?

Does anyone have any perspectives from actually being in a person-to-person or social interaction with another CDer and knowing or not knowing, and what did you feel? Has it changed your perspective on sexuality or gender?

I’m hetero, but I’m curious… Katey x

[Beverley Sims]

I have presented to people that know me at parties and they are nervous after seeing me for a while and the joke is over.
They want me to change back. Most grow used to the transformation over the evening.
Of course I do get a lot of interaction as a girl.
The better I look the better the interaction.
There are a few diehards out there, so I treat them gently.

[Jaylyn]

I love the title you gave this thread. All I can really say is I am very much a male that just enjoys dressing from time to time... ( about every chance I get). I have seen many cd's on here that are drop dead beautiful and I don't think in my mind that they are male. I enjoy their beauty and just enjoy admiring it. I can not deny though that a few times I have wondered what it would be
Ike to be enjoying a meeting with another CD even to just go out to a club and let the chips fall where they might . I really don't think I would want any sexual activity from another guy but when some on here are so dang cute. How can a normal male not wonder. I need to laugh at my self for even thinning such a thing but it has occurred that what are the CDs feeling that I may never experience for those that are truly bi sexual.... I know I would love seeing two women together sexually but have had fleeting thoughts of CDs.

[Janet Bern]

I guess it would only be curiosity. We think we all look pretty passable.
So I would like to see if they actually ARE passable. Also, I am not sure
If I have ever seen a CD shopping so maybe there are many out there and
I just don't notice them. That would help me feel mor confident.

[PaulaQ]

@Katey888 - would my experiences be appropriate to relate in this thread? I'm trans, not a CD but I'm dating another pre-op trans woman. If you are only interested in CD perspective, I don't want to disrupt your thread.

[mikiSJ]

typical, hetero CD male

...thought that was funny, sorry!

[Katey888]

@Katey888 - would my experiences be appropriate to relate in this thread? I'm trans, not a CD but I'm dating another pre-op trans woman. If you are only interested in CD perspective, I don't want to disrupt your thread.

Paula - thanks for asking, I thought you'd have a view - I'd like to just keep this perspective to those that at least believe themselves to be 'normally hetero' unless you've got any relevant experiences from the time when you still thought you were? They would be relevant.

I can not deny though that a few times I have wondered what it would be like to be enjoying a meeting with another CD even to just go out to a club and let the chips fall where they might . I really don't think I would want any sexual activity from another guy but when some on here are so dang cute. How can a normal male not wonder. I need to laugh at my self for even thinning such a thing but it has occurred that what are the CDs feeling that I may never experience for those that are truly bi sexual.... I know I would love seeing two women together sexually but have had fleeting thoughts of CDs.

Jaylyn - thanks for being open and honest with all this - I suspect a lot here may empathise, I know I do.

...thought that was funny, sorry!

Yep - got me there! Use of an all-encompassing, non-explicit, generality - how typical of me!
For typical read; 'Real World Typical' - that would be, Daily Mirror readers in the UK, USA Today in the US (probably get some comments on that too )

[nethiker55]

Well Katey;
I would say to you That I have wished for a long time to meet another CD and would love getting to know her in as many ways as is possible.
I personally have made no qualms here as to the fact I have explored sexuality from both sides and while I prefer GG's I have explored my other side.
I am also a student of history and I can tell you that until the church catholic came to power as the "Holy Roman Empire" it was commonly accepted for both sexes to enjoy the company of both sexes with no stigma.
I read somewhere once a writer ask if it did not seem foolish to ignore the possibility of sex and or love with half of the worlds population simply based on plumbing
I say follow your heart and enjoy whatever comes along

[laciewhite]

oooh katey i think you know that this is a can of worms for me. yes i consider myself heterosexual and have never had any sexual contact with another man, whether presenting as male or female...but, boy, i have thought about it a lot!! and i think if i wasn't in a long-term relationship with a GG i would have cracked and explored this side by now.
consider me 'very curious' about going 'girl-on-girl' with another CDer...(assuming i found her attractive, of course!)

[Kate Simmons]

I always know who a person is when I interact with them. If I happen to be attracted to that person, the look and clothing rarely, if ever, has anything to do with that attraction.

[DonnaT]

Many times people instantaneously find themselves attracted to another person. There's nothing you can do about that instant attraction. How you act on it, however, is something you can control.

[Rhonda Jean]

I think this is a quickly evolving issue. There are more boys presenting as girls now, whether they're CD TS or whatever. They're starting younger, they're prettier, and more public. They're supported by their families and friends and are the beneficiaries of (limited) legal protection. Far from universal acceptance, but far ahead of where it used to be.

I saw a thing a while back about the young ts who was on Barbara Walters when she was like 6. She's now old enough to start dating (boys). About 13, I think. She and her parents were discussing how she should deal with the "tell - don't tell" thing. Whew! Hard to believe that anyone who goes to school with her doesn't already know her story, but still.

Fact is, it's becoming more and more the case of sometimes you just can't tell. I can't comment on how the "typical, hetero CD male" would react. That ship has sailed!

[Ineke Vashon]

My thinking, down to basics perhaps, is that, no matter how perfectly presented as female and in a female "package" if you please, a CDer is still a man. Never mind perfume or scents. I've had enough teachers, instructors, professors lean over very close, or sharing a map in close company, and, frankly, there's yet a male who's breath I find even remotely pleasant. On that thought alone I'd avoid a physical contact. Does this makes sense?

Ineke

[kendra_gurl]

How would a typical, hetero CD male respond to another, CD male, presenting as a beautiful woman if (for example) it was known they were GM; or… what if you didn’t know?

Does anyone have any perspectives from actually being in a person-to-person or social interaction with another CDer and knowing or not knowing, and what did you feel? Has it changed your perspective on sexuality or gender?

Katey I have been out and had other CD's want to become sexual with me. That is just of no interest to me at all no matter how amazing they themselves look. First off I have never ever seen a CD or even a TS for that matter that even came close to the TOTAL PRESENTATION of GG. I'm not saying they don't look great or sexy but all I've ever met just act differently than women. I'm just saying I am Heterosexual so I would have to be totally fooled by them to be sexually attracted and that would be very difficult to do.

Has it changed my perspective on sexuality? Yes very much so. I now know there are lots and lots of hetero males (some who cd and some who don't) who really do not consider themselves anything but hetero as long as they are with someone who looks feminine above the waist.

In my opinion these men are bi sexual and just trying to rationalize to themselves they are still str8.

[franlee]

I couldn't come close to writting my feeling on this post as well as Kendra-gurl just did. This has been a great eye opener in regard to simularities for the most of us.

[Gillian Gigs]

Yea, I like what Kendra-gurl says.

Cd'ers are like having "a reasonable facsimile", (fax) if you are observant, you can see the flaws. Sorry not the same as the orginal. I'm only interested in the orginal, but I do fax myself occasionally. Not a good copy either, lol.

[susan54]

Now that I have been around for a few years and had a few good relationships, I feel I can express a view here. I spend most of my free time in skirts or dresses but am totally hetero. I have been known to pass as a woman but probably don't most of the time. However, women (who know I am male) keep telling me I look great, have a fantastic figure and they would kill to have my legs. Looking great dressed as a woman is an illusion. Being dressed to the nines in a dress and heels is an illusion whether it is a man or a woman in the clothes - in both cases it is temporary. What is real is the person, and so far in my life all the attractive people - in terms of personality - have been genetic women. It is not clothes or appearance - being a woman is much, much more than that. Without getting into the TS side of this (it is a separate issue) women are different, in the nicest possible way, and clothes just make them even nicer - but they are nice however they are dressed.

[Mink]

fantastic post, susan!

anywho i feel sometimes i'm way less bi than some of the guys here but then way more bisexual than your average joe... as one lady put it i'm not "cookie cutter straight!" even if i'm leaning wayyyyyyy more towards women ... i always wondered what a relationship would be like with a fellow cd'r ... someone who "GETS" it... and me! ... totally! ... it would be quite the thrill... after VERY limited experiences with women... and even less with men (which has just happened recently!) ... i feel like the CD is an untapped possibility ... but like many here i'm the type that likes to just kinda let things happen... see where the wind takes or blows me!

i would def. not be against the idea of growing old with another guy who digs what i do too! ...

[Katie Russell]

Hi Katey

Thought you might like to read the following thread. A lot of interesting debate.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...cross-dressers

Katie

[Teresa]

Hi Katey.
You may have seen the Ladyboys series on UK tv it featured two English guys engaged to ladyboys. The guys claimed they weren't gay and saw them as perfect women, they ticked all the right boxes but I felt they were totally blind to their gender.

[Katie Russell]

Hi Teresa

I don't think that they were blinded to their gender (feminine) but their sex (female). In my previous reply I attached a link to a previous thread on the subject which got into the difference between gender and sex. Most of the ladyboys had been taking hormones from an early age so their appearance was very feminine. The only difference being that they still had male genitalia. The aim of most of the ladyboys was to complete the whole process and have the sex change operation.

The question is that is a guy dating a pre-op ladyboy gay and post-op straight?

Katie

[Marcelle]

Hi Katey,

Always such thought provoking threads. Well, I can't say I have had experience with meeting other CDs to that degree but have met a few who are stunning and very femme. Now I am a hetero guy and love women as you say clothing, heels, perfume, hair and make-up. But those are exterior trappings designed to attract much the way a guy might put on shirt that compliments his upper chest and biceps before going to a bar. In both cases the person is presenting the gender appropriate to their sex (masculine - male, feminine - female). As a hetero man, I would be attracted to a (feminine - female). So what happens when a hetero man runs into a (feminine - male or CDer)? Well, if she is stunning (let's face it as guys we are initially attracted to beauty and anyone who says not me I'll call BS) he is quite likely to process feminine-female. However when he discovers "dude looks like a lady" he may run for the hills (probably in most cases this is how the scenario plays out).

The thing you have not touched on is the person's inner being. If the hetero guy does not short circuit and gets to know the lady in question and finds a kindred soul the relationship may blossom. Is he no longer hetero at that point? Possibly but if he is truly processing "feminine" (sex aside) and sees her as a soul mate to share, love and laugh then the extension (sexual contact) is merely an expression of that love and he could still be hetero. Specifically, if he was afforded the opportunity to cheat on his lady love CD gal with a handsome man (masculine - male presentation) he may not do so because he does not process feminine.

Ah sexuality and confusion . . . so much fun.

Hugs and thanks for the post it was a great one to make you think.

Isha

[Katey888]

Thanks all of you for responding - just a few quick comments

There are more boys presenting as girls now, whether they're CD TS or whatever. They're starting younger, they're prettier, and more public. They're supported by their families and friends and are the beneficiaries of (limited) legal protection. Far from universal acceptance, but far ahead of where it used to be.

Rhonda - I agree. There is a continuing swell of liberality that I can sense and these perspectives are becoming more widespread - barring any extremist backlash, I can only see that continuing.

I've had enough teachers, instructors, professors lean over very close, or sharing a map in close company, and, frankly, there's yet a male who's breath I find even remotely pleasant.
Ineke

Ineke - that's interesting... I wonder if there's a real, physiological difference there? Perhaps up close we respond subconsciously to pheromones as well as halitosis..?

Has it changed my perspective on sexuality? Yes very much so. I now know there are lots and lots of hetero males (some who cd and some who don't) who really do not consider themselves anything but hetero as long as they are with someone who looks feminine above the waist.

Great points Kendra - thanks. The more I think about this and see what other folk have experienced the more I have begun to appreciate sexuality and gender as a continuum and not a binary, or ternary, spectrum.

Looking great dressed as a woman is an illusion. Being dressed to the nines in a dress and heels is an illusion whether it is a man or a woman in the clothes - in both cases it is temporary. What is real is the person, and so far in my life all the attractive people - in terms of personality - have been genetic women. It is not clothes or appearance - being a woman is much, much more than that.

Susan - that is a really well made point. How many husbands (and vice versa!) have been hooked by an illusion only to have that dissipate once they've been married for a while. We have an ability sometimes to see things as we want them, rather than as they really are. But isn't that also the secret of some our own alter egos too?

... as one lady put it i'm not "cookie cutter straight!" even if i'm leaning wayyyyyyy more towards women ... i always wondered what a relationship would be like with a fellow cd'r ... someone who "GETS" it... and me! ... totally! ...

Mink - that's a really honest view, thank you. And for me that's also supporting the view of both a continuum of gender AND the fact that real relationships are about more than just physical compatibility.

Katie R - thanks for that link - believe it or not I had searched for topics like this but came up with a blank -I guess I have to improve my search skills - there are a lot of pertinent points on that thread too and makes interesting reading.

Isha - thanks for that further insight around relationships. Reminds that recently a young British athlete (Tom Daley -High diving) came out and revealed that he was in a relationship with another guy but was equivocal about actually being gay. He really focused on the emotional relationship rather than any physical attraction, which supports your final point. And actually that was Wilde's defence (the title line some may have recognised from Lord Alfred Douglas' poem) in that famous court case.

For me, it's just underlined how important it is that we don't jump to conclusions about our own or others sexuality nor expect there to be any answers or blinding insights that provide any definitive categorisation (Ahh.. yes, Mr G, you're a Cat. 3.iv(f) lingerie CDer ... ) - just makes for a more interesting world I suppose - and some continuing headaches for those of us who can't resist thinking about this stuff.

Thanks again girls - Katey x