Giant Step Forward with Spouse

[Helen Grandeis]

So now she is hinting a some type of compromise that would include telling the remaining two adult children. She continues to present her no prisoners attitude. Daily I get that I am not credible when I tell her I love her because if I truly loved her I would give it up. When I offered her a moratorium on "I love you", she declined. Tomorrow we get a regional answer on The Church's position. The regional authority declined to go to SLC HQ but instead provided "words of counsel" that we will hear tomorrow at 2 pm. I pointed out that I have in fact compromised and reminded her that she has never seen me dressed nor has she ever found my clothing nor has anyone we know seen me.

[Eryn]

Helen, honestly, is there any hope for an answer acceptable to you from the church? Even in the extremely off chance that they do, will your wife accept it?

I'm sorry to say it, but from my point of view there is no chance of a compromise here. Your wife is adamant, she respects her pastor more than you, her husband, and it seems that she is playing mind games with you with that "I love you" nonsense. I'm willing to bet that a church probation is in your future since that is the step after "words of counsel."

[marshalynn]

Helen, I believe your mortal soul can only be saved by you if it needs to saved, this is your life, your only life, I would tell my wife, you love her very much and want her to be part of your life, but you are not going to let her tell you how to live it. If she wants to talk to you about ways you can both live your lives together and be happy that would be wonderful. you do not need some out side person dictating how you live _YOUR LIFE_!!!. this is your choice not any other persons.... Marsha

[LovelyGeek]

If going to a post-secondary religious school, being ordained, and living life has taught me anything..... it is that i don't like the institutionalized church. It is all about money, politics, and BS. I would recommend some non-religious counseling for your wife.
Much blessing!
-CJ - the cross-dressing reverend.

[Caden Lane]

Helen, I agree with Eryn, Lynn and lovely geek. And I suspect her"compromise" of telling your children is really her hope of gaining additional people on her side of the issue, or shaming you into stopping.

As for church probation and words of counsel, it only reaffirms my beliefs about the LDS. I would not put ANY weight or bearing on what the "church" says. I firmly believe that they have no vested interest in your life. Your wife assesses too much value on their opinions. But I suspect because it suits her purposes. I hate to be blunt, but I think you should give up hope on a true compromise. It does not sound as though she will ever waiver from her present course.

[Helen Grandeis]

I was clueless what to expect and had only anecdotal input from this forum and an LDS TG forum. Both the Bishop and the Stake President (think diocese) are family friends of long standing and men of great kindness. The Bishop has a real family and not a fairy tale LDS family.

1. Cross dressing is not a major offense that requires a disciplinary council (ex communication or disfellowship), revocation or denial of a temple recommend or restriction from taking the sacrament. My member status is therefore full fellowship and full privileges.

2. The Bishop started to refer to cross dressing as a sin. I corrected him and stated that he had not established that cross dressing was a sin. He accepted my point of order.

3. He encouraged me to support my wife and use my free will not to CD. I thanked him for his time and caring and told him that I was not going to embrace his advice. I reiterated my commitment to not CD in my wife's presence and to not let it impact our time together - i.e. I will only CD during time that is not OUR time. This actually leaves a lot of time and many days and weeks of business trips.

4. I expressed my support for his meeting with my wife as she feels necessary but stated that I felt my business with the process was done. I expressed my willingness to resume discussions with him should my treatment of my wife be found to be lacking. He found that to be satisfactory. I left. My wife spent another 20 minutes with him and left.

5. In the meeting my wife said she was going to stop trying to be my mommy. She was going to let me choose for myself and she was going to stick by me. She also is done with the bishop for now. Surprisingly, she hit it off well with the lay counselor from my Employee Assistance Program.. This counselor has empathized with her feelings about my cross dressing and is going to help her deal with those feelings.

6. In short my wife was relieved to learn that within her narrow frame of reference, my soul or church membership or church standing was not in jeopardy. She mused out loud that perhaps I should go to Tri Es meetings - that was a shocker.

All in all a very good outcome that removed the necessity of my leaving the church. My wife and I sat next to each other and held hands. She was gravely disappointed that I didn't drink the Kool aid that was offered but recovered nicely. The Bishop expressed his love for us and for the kindness of my heart.

Note this is a local / regional determination and is not guaranteed to be exactly the same in all areas. However, it is consistent with my informal research.

[Caden Lane]

Here is to hoping it's not smoke and mirrors or some sort of subterfuge. I must say, I'm distinctly surprised by the "church" response.

[Helen Grandeis]

I didn't burden you with the whole response which started,"God does care how you dress". He then referred to our youth standards pamphlet which the youth carry around with them to remind them of their standard in dress, music, moral (sex) behavior. I countered with, "I don't dress like a skank. I always strive for a classy, appropriate appearance."

This morning my wife brought up going to the femme-in support group meetings in Grand Rapids vice being in public that is fact her proposal that I never, ever be out in public or even in the hallways or common area of a hotel or resort. In other words I would go to a small conference room, change in the bathroom. Spend two or three hours dressed and then change back, travel en drab and then arrive home.

[Katey888]

Dear Helen,

I feel really awkward contributing to this discussion because of the embedded church aspect... I realise we're fortunate (to a larger degree, anyway) here as our church entities are on the whole a little less prescriptive - but this whole conversation seems ultimately to be heading at some time (whether with your wife, church or both...) to a head on collision where no compromises are possible. In my experience, this is the nature of religion and some people.

Your wife seems to be a stage beyond just controlling this aspect of your life - she almost seems to be actively searching for a trigger that will result in a circumstance where it is impossible or impractical to achieve compromise, although I hope for both your sakes that is not the case. The idea that you can exercise 'free-will' for something that we all understand is irrepressible also speaks of ignorance of the seriousness of gender variance issues. But I suppose not vastly different to the idea of exorcising epileptics! Perhaps it's possible to at least have them (the church folk) consider the possibility that your condition is not something that can be supressed?

I have a real fear this is heading to a place where your needs are going to end up as mutually incompatible with the demands of your wife, and the more subtle directions of your church. I hope that isn't the case, but if I were you, I'd be considering a Plan B and whatever that might entail, for your own peace of mind and personal stability.

Good luck!

Katey x

[Helen Grandeis]

The church is pretty much out of it for now. She has learned that my membership, participation and eternal prospects are not threatened. She will now allow Helen to exist conceptually. Now her goal is to totally restrict Helen's exposure and expression to travelling to a remote location, within the protected environment emerging and then completely en dab for the departure home.

Many people on the forum don't get out at all even to support group meetings. But it seems like going to an internment camp. Its hard to put the genie back in the bottle. She just is counting on a massive catastrophic outing with coverage on ABC, NBC and of course BBC America and a viral posting on Facebook or U-Tube. She won't believe how unlikely this is to happen. Her big line you expect me to give up everything and you give up nothing.

[Eryn]

And what exactly is she giving up if you go out in public dressed in a distant community? She won't even know about it!

It seems the central issue is control. Her image of her perfect marriage has been marred by a husband who doesn't conform to her imagined image. She attempted to correct this by bringing the church into it. Since they essentially said that your CDing isn't a church issue (which is a big surprise to me) your wife needs another weapon. Demanding unreasonably strict boundaries seems to be her immediate strategy and there is still the threat of outing you to family.

I really wish that these intolerant spouses could have the opportunity to talk to real-world spouses of CDers. Yes, their life may be different with an active CDer around but that doesn't mean that it will be worse. Instead, these spouses rely on the expertise of religious figures and friends who know absolutely nothing about gender issues beyond what they see on TV. It's no wonder that many of them draw lines in the sand with "My Way or the Highway" intolerance. That isn't marriage, it's tyranny.

[Barbra P]

. . . I really wish that these intolerant spouses could have the opportunity to talk to real-world spouses of CDers. Yes, their life may be different with an active CDer around but that doesn't mean that it will be worse. Instead, these spouses rely on the expertise of religious figures and friends who know absolutely nothing about gender issues beyond what they see on TV. It's no wonder that many of them draw lines in the sand with "My Way or the Highway" intolerance. That isn't marriage, it's tyranny.

I really wish these intolerant spouses, and throw in clergy, would talk to Doctors, Therapists, and Counselors who treat patients with gender issues. People trained to recognize and deal with these issues and understand that gender issues are not something that can be turned off like a light bulb.

[Helen Grandeis]

I contemplated her offer seriously for about 15 minutes and then told her we did not have an agreement. I don't know where we are going. I just am stupidly optimistic at every step of the way. She just is wacko about me getting discovered. Four towns away few if anyone knows me. People don't care. My employer was nominated as one of the top 100 LGBT companies - they don't care. The Navy doesn't care. (The church only cares about showing up at church en femme, officiating en femme and worst of all GRS.). A good meeting with the Bishop, but many potholes await.

[MsVal]

I may see things a bit differently. With the tepid acceptance and implicit permission of the church your wife made a concession. When one looks at where she came from, it is a pretty big concession. Helen gets to exist and, within limits, dress. You won't lose salvation or church standing, and with no guilt there will be no guilt by association for your wife.

This is good. It's not everything you would like to have, but it's more than you had, and you can have more in the future.

Own it - Get in front of it - Manage it

Here's my suggestion (I know, you didn't ask for it.):

First, set a date when you two will review the effects that the concession has had on your relationship.
Second, take full advantage of the concession while being careful to demonstrate love, care, and masculinity. Keep a journal.
Next, when the review date comes around there will be no demonstrated reason that the limits cannot be relaxed a little. Negotiate greater flexibility.
Set another date and repeat.

This is NOT guaranteed to work. There are other approaches that may have a greater potential, but I don't know what they are.

Best wishes
MsVal

[Helen Grandeis]

I may see things a bit differently. With the tepid acceptance and implicit permission of the church your wife made a concession. When one looks at where she came from, it is a pretty big concession. Helen gets to exist and, within limits, dress. You won't lose salvation or church standing, and with no guilt there will be no guilt by association for your wife.

This is good. It's not everything you would like to have, but it's more than you had, and you can have more in the future.

Own it - Get in front of it - Manage it

Here's my suggestion (I know, you didn't ask for it.):

First, set a date when you two will review the effects that the concession has had on your relationship.
Second, take full advantage of the concession while being careful to demonstrate love, care, and masculinity. Keep a journal.
Next, when the review date comes around there will be no demonstrated reason that the limits cannot be relaxed a little. Negotiate greater flexibility.
Set another date and repeat.

This is NOT guaranteed to work. There are other approaches that may have a greater potential, but I don't know what they are.

Best wishes
MsVal

Thank you Val. I have a lot to think about. My wife has been beside herself with anxiety and even almost in tears at the final hymn for sacrament meeting. Most people in the forum don't get out or even post pictures. I will try to come up with an agreement that she can live with perhaps in two parts. The first part will never change and the second will be reopened every year.

[mechamoose]

You will always, ALWAYS run into issues when someone relies on what they believe vs what they THINK. I'm sorry for the tough spot you are in, hon

/hugs

- MM

[ReineD]

There is a bit of progress, Helen. This is good news. Your church's stance was a surprise to me as well, and I'm even more floored that your wife suggested a Tri-Ess meeting!!

I know that a lot of us GGs are afraid of many things in the beginning, especially being found out. We had a survey in this forum many years ago (when we had the ability to have formal surveys). It turned out that the wives' greatest fears were of being discovered. They were afraid of job losses, being ostracized by family, friends, and the community, gossip, etc. This is not surprising, really. Most CDers fear the same things for years, sometimes decades, until they accept themselves. And even then, it is extremely fearful for many crossdressers to even step out in public dressed for fear of pitchforks!

The fears dissipate when time proves that no major catastrophe has occurred. I very much like MsVal's suggestions. Your wife will in time see that the quality of her life has not changed, and this is when she will begin to lose her fears.

I also want to add that your wife's fears are even more pronounced than someone who is younger. She grew up in an age when the crossdressing was particularly vilified even without the church's influence.

So please, do continue to be patient with her. She has turned around much more than I would have expected a few weeks ago. This is a good sign. I'm so relieved that her mind is now at rest over your eternal soul.

[Helen Grandeis]

This is going to be a long drawn out battle. Sometimes, my wife will say something very, very considerate like letting me off the hook for a concession I made the previous night, if I appeared to be depressed about it in the morning.

But in spite of a few kind words and evidence thinly scattered that she does love me, she has no use for CD and no respect for any aspect of it. I think I have beaten this horse pretty dead.

Moderators you may close this thread whenever convenient.

M

[Julie Gaum]

Wish that I could disagree with Eryn's viewpoint but, Helen, half your life is over and a rigidly supervised one at that. Laying in front of me is a letter I received from a dear friend and former priest in the Augustinian monastic order after he had read my award-winning memoir that included 80 plus years as a CD. Refering to the fact that he is also a nationally recognized artist he wrote: "I would certainly like to think that I'm a hell of a lot more than this (an artist censored by his Bishop) ... as you are a hell of a lot more than a cross dresser ... so much more." Is your dance to go on for the rest of the time you have left on earth? Think about it before the ravages of age cuts short your options.
Julie

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Helen, You just can't predict how people are going to accept us , just hope for the best.

[ReineD]

Helen I don't blame you for being discouraged. It's been a roller coaster.

[Eryn]

Helen, your wife's actions are very indicative of someone who is manipulative. Having lost the religion gambit she is searching for something else to hold over you in order to force you to do as she desires.

I am very saddened to see this happen and still hope for a good conclusion. It may be time for a serious talk with her concerning her actions against you. She's shown a talent for making demands, perhaps she should show good faith by accepting some limits of her own.

[Claire Cook]

Helen,


I wish I could offer some advice, but I would take to heart what Reine (who often serves as our mother hen -- Reine, no reference to age there!) has said, especially about patience. Understanding a woman's perspective in these matters is important and is sometimes difficult for us. You've had 30 years of what appears to be a solid marriage, and there must be much to value in your relationship.


I'm certainly no religious expert, but if you find a copy of Lacey Leigh's Out and About: The Emancipated Crossdresser, she has an interesting take on the biblical position against crossdressing (Deuteronomy 22:5).

[Sharon B.]

There is one thing I don't understand if you and your wife was celebrating your 30 wedding anniversary why was there a woman friend along with you and your wife? Is there something going on that you aren't telling us about?

[Helen Grandeis]

Lets us just finish by saying that the road ahead is very rough indeed. I will not be airing my laundry here any more but I do appreciate and value your caring and your post.

MODERATOR: Please Close This Thread.