I don't understand how we can treat each other this way

[Princess Grandpa]

Julie and I have met up with a group of sisters here in SoCal. An amazing group of women who immediately accepted us into their midst and made us feel welcome and included. (Despite my social awkwardness.) I just read a post on their Facebook page that I need to discuss.

The woman posting was leaving the group because they are accepting of "non questioning cis-males just because they put on a make up and dress". Without getting into why a Cis-male would put on a dress, suffice it to say, she objects to treating cross dressers as equals. Those of us that self identify male but still need to dress up she feels should not be accepted as sisters.

So my question is how can a group struggling for acceptance be so intolerant within their own community? I have seen similar discussions on this and other forums. It seems to me anytime she is met with intolerance and judgement out in the world, she is only getting what she deserves. That is how she treats others. I know there are some here who would agree with her. I would love to hear how you feel that your views towards those of us that self-identifies male is any different than the way your treated by so much of society? Why should you be accepted for who you are if you refuse to offer the same to the rest of us?

Hug
Rita

[Jaylyn]

For some reason there is always someone every where that can only see with blinders on that let them see straight forward. Some think that their way is the only way and not necessarily what's best for the group. I've noticed in the USA this is really getting to be a problem wether it be politics, social behavior, religion, occupations, where you were raised and the family values instilled by our parents. We have just about reached a revolution status in some of the talk I am hearing on politics. I don't want to make anyone mad but I can't understand why in a supposedly a free society a person can't be who they are and leave the other persons business alone. In your case and our country's case we would be better off if we all could realize we are joined as one in the human race. The minor differences in our behaviors shouldn't be a big deal we are still part of the human race. Color, occupation, wealth, celebrity or a Cross dresser we are all the same. I detest a person that cannot accept another to be a unique person that is expressing themselves the way they want. Each of us are different why the social cliques, those that think they are better than someone else make me want to puke. We all need to be more tolerant with one another, and still keep our common sense about what really matters in our lives. I identify as a male in normal every day life, I have no desire to transition to female. I don't begrudge those that do though or judge them. I just love to dress in soft pretty attire from time to time, don't judge me and I won't judge you as I see it. I hope I didn't cross any lines here.

[Jorja]

You can please some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time. This is a variation of an Abraham Lincoln quote but it fits. Simply wave bye-bye to this lady and do not worry about it. It is her loss. She was probably planning on leaving anyhow. Now she has an excuse.

[sandra-leigh]

I am unclear as to what the purpose of the group is intended to be, and I am unclear about the "non-questioning" bit and about what variety of "sisters" you mean??

The impression I get from your post is that the group accepts transgender people, is perhaps even primarily about questioning gender, and that the "sisters" are transgender to transsexual or gender-queer, possibly together with some non-questioning women? (the last in that you do not mention them objecting to your wife) ?

[stephNE]

I wish we could treat all the little groups as one community.

But I have experienced a similar thing. I used to work in Washington DC in an office that was not far from Dupont Circle, and very popular gay area. Usually at lunch, a number of us would venture to a local restaurant, and we would frequently see crossdressers. One of my coworkers was openly gay, and he made derogatory comments about the CDers (he didn't know I was one). I remember asking him if he realized they were a part of the bigger LGBT community. And he said no, they weren't. He explained he was gay because he liked men - not men pretending to be women.

I sort of think there is strength in numbers, so the bigger our group, maybe the more we can accomplish and be accepted.

[Ria Lynn]

Word of advice then: Don't go on Tumblr. There's a lot of of acceptance and support there, but white-hate, straight-hate, and cis-hate are starting to be a problem if you fall into the wrong crack. Me, I'm there for the nerd fandoms. It boggles me when people want acceptance for who they are but are unwilling to accept others for who they are. It's like a gay person who bashes straights but flips if a straight says anything about them. It doesn't matter if you're repressed, prosecuted, or a minority, prejudice and bigotry are the same no matter who you are. Being faced with prejudice is no excuse to have it yourself. Unless that specific person has done something to you, there's no reason to be like that. I'm bi, and there are those who think bisexuals are just confused or in the closet about being homosexual. No. I find both women and men sexually attractive, have been with both, and enjoyed them equally. Being married to a cross dresser gives me the best of both worlds. The elitism some people have makes me so sad, because people like that hurt their cause more than they help it.

[Katey888]

Like Sandra-Leigh I'm a bit confused about who the 'sisters' actually are.. The fact that they identify you as cis-male implies that they are not... And assuming that to be the case - I agree wholeheartedly with you Rita... I don't understand how folk can be so intolerant other than the usual issues; we're just such a misunderstood group of people! I think it's the complexity that baffles people a lot of the time - we're sometimes gay, sometimes bi, often hetero; some dress for fun, some for sex, some to live, some just to go shopping, some just underdress; some try to pass, some don't bother... I could go on...

Try making sense of all that to someone who's prepared to listen, let alone someone who probably just wants an excuse to be bigoted...

A shame but the group's better off without her...

Katey x

[Kate Simmons]

Sounds like kind of a self centered attitude Hon. I accept everyone for who they are as a person. The only requirement I have for friendship is to always be yourself, regardless of who that "self" may be. I think a lot of it has to do with being a mature person, which evidenty some folks unfortunately lack at being. Hopefully some day she will wake up my friend and maybe be truly happy.

[Barbra P]

Like Sandra-leigh I’m a bit puzzled too. I don’t understand what this group of sisters original mission was/is, why were they founded in the first place? Was this group of sisters a transgender group or was this group genetic-females? What is the primary makeup of this group of sisters, genetic-females, trans-women, or both? If the group has strayed from its original purpose the group may no longer be meeting the needs of this woman, and/or she may not feel comfortable having a cross dressing male(s) in the group. I think we all realize that there may be a few people out there who don’t accept us and don’t feel comfortable being in the presence of trans-gendered people. In some cases this may be due more to ignorance than bigotry.

There have been countless replies recounting how someone who was apprehensive, negative, fearful, non-accepting, and even hostile changed once they got to know and understand more about people who are transgendered. Unfortunately there are too few occasions where we get to educate these people, and many of us don’t have the tools (subject knowledge, personality, public speaking prowess, lack of fear of being us, and most importantly comfort meeting others) to become good educators. Sadly many more of our ranks just don’t care.

I believe technically that once a male puts on makeup and a dress he is presenting as female and therefore no longer cis-male. “Liberace's sequined robes and feather boas might remind us of a drag queen, but he was still a cis male.” Urban Dictionary.

[BillieAnneJean]

Weaker people have an inborn need to discriminate. Those who are strong inside have no need. An example are SOME of the Harly riders discriminate against the people who "ride rice". Odd because some "rice" motorcycles may be built in the USA while some of the parts in their beloved Harleys are imported. SOME power boaters look down on sailors, SOME sailors look down on power boaters. SOME classical music fans look down on rockers. Back in the sixties there were two groups in the UK, the Mods and the Rockers. The Mods wore more preppy clothes, likes motor scooters. The rockers were in to jeans, leather and "real" motorcycles. These groups were made up of young baby boomers with too much money and free time. They would clash even violently, causing significant turmoil in the UK. For what? Just because someone looked different and rode something different? Cars, clothes, even accents are employed as excuses for discriminating against fellow man.
There is a huge difference between what a CDer experiences and what someone changing gender experiences. I can understand a TS person thinking that a CDer hasn't a clue about their ordeal. I certainly can't fathom what thy are going through. I would give every one of them a big hug for their situation.
But those boaters, two wheeled powered vehicle operators, and music fans would be better off if they all pooled their influences. If it disintegrates in to factions, then any group that opposes their needs can control the rules.
We don't necessarily have to be in close contact, but how can we expect the people outside our sector of society, the "normals" to not discriminate against us if we discriminate against each other? That person could have sought out a group of her exact duplicates but she may find some benefit in maintain contact with others who experience some of the similar discrimination from mainstream society.

[Beverley Sims]

I feel the woman wanted to leave and make a political comment at the same time.

There will be dissenters in any group.

Why are there no dissenters here, They have been shown the door.

[arbon]

So my question is how can a group struggling for acceptance be so intolerant within their own community?

Is it really the same community?
The issues of crossdressers and the issues of a transsexual are worlds apart so there is going to be friction between the two.

I like croddressers mostly. But say in a support group their all talking about planning to dress up for an outing, or how to do their makeup, or getting more freedom to dress from their wifes, showing each other pictures of themselves in different outfits.... it does not help me at all. Likewise if the transsexuals are talking about all the crap they are taking at work since transitioning, or try to wade through all the legalities of changing their identity, being rejected by family and friends, how to get the right medical care - thats all stuff that probably is not to important to a male identifying crossdresser.

Its not intolerance but very different needs.

[Princess Grandpa]

To the best of my knowledge there is no mission other than social. The closest I could think of to describe them is sort of like a meet up group only instead of getting together in a hall or something they go out in the community. I would point out that the majority of the girls are TS. But of course I don't really know that. Nobody questioned me on my gender identity or discussed theirs. They just said come and have fun with us.

I don't think that it was me specifically she objected to as much as people like me. I know of several in the group that I believe are CD not TS. There was no mention of discomfort with my wife or the other cis-females in the group. I appreciate all the feedback. I should point out, I'm not hurt or upset by the events. For the first time in my life perhaps I am quite happy with who I am.

I am still hoping to hear from those who agree with this woman. I'm not looking for confrontation but I would really like to understand the thought process that allows for "you must accept me as I am, but I don't accept that group over there."

Hug
Rita

Arbon:

It's not a support group. It's a social group. Yes the challenges you face are nothing like I experience. This means there has to be animosity? What we do have in common is a need/desire to be loved and accepted for who we are. I almost never respond to posts in the TS forums for the reasons you just described. My paradigm of the world and my experiences have little to no context in your daily struggles.

All that being said, while you may see yourself as a different community, society looks down on us all equally. The only difference is we get it within the community too? How is that right? I appreciate your response but I'm really no closer to understanding why a T.S. Should be accepted by society and a CD can't be accepted by the T.S.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying all transsexuals feel this way. I'm merely trying to understand better the ones that do.

Hug
Rita

[GeminaRenee]

Is it really the same community? . . .Its not intolerance but very different needs.

Different needs - fair enough. But it's still intolerance. Ultimately, we are all in this together. There isn't any benefit in a cd pushing a tg away, or vice versa. In the grand scheme of things, we (as in, the cd/tg/ts/dq spectrum) are not in a great place. And I guarantee you that Joe Blow on the street doesn't see someone who is tg any differently as someone who is cd. Hell, it's hard enough to get people to separate the t-community from the non-hetero community. My point is that when we stand together, despite our differences we can do more for the benefit of the trans-universe as a whole. It does no good to reject one sub-group just because her individual needs and concerns are different than mine. Strength lies in numbers, and to facilitate division among the larger group just makes it harder to make a difference in the context of a larger society.

[KaceyR]

That's kind of a question I've wondered on. Maybe in a broader spec I guess though. I mean, I've always been open minded and supportive on GLBT issues as I've had friends on the G+L side for..27 years or more. So lo, CDing expression and my curiosity gets going in Sept and I'm digging up info. And finding out that the T side isn't always liked and some intolerance by some GL's.. (I'd thought about bringing my CDing up to a long L friend until reading about some of this.. One of my G friends knows and has no issues though so it may be a non issue with most and just be more of the exclusivity kind of thing I type more on below).
And then I dig up some CD orgs I find limits placed there (hetero only..once a member goes transitional with HRT or has other sexual prefs they drop supporting her like a hot potato with disdain).

I guess some just can't separate the gender and the orientation...
Or maybe it's too much separation that allows those with a 'superiority' complex to go the way that poster did.
Possibly it's just that posters' nature to try to one-up people a lot in general and it's getting applied to this.

I also could see some psychologically thinking "I'm unique because I CD. One of the rare-ish few. That makes me special" and basically becomes their ego charge. So the others in the group now makes her uniqueness not so special and she can't stand the ego loss. Kind of like goth kids..group starts up. Once too many goth it up, (or vampire it up in the South Park ep ) then they don't feel as unique and feel their goth is 'ruined'.

CDers CD for various reasons, be it full GD, fetish, or just as a way to express and coexist with the other half of self. The 'why' shouldn't be an issue in a CDer group and neither should orientation. If you're wanting to expand people's awareness and acceptance of CD and it's reasons.. Then you need all forms of people standing and helping each other together, and not drive others or themselves back into their closets.

On your entry Jaylyn, I pretty much agree with you. It astounds me how fast and volatile it's all getting nowadays. And a lot seems blindness to logic as well. (Well..with the way science and logic teachings and facts have been attacked and manipulated in schools and propaganda'ed in media, it seems at times US is becoming the land of the absurd...)
Much hype, emotion, and info spread w/o true validation of truths-taken at face value. That's how bad rulers and governments have risen to power elsewhere in the past...and it seems history's repeating itself...just even faster thanks to hi tech. Kind of scary.

[Lillyasia]

Nothing hurts a cause more than a group claiming discrimination, prejudice, or inequality to practice that very same thing. The more factions and divisions, the more the infighting. Look at countries that divide by ethincity, or race groups that divide up into gangs. And now how liberals treat conservatives. It's everywhere, the need to create divisions.

[melissakozak]

Oh boy! In the early 1990's Triess had some serious struggles with membership due to the fact that it self-identified as 'predominantly' heterosexual males who enjoy occasionally dressing in women's clothing as a means for expressing a so-called second self. The history behind this is interesting, and I think its motto and/or manifesto, if you will, was created to make space and comfort for the wives of crossdressers. Those who pursued transition or who were on HRT were not really encouraged to share their particular journey at gatherings, etc. FLASH FORWARD twenty years later. Oh boy! The times have certainly changed. I don't know of ANY TG group that is exclusive, and since our respective gender presentations are on a very fluid scale both in physical transformation, social transformation, etc., there is no motto to live by anymore but the one an individual self creates. Now, in this particular circumstance, I think this kind of exclusion is unnecessary and harmful. We have enough trouble with the gender police in the cis-world attempting to invalidate our existence and make life generally tough all the way around. Too bad. In my inner circle, we have transgender women who are on HRT, some have had SRS, some have done nothing, others a little something, some predominantly identify as men but enjoy occasionally dressing....no one gives a flip HOW we identify or HOW we express our gender variance....we are all just people, and we happen to enjoy each others' company a great deal. Too bad you had this experience....hugs, Melissa.

[samanthasolo]

We all have a common bond in the fact that we dress but when it comes down to each and every individual there will be some similarities and a lot of diffferences when it boils down to how we identify, present, sexual preferences, and mostly OPINIONS! Granted each and everyone of us will not agree when it come to that last point. It is unfortunate that those who live in glass houses and DO THROW STONES are one of the biggest reason why OUR community in general does not get the social acceptance and tolerance that we want and deserve. How can society grant any credibility, tolerance, or acceptance to a community that has those among it that are not doing things to build it from within but instead are creating inner turmoil by being judgemental and critical with opinions that are tearing the community apart within! Opinions and Hypocrisy go hand in hand and when they serve NO GOOD CAUSE they should be kept to the individuals SELF!

[Nicole Erin]

There will be dissenters in any group.
Why are there no dissenters here, They have been shown the door.

Oh I love when that happens here. I remember two in particular. One of them got exposed as a total fake.

The funny thing is that even though some leave their "community" because they feel they are somehow above the rest.
Someone wants to fade out of the picture, that is fine. They should keep their mouths shut because once they start running it, they pretty much burn the bridge on their way out.
They have two illusions going on. One is that they are "trannier than thou" but also they hallucinate that anyone will even care if they leave.

[arbon]

but I'm really no closer to understanding why a T.S. Should be accepted by society and a CD can't be accepted by the T.S.

Ultimately, we are all in this together.

Their are people who are very out and open about who they are, who face the world head on fight to get that acceptance. But most crossdressers don't fall into that group. Most crossdressers I know are not there with me. They are anonymous on forums, and go to the support / social groups once in a while and when they go out in public its to places where people will not know who they are. They are anonymous. There are exceptions, a few open crossdressers, but not very many.

I had to face my whole community where I live and earn peoples respect and acceptance for who I am as a woman. The only other people in it with me were my wife and my daughter. There were no crossdressers there with me. Most transsexuals I know had to do it alone and they are the ones bring about acceptance and opening peoples minds.

I don't look down on crossdressers I'll hang out with you go have fun with you but don't say your in it with me if your living a secret life and not actually doing anything to make the world a more accepting place.


EDIT: I wanted to ask a question.

All that being said, while you may see yourself as a different community, society looks down on us all equally. The only difference is we get it within the community too? How is that right?

If I can ask do you live openly as a crossdressers? If not how do you experience society looking down on you?

[Lorileah]

Oh I love when that happens here. I remember two in particular. One of them got exposed as a total fake.

HEY! I'm still here!

But in RE: OP
This is not an unusual thing among minority groups. The "I am _____er than you are" people. I have the same thing in a club I belong to. To me equality means everyone is equal. For some of the members there is an equality hierarchy. In other words, they say other groups have suffered less than they did in history. From what the OP said I think the person who was leaving thought for some reason it was a TS group and not a TG group (if you have questions on that read the sticky above on common labels). we have the same division here and it raises its ugly head frequently.

[DonnaT]

I appreciate your response but I'm really no closer to understanding why a T.S. Should be accepted by society and a CD can't be accepted by the T.S.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying all transsexuals feel this way. I'm merely trying to understand better the ones that do.

Some who are TG/TS feel that a TG/CD is not a "real" transgender person. This is similar to gays or lesbians who do not accept those who are bi. Bigotry.


In other cases, the TS person is afraid that a CDer in their company, socially, will result in others (cis, i.e., not trans) labeling them (TS) as "men in dresses." Fear.

[samantha rogers]

Arbon, while I certainly see your point about those fighting the public battle and those who are not, there is another facet of this that does bind us all together. Not everyone is able, for whatever reason to be a soldier in that war, but all of us on one level or another do face a struggle for acceptance even if the struggle is only with ourself. We are all part of a gender spectrum. Some are at one end and others at the opposite end. Or, in another way of viewing it we are all at different points on our path. The thing that binds us is the intolerance and lack of understanding we all face in trying to be whole, honest to ourselves, and in finding our place in this unaccepting world. I would think that compassion for each other would be the best course. While I certainly understand that the dialog may be different at different places, and that the pain and rejection may be different, the pain can be just as real regardless. Rejection of others who are different remains the crux of the problem, doesn't it?

[Princess Grandpa]

When we first started working I with individuals living with developmental disabilities we encountered much what your describing Lorileah. The higher functioning individuals would treat the lower functioning cruelly, much as normal society treated them. I was astounded by this but in the end I can see how that comes to be. To find the same things in other places more than shocks me. They have an excuse they are retarded. The rest of us have no such excuse!

Fwiw I have never personally experienced this directed at me. Almost all interactions I have had have been positive. The ladies we meet at the clubs are an amazing group. The majority of the people I encounter on my few public excursions have been upbeat. I can only think of a handful of times things were unpleasant.

You're right Arbon. I'm not out there every day trying to eek out an existence on a day to day basis. Then again not all women were fighting for the right to vote. Not all minorities were out fighting for civil rights. Not every colonist fought for independence. That doesn't make them any less entitled than those that did.

Hug
Rita

[Angela Campbell]

It can work both ways. I am a member of a large Tri Ess group.....the largest one in the USA...the by laws state it is for "heterosexual crossdressers and their spouses". Ok good enough I guess. The thing is there are a good number who are members who do not fit into this category for one reason or another. (gay, TS, not married)

In this group there has been friction against the ts members because they do not fit into the description. Most of the issues begin from a CD's wife. They really do not want any contact between ts and their husband.

Although a few have left the group over this I have stayed. (I am ts and have transitioned) I am somewhat shunned by some members and especially so by the wives. It has caused some to kind of bunch up into groups within the group. The reasons Arbon mentioned have a lot to do with it. The interest of a ts is not going to be the same as the interest of the cd. Sure there are some great friendships there but still many times the separation still exists, and some who are just not going to like the other side.