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Thread: The "man in a skirt" phenomenon

  1. #1
    Member Secret Drawer's Avatar
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    The "man in a skirt" phenomenon

    I want to speak about the “man in a skirt” phenomenon. There is a full range of reactions to what is perceived as a man in a skirt on this site, but many are outright hostile. None the less it is essentially a simple fix!
    Assuming most of us here (considering it is a male to female forum!) are genetic males we naturally understand that not only do we have penises but often male body structure, facial and body hair, male pattern baldness, adams apples, etc. and so on to contend with. However, none of this really matters because as we all already know, GENDER IS BETWEEN THE EARS, NOT THE LEGS! So it doesn't really matter that you have a deep tenor voice, your voice doesn't force you to talk about fantasy sports and eating raw deer liver. Your brain decides what you are going to say.
    In a recent post someone said that they felt disingenuous when they put on makeup and a wig before going out in public because it felt like a disguise. Yet this person prefers wearing women's clothing over mens out in public. Is this a case of a “man” looking to shock or be humiliated publicly? No, it is simply that person happens to have genetically male looking features with a more feminine featured mindset. It would seem that some people (many of us being right here!) are actually not at all “men in skirts.” We are simply more accurately depicting who we are on the inside. It is not my fault that I have male pattern baldness or facial hair or even that I have a penis! I was born with those genes in place, sorry about that!
    Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! While some here prefer the light is on or light is off approach to dressing (all or nothing), others (generally considered gender fluid/ gender queer) have a light that is constantly on the dimmer switch, never really off and rarely fully on either.
    The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.

  2. #2
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    Some TS feel that when a man wears obviously "feminine" clothing and presents as a man it somehow belittles or makes light of those suffering with GID. I don't agree this is the case (some of the closest people in life have been TS and I know the pain they go through, as close as an observer can anyway), and I never, ever would do something I believed would make any of their lives harder) but that is the perception of some.

  3. #3
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    Well put!

  4. #4
    Shoe shopping shrew natcrys's Avatar
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    I have always been a supporter of the idea that everyone should be able to wear what they want. So, if a guy want to wear a dress, but not shave his legs.. or doesn't want to mess around with make-up. Or (dare I say it.. ) doesn't want to wear heels.. all the more power to them!

    For me personally, if I could get away with not wearing make-up.. I'd probably wear much less of it. But my clothing will need to be completely feminine.
    Last edited by natcrys; 03-27-2014 at 07:35 AM.
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  5. #5
    Reality Check
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    If you want to parade around town in a skirt and beard, that's not illegal. It will, however, shock and disgust the majority of the general public. You can say they don't understand you and it may be true but that doesn't change their feelings towards you.

    It's your life and you can live it however you want to (within the law of course). What about your family members? Wife and children? Employer? What you do will affect them.

  6. #6
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    I agree it's well put - and an aspirational liberal perspective that I'd also agree we should all try aspire to... There are certainly a good few members who seem quite comfortable to simply be themselves, physically, with female clothing but without the addition of makeup or a wig. Like you ( and I think most folk here) I say - fine: be how you feel most comfortable as an individual - there is no CDers Rule Book, despite humorous assertions there is...

    From a personal POV, I simply love the completely transforming feel that completing the overall femme look with hair and makeup brings. If I were out, I'd probably also feel more comfortable that even being an obvious MIM (male in makeup!) I'd likely attract less attention than being without it all - anyway, I love the art behind it, and the fact that it is, in a way, an obfuscation of my male self.

    I have learnt a lot more tolerance from exposure to this site - and I do now firmly believe that we are all - well, 99% - part of that broad TG mosaic that runs from fetish dressers right through to TS. For those of us that embrace that idea, it's not such a big step to then accept that we all have different ways of expressing that complex persona - for some of us all the time; for others just part-time - but that all those uniquely individual ways are equally valid - and we should try to remember to do our best to respect that.

    Thanks for bringing up an important reminder...

    Katey x
    "Put some lipstick on - Perfume your neck and slip your high heels on
    Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear"
    Stefani Germanotta

  7. #7
    Junior Member Tami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krisi View Post
    If you want to parade around town in a skirt and beard, that's not illegal. It will, however, shock and disgust the majority of the general public. You can say they don't understand you and it may be true but that doesn't change their feelings towards you.

    It's your life and you can live it however you want to (within the law of course). What about your family members? Wife and children? Employer? What you do will affect them.
    Why would you be"parading " simply by wearing a skirt and having a beard ? And I don't think most people would be "disgusted" , perhaps it would raise an eyebrow or two. As mentioned below there is no rule book. I myself would be a lot happier if I had the nerve to switch my jeans for a skirt without the added pressure of feeling like I have to try and look like Beyoncé.
    " I saw a crossdresser on the moon the other day"

  8. #8
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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    I see a bit of a difference, and Katey is on it too.

    A lot of members here change their internal and external *gender* when they dress. Others (like me) don't.

    - MM
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    "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" - Hillel the Elder

  9. #9
    Just a touch of class Lynn Marie's Avatar
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    Point well made. Sorry, I'm not convinced. "Mixed" dressing is actually an embarrassment to me. My friends and I do our very best to present well whether we "pass" or not. Yes, we get noticed, most often in a good way.

  10. #10
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    I can see where you are coming from but it is hard to get my head around it.
    I may have further useful comment later in the thread.
    I hope it does not degenerate into a squabble.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  11. #11
    I accept myself as is Gillian Gigs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Drawer View Post
    I want to speak about the “man in a skirt” phenomenon. There is a full range of reactions to what is perceived as a man in a skirt on this site, but many are outright hostile. None the less it is essentially a simple fix!

    Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! While some here prefer the light is on or light is off approach to dressing (all or nothing), others (generally considered gender fluid/ gender queer) have a light that is constantly on the dimmer switch, never really off and rarely fully on either.
    The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.
    Many other threads talk about the general lack of observation for John Q Public, so to belabour a point, why would a man in a skirt be disgusting! Yes, some may wag their heads as they keep going, but most don't care, as long as no one is getting into their face about it. Aside; if there is anything that drives me nuts, it is the blatant sexuality on display during "Pride week". I don't need an in your face attitude while you tell me of your rights! Just my opinion. Or is this a result of the feeling that if you are brazen enough, then others will leave you alone?
    When we hear the word extremist, we usually think in the political arena, is that the only area we see extremists, what about CD extremists? You know, the ones who say all or nothing, or you have to do it just like me. Yes, there are a few out there, but there are probably just as many of us that would just prefer to be a "man in a skirt".
    If there is any one thing that I would like out of this life, it is this, that a person could live out their lives quietly as they choose and do no harm in the process. For me that would be as a "man in the skirt".
    I like myself, regardless of the packaging that I may come in! It's what is on the inside of the package that counts!

  12. #12
    Senior Member Princess Grandpa's Avatar
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    Do we really think John Q Public looks any differently if were made up and presenting nicely vs walking around with a beard or whatever? If they are accepting and tolerant they accept us and tolerate us. If the aren't they don't. I doubt very seriously if they see a difference at all. Sure some girls pass so well you would never know they were CD/TS. They are treated like the GG's they so closely resemble. The rest of us, those hoping to pass or those of us who could only pass in the dark from a great distance, we are men in skirts. Maybe men with make up maybe men with beards but men nevertheless. Only to us does it seem be a difference.

    If "they are going to accept us fully presenting, they will accept us partially presenting. There is only a difference here, amongst ourselves. To those of us who struggle to accept those others of us I have to ask, how can you demand to be accepted as you are and not grant that same right to another. Any other?

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    A person should wear what he likes to. And not just what other folks say. A person should be who she likes to. A person's a person that way!
    ~Marlo Thomas~

  13. #13
    Silver Member Debra Russell's Avatar
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    Personally - all or nothing, I can't see presenting any other than fully femm, I mean really - what's the point....................Debra

  14. #14
    Senior Member UNDERDRESSER's Avatar
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    Well I do want to go out in a skirt, but male. It has nothing to do with displaying my "inner gender"

    I am male, and quite happy to be so. I do feel that the male "image" has been distorted somewhat, and it isn't necessary to be the macho type, any more than it is necessary for a GG to be all fluttery and weak. My skirts are chosen with an eye for enhancing my general image, and not try to fake a female outline. It's tricky though, as some outfits actually work to display what I want, in a way that I want, but it looks wrong because of societal conditioning. The only way to get past that is to gently push the boundaries.

    I've said it before, I feel that some people crossdress because they want to show a different personality or behaviour, but they have been brought up to think that "men don't do that" OK, fine, I'll be a woman then. I think this is behind some of the strongly adverse reactions on here that a "man in a skirt" causes. Some feel it is wrong for them, and seeing someone else do it casts doubt on their own attitude, which in turn causes discomfort, fear, or anger.

    Please note, I don't think that this is true for all, or even most, but I do think that it is behind some of the reactions. If you don't feel this is true for you, then don't react as if I'm saying it is. Not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I myself have problems with some presentations, probably because I can't get past all of my own societal conditioning, or I can't grasp the other's mindset
    "Normal is what you get when you average out the weirdness that everybody has." Quote from my SO

    Normal is a setting on a washing machine, or another word for average.

    The fact that I wear a skirt as a male should not be taken as a comment on what you do, or do not wear, or how you wear it.

  15. #15
    Silver Member CynthiaD's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong. If you want to wear a dress while presenting as male, that's cool. (Ultra-cool, in fact!) However, for myself, there are a few things that I feel necessitate trying to look as feminine as possible. By "as feminine as possible" I mean: wig, breastforms, lipstick, and maybe light foundation to hide the razor-burn. The first things on that list are, of course, wig, breastforms, and makeup. Other things are skirts, dresses, certain tops, and high heels. I do wear high heels with male clothing, but only at home. If I go out, the heels come off, or the rest goes on.

    I do this because I don't want others to think I'm making a joke or making fun of femininity. But as I said, this is my rule and it applies only to me.

    I should add that I consider myself to be a woman with male body parts. This undoubtedly influences how I feel about such things.

  16. #16
    Little Mrs. Snarky! Nadine Spirit's Avatar
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    If anyone wants to wear a skirt and a beard, I say, go for it!

    But I do not ascribe to the philosophy that anybody should be allowed to wear anything at anytime. I think some things are inappropriate for public wear, regardless of what gender you are or are trying to emulate, or not emulate, however you want to put it. My personal opinions are that some items are better left for private alone time than for public display, generally the things that are more sexually related I think should be for your private time.

  17. #17
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    CDers of every variety, of all people, should know better than to judge a book by it's cover. Or try to dictate to others, WHAT a cover should look like.

    Sadly, that is more the exception than the rule here. But they are simply opinions and nothing more.

    And it should not take a Rocket Scientist to realize that CDers who go out only partially dressed ["more" noticeable to JD Public] and simply carry themselves with "class" AND more importantly treat others right are the ones who will make it easier for the full dressers.

    Actions speak louder than words.

    Or presentation.

  18. #18
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    I agree with you Wild. I also do not agree with the OP that there that some members here are "hostile" to those that go out as a "man in a skirt". People here voice their opinions. Some people can accept that look and presentation, like me, and others can not. Are they hostile because they do not like that look? You like your favorite football team and someone else doesn't. Is the other being hostile? I have rarely read truly hostile words regarding this.

  19. #19
    Member Billiejosehine's Avatar
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    Everyone has the right to wear whatever they want. Clothing after all is just an extension of who we are and a way to express who we are. Except what is/may be defined by a society in what is or not accepted; there is/should be no right or wrong way in how you should be. So why would it be wrong for a man to wear a skirt and still present themselves as a man? It doesn't harm anyone and it's that persons freedom to dress how they so choose. If you look at any culture you have kilts, dhoti, lungi, sarong, kanga, lamba, fustanella, and so forth.

  20. #20
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    This thread is very hard to respond to... so let me just say this...

    I agree with the OP on this issue and hope we could all "... hold a higher standard..." as most here already do.

    It's not easy to be different and go against what is considered normal. But for me it is necessary to be myself... just as others here do what they do to be themselves. There is no one right way or path to our individual and personal goals.
    Don't suppress who you are inside your heart. Let the world know how special you really are. Don't forget to smile as you share. It will come through in your beautiful words.

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  21. #21
    Aspiring Member kendra_gurl's Avatar
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    Right or Wrong, Up or Down, Left or Right, White or Black, the world we live in is made up of the Majority and the Minority. Just as it is on this site those two sides almost always see things differently.

    With that in mind I believe most would not consider themselves as extremist of either side which does allow for intelligent conversation and exchange of ideas. The ability to keep and open mind is a great asset while it also requires the ability to share one's own opinions openly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Drawer View Post
    I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.

    There really is a reason why Top 40 stations do not mix classical music into their lineup. It's what the Majority of their listeners want. Might not be best for everyone or everything but with most social issues the majority usually rules.

  22. #22
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    "There really is a reason why Top 40 stations do not mix classical music into their lineup. It's what the Majority of their listeners want. Might not be best for everyone or everything but with most social issues the majority usually rules."

    Kendra,

    What you say has value, but one could look at that in many ways. That classical music station is around because at least a minimum number of listeners, potential buyers to the station's advertiser's products, listen to it and can be counted. The same goes for real hard rock, hip hop, Latin or whatever genre of music station. The Majority in these cases do not rule, they go someplace else that have what they like. On minority genre stations it is the specific minority that listens or rules using your terminology. In our democracy, the majority vote gets their people in and usually rule based on their voters point of view. But they many times bend and compromise when necessary to make things happen (not like our current batch of politicians in some State and the Federal governments!).

    I implore the members on this site to dress as they wish and live their lives as they wish. We in ourselves are already a minority in the general public. We do not need less out there, those that dress appropriately. We need more out there to get the public used to seeing us, even interacting with us. They will soon find that we are no different as human beings than their own uncontrollable young sons or daughters who refuses to wear what all the other "normal" kids are wearing at that moment. On a minority site like this one no one should rule. We should support, assist all, and demand equality for all, even those that may be of a lesser minority to each of us in our own point of view. We do not have to live with that minority nor socialize with them, just respect their right to exist as we demand and hope that the general public will do the same for us.

  23. #23
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    This is an example of an individual or group asking for tolerance yet not being tolerant of others different than themselves. It happens whenever one of these groups achieves their goal of acceptance. It happens in race, religon, politics, and even crossdressing. In this case, that would be dressing and passing comforatbly. Then those who do not dress to their level of acceptance are not given the tolreance they demand for themselves.

    Instead of focusing your attention on others, why not focus on yourself and how to make yourself better. And expressing yourself is one thing, but taking it to the point of "in your face" to the general public is another. Is it fair to ask the world to bend for you or should you bend for the world? How about both give a little and meet somewhere in the middle. Ask not what you are not prepared to give.

  24. #24
    Aspiring Member kendra_gurl's Avatar
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    Allie yes of course there are alternatives to the Top 40's stations and that was my point as to the OP. In the vain of this thread the "man in a skirt" in going out in public the "majority place" so he has got to accept that some will ridicule him, that's a fact of life. That might not happen should he decide to change stations by going out only to CD friendly clubs or places while presenting as a man in a skirt.

    We are all human first, then male or female, then masculine or feminine or a blend. We have the right to dress as we want as long as we can still defend the rights of others to be offended by what we show them.

    Let me put it this way I am a male with male genitalia but there are laws against me showing those to the general public. I just think that instead of trying to force the majority to accept our crossdressing by looking obviously as a "man in a skirt" we should be thankful there are no laws against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Drawer View Post
    .” We are simply more accurately depicting who we are on the inside. It is not my fault that I have male pattern baldness or facial hair or even that I have a penis! I was born with those genes in place, sorry about that!
    Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! .
    Please help me to understand what it is about wearing only an article of clothing (in this case a skirt) but remaining male in appearance in public changes the way you feel about yourself. If you truly feel yourself to be feminine all the time then why only express it in a way that shocks others?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendra_gurl View Post
    Allie yes of course there are alternatives to the Top 40's stations and that was my point as to the OP. In the vain of this thread the "man in a skirt" in going out in public the "majority place" so he has got to accept that some will ridicule him, that's a fact of life. That might not happen should he decide to change stations by going out only to CD friendly clubs or places while presenting as a man in a skirt.
    Says who? I've gone out as a "man in a skirt" plenty of times, in various places, and not only to queer-friendly locales, and if I've ever been ridiculed, it was minor enough that I've easily forgotten it, since I can't remember it ever happening. Most of the people claiming I'll be ridiculed have no experience of their own to argue against mine, and just about everyone I've encountered who does have the experience finds that theirs agrees with mine.

    Well, on second thought, the one time I can think of that someone criticized me for wearing a skirt while otherwise presenting as male, it was a trans woman at a discussion group for transgender issues, using the same bad argument as elsewhere in this thread, that doing so is somehow insulting to women. One might conclude that I would do better to stay out of these so-called friendly places.

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