The "man in a skirt" phenomenon

[Secret Drawer]

I want to speak about the “man in a skirt” phenomenon. There is a full range of reactions to what is perceived as a man in a skirt on this site, but many are outright hostile. None the less it is essentially a simple fix!
Assuming most of us here (considering it is a male to female forum!) are genetic males we naturally understand that not only do we have penises but often male body structure, facial and body hair, male pattern baldness, adams apples, etc. and so on to contend with. However, none of this really matters because as we all already know, GENDER IS BETWEEN THE EARS, NOT THE LEGS! So it doesn't really matter that you have a deep tenor voice, your voice doesn't force you to talk about fantasy sports and eating raw deer liver. Your brain decides what you are going to say.
In a recent post someone said that they felt disingenuous when they put on makeup and a wig before going out in public because it felt like a disguise. Yet this person prefers wearing women's clothing over mens out in public. Is this a case of a “man” looking to shock or be humiliated publicly? No, it is simply that person happens to have genetically male looking features with a more feminine featured mindset. It would seem that some people (many of us being right here!) are actually not at all “men in skirts.” We are simply more accurately depicting who we are on the inside. It is not my fault that I have male pattern baldness or facial hair or even that I have a penis! I was born with those genes in place, sorry about that!
Not only is it incorrect to state that men in skirts are out to shock the general public or are harmful to the CDTG community it also could not be further from the truth! While some here prefer the light is on or light is off approach to dressing (all or nothing), others (generally considered gender fluid/ gender queer) have a light that is constantly on the dimmer switch, never really off and rarely fully on either.
The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Some TS feel that when a man wears obviously "feminine" clothing and presents as a man it somehow belittles or makes light of those suffering with GID. I don't agree this is the case (some of the closest people in life have been TS and I know the pain they go through, as close as an observer can anyway), and I never, ever would do something I believed would make any of their lives harder) but that is the perception of some.

[Lillyasia]

This is an example of an individual or group asking for tolerance yet not being tolerant of others different than themselves. It happens whenever one of these groups achieves their goal of acceptance. It happens in race, religon, politics, and even crossdressing. In this case, that would be dressing and passing comforatbly. Then those who do not dress to their level of acceptance are not given the tolreance they demand for themselves.

Instead of focusing your attention on others, why not focus on yourself and how to make yourself better. And expressing yourself is one thing, but taking it to the point of "in your face" to the general public is another. Is it fair to ask the world to bend for you or should you bend for the world? How about both give a little and meet somewhere in the middle. Ask not what you are not prepared to give.

[Princess Grandpa]

"I just want to understand their reason". How often have we all heard that. I would love to understand why I need to do this. Other that those trapped in the wrong body, why do any of us do this. There has yet to be anyone able to answer that question as far as I know.

The reason I can understand that a GG would question us like that but not understand why a CD would question a partial dresser (appropriate phrase?) is we should know better. We've been on the side of the one being questioned. We know what it's like to feel ostracized, picked on, or made to feel abnormal. You feel they *waves his hand vaguely* should accept you. Can you tell them why you do it? I can't. I've heard them say we do it for shock value. "Why else would they leave the house?" It's the same things I read here on this thread.

Hug
Rita

[trishacd]

Well put!

[natcrys]

I have always been a supporter of the idea that everyone should be able to wear what they want. So, if a guy want to wear a dress, but not shave his legs.. or doesn't want to mess around with make-up. Or (dare I say it.. ) doesn't want to wear heels.. all the more power to them!

For me personally, if I could get away with not wearing make-up.. I'd probably wear much less of it. But my clothing will need to be completely feminine.

[Krisi]

If you want to parade around town in a skirt and beard, that's not illegal. It will, however, shock and disgust the majority of the general public. You can say they don't understand you and it may be true but that doesn't change their feelings towards you.

It's your life and you can live it however you want to (within the law of course). What about your family members? Wife and children? Employer? What you do will affect them.

[Tami]

If you want to parade around town in a skirt and beard, that's not illegal. It will, however, shock and disgust the majority of the general public. You can say they don't understand you and it may be true but that doesn't change their feelings towards you.

It's your life and you can live it however you want to (within the law of course). What about your family members? Wife and children? Employer? What you do will affect them.

Why would you be"parading " simply by wearing a skirt and having a beard ? And I don't think most people would be "disgusted" , perhaps it would raise an eyebrow or two. As mentioned below there is no rule book. I myself would be a lot happier if I had the nerve to switch my jeans for a skirt without the added pressure of feeling like I have to try and look like Beyoncé.

[mechamoose]

I see a bit of a difference, and Katey is on it too.

A lot of members here change their internal and external *gender* when they dress. Others (like me) don't.

- MM

[Lynn Marie]

Point well made. Sorry, I'm not convinced. "Mixed" dressing is actually an embarrassment to me. My friends and I do our very best to present well whether we "pass" or not. Yes, we get noticed, most often in a good way.

[Princess Grandpa]

As there is no way to know which of us is right Jennifer I guess we agree to disagree. Hug. I don't believe they see anything but a man in a dress no matter how nicely we present.

And in the end John Q Public doesn't matter. We all have to be true to our own selves. Whether that means going out as a man in a skirt, fully presenting beautifully, or transitioning. We each have to follow the path we feel is right and have to allow everyone else to do the same.

Hug
Rita

[JamieOH]

I can assure you that I definitely look like a man no matter how I do my make up and wig. And a lot of times I don't wear wig and makeup. Yet I don't disgust or make people uncomfortable. I may not look like a beauty queen or even a. Drag queen, but I am confident and smile. I hold my head high. And people respond to me with courtesy and respect. They smile laugh with me not at me. It is all about how you approach them. And how you see yourself

[Secret Drawer]

I never expected this thread to grow legs like it did, thanks to everyone for your input.
There seems to be two sticking points that need addressing, one being the presentation issue, and the other is the “whats the point?”
In so far as presentation, I only ever expect anyone (CDs and non CDs alike) to dress appropriately for community standards and venue. The very idea of shock value (even disgust!) is off the table! Presentation, no matter what the gender variation should always be of the most tasteful. The slippery slope here is if you cannot accept someone wearing the clothing of the opposite gender at all, then you cannot accept yourself either, which I fear is the issue for some of the folks here.
The idea of “whats the point?” is a struggle for understanding which is always a good thing to try to do, and I will try to clarify for those who wonder.
I identify myself as gender fluid. What this means (among other things) is that I do not necessarily identify as being wholly male or female. If I were to wake up tomorrow morning with a vagina instead of a penis I would no doubt be surprised, but ultimately not have a particular crisis attack over it, and eventually just get on with my day. (Because I do not identify myself through my genitalia at all!) Now, if I decided to wear a skirt later that day it would technically fit within even the strictest community standards because after all, technically I would be an actual woman. However, in our little scenario I have exactly the same male looking body, face, everything! So according to some, I will shock and disgust the general public prompting a witch hunt and getting arrested for some form or other of classless act. Once I was in jail and it was discovered that I in fact was a woman, then it becomes a shameful apology fest. (After all, ugly is not a crime... yet!?) However, this scenario is highly unlikely, but why is it somehow OK for the above “beat down” to be acceptable simply because I have different plumbing then the packaging indicated? (Bearing in mind that we are holding ourselves to tasteful and acceptable attire, minus the opposite gender bit!)
In so far as the why bother, the short answer is because that is simply as far as I feel the need to go. Some are happy just in the bedroom, some need to become post op women. It is just a step along the way.

[noeleena]

Hi,

So a man in a skirt. or a dress no matter ether way. so Join our group The SCA. or some other Renaissance group. im a member and its world wide, most of our men wear dress's and the Public know this so where is the man in a dress gone wrong ,

oh but of cause western thinking over the last how many years, you work it out, so what has changed since the time men wore dress's to now,

Now then ....you look at my photo what do you see some one with no hair no makeup male masculine facial features at our Scottish week end late last year, with 50 of our people im well known do the photo work and seen all the time, so pass judgement ill say I look more male so my ? to you is am i.

I'v been asked, told , your game to be dressed as a woman or you have the courage to take on the personer of a woman and are you a woman ,

So how would you answer that , you see i have a few screws lose or missing a bit insane and plan weird so quite nuts as it is , so why would i dress as i do, and many 1000's of people see me and many 10,s of 1000's more know my background as well so why the hell would i put my self and family through the hell of, what the hell are you and doing,

as you go look up my profile ether here or the net, youll see some of us are born different, not a dresser though it looks like i do, not trans though some would be more happy had i been, well maybe not,
So i'll let you answer then you can tell me instead of giving my answer, see what you come up with. then you may understand why some of us are skited up or dressed up because of how we are born,

...noeleena...

[Wildaboutheels]

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

Could there be any better proof of that than this thread?

[Karmen]

I love wearing skirts while dressed as a girl, but I don't think I could wear it in male mode in reality. It's just not aceptible by the general public. Most of the people know about crossdressers and kind of accept them, the same as gays, but men wearing only skirt or high heels, otherwise wearing male clothes, people see them as freaks.
But if some day skirt for men will become generally acceptable, I know I'll wear them.

[Ellie52]

I'm lucky as well in the fact I live in Perth Australia and as we are so close to Indonesia, Sarongs are quite popular. My wife made me some silk sarongs that I wear around the house and garden. The neighbors have seen and don't care. Ive been to the local shops and nobody bothered. I've been to hotels wearing them. Even my son (who is 21) and his mates have all seen me and don't give a damn. I usually wear a ladies vest with the sarong skirt with panties underneath and ballet flats or black skate shoes. This means I am totally dressed in women's clothes but as a male and I get away with it.
Im not really bothered with the makeup, boobs and wigs like many others here so the Sarong/vest combo is great for me..

[Katey888]

I agree it's well put - and an aspirational liberal perspective that I'd also agree we should all try aspire to... There are certainly a good few members who seem quite comfortable to simply be themselves, physically, with female clothing but without the addition of makeup or a wig. Like you ( and I think most folk here) I say - fine: be how you feel most comfortable as an individual - there is no CDers Rule Book, despite humorous assertions there is...

From a personal POV, I simply love the completely transforming feel that completing the overall femme look with hair and makeup brings. If I were out, I'd probably also feel more comfortable that even being an obvious MIM (male in makeup!) I'd likely attract less attention than being without it all - anyway, I love the art behind it, and the fact that it is, in a way, an obfuscation of my male self.

I have learnt a lot more tolerance from exposure to this site - and I do now firmly believe that we are all - well, 99% - part of that broad TG mosaic that runs from fetish dressers right through to TS. For those of us that embrace that idea, it's not such a big step to then accept that we all have different ways of expressing that complex persona - for some of us all the time; for others just part-time - but that all those uniquely individual ways are equally valid - and we should try to remember to do our best to respect that.

Thanks for bringing up an important reminder...

Katey x

[Beverley Sims]

I can see where you are coming from but it is hard to get my head around it.
I may have further useful comment later in the thread.
I hope it does not degenerate into a squabble.

[Tanya+]

i was driving home, saw a lovely set of legs in patterned pantyhose, 4" heels mid-thigh length skirt, -my kind of outfit.. plane black shirt neatly trimmed beard. confident, gorgeous handsome. Everything i would be if i was a tad less repressed.

"i wouldn't, so he shouldn't" ?!! Spare me.

[Katey888]

I may have further useful comment later in the thread.
I hope it does not degenerate into a squabble.

I think you can come back in now, Bev, and you can pick up the CD.COM award for experienced inspired prescience on the way in..

Secret started this discussion with an OP that finished with this phrase that must seem impenetrable to some: "The venom and hostility towards this idea of a “man in a skirt” is just a lack of understanding. I implore the members on this site to hold a higher standard then the general public probably ever will. There is no easy road for any of us here and while we will never all agree on the radio station, this site should always be a warm safe car to be in."

Some fascinating discussions, debates and counter-debates... can't we all just condense this to one simple mantra...?

Live, and let live...

How hard can it be to do that without needing to 'understand' every individual's, individual motivation for doing what they feel they need and want to do...?

I think this is being over-rationalised and over-thought again.... So I am turning for solace to another trusty margarita... Skol, Secret!

Katey x

[Anna H]

This is just out of the most innocent of curiosity....I'll never have a
more relevant chance to ask....

Here at a MTF place...I have a habit of saying "Hi ladies!" at times.

Does the guy in the dress prefer "he"...or "she" ?

(I'll no doubt get it wrong at times...please overlook that...)

[Jason+]

This is just out of the most innocent of curiosity....I'll never have a
more relevant chance to ask....

Here at a MTF place...I have a habit of saying "Hi ladies!" at times.

Does the guy in the dress prefer "he"...or "she" ?

(I'll no doubt get it wrong at times...please overlook that...)

This particular man in a dress is happy enough with he although the rare but occasional she doesn't hurt my feelings any.

[natcrys]

Frankly, I am flabbergasted by many of these replies. How could people who want so much to be understood and accepted deny that to someone else? Opinions are one thing, outright hostility (and most of those replies are extremely hostile) are entirely out of line.

"Those who who would give up their freedom for a little temporary security will get (and deserve) neither." - Benjamin Franklin

To seek acceptance while not being accepting falls much into the same category.

↑↑↑ This! I had already chimed in in this thread a few days ago.. but I too have been reading the replies with amazement and perhaps a slightly rising blood pressure..

What is so hard about letting everyone dress the way they want to??? <-- (Yes, I think this warrants three question marks!)

Sure, a lot of us dress as feminine as possible, or try to be as passable as possible (both guilty as charged).. but some of us don't. Some just want to wear a skirt.. who are we to ask about the fundamental reasons when we don't even understand the "standard crossdressing" ourselves?

If someone says they like the feeling or the colour.. then so be it.. if they say "I just like it".. that should be perfectly fine too!

We're all on this boat together.. and while I realise that I was relatively lucky in the genes department and am able to pass in a quite a few situations,... I'll be damned if that stops me from hanging out in public places with friends who don't pass as well and/or friends who don't aim to pass and just want to wear what they want!

/rant

What I do:
(....whole story...)

Moral of the story:
None.

Okay, I LOL'ed!

[sanderlay]

Does the guy in the dress prefer "he"...or "she" ?

Good question.

Many persons prefer gender neutral terms. Even saying guy is gendered. So replacing guy with person works best. So unless you know for sure, they tell you, I would refrain from assuming their gender. They may not even like he said or she said. They said or works best and is gender neutral. He/she is not recommended.

Gendered speech is certainly very common. I have been using it my whole life. But I have made an attempt in my own life to use gender neutral terms. I do slip up a lot but I'm trying to be sensitive.

Search for "gender neutral terms" and you will find websites about this subject.

For myself on this forum... You may call me sanderlay, Debbie or Steve. Any of these work fine. You may say he or she also, but I do prefer gender neutral terms.