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Thread: She said no way was her son going to put on an Elsa dress

  1. #26
    Junior Member Chloe75's Avatar
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    Lexi, I think you could. That is a gorgeous dress though I don't see the slit....giggles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexi_83 View Post
    Had to look it up. I don't think I could pull it off, anyway....
    Last edited by Lorileah; 04-01-2014 at 12:16 AM. Reason: didn't need photo

  2. #27
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    There are no easy answers in these situations. You have a few seconds to make a decision based on who is talking, how you feel, how you would word what you have to say, and the longer term implications based on how the others are the table would reaction. I think that most of us could look back on hundreds of scenarios where we wish we had said something or said something different, not only in terms of CD'ing but regarding people's comments about the genders, gays, the disabled, racial differences, and politics.
    Missed opportunity? Sure, but not the end of the world.

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    The mother didn't want her boy wearing a dress - that's not transphobia!! That's called parenting. She's guiding him in the ways of our current society as any mother would.
    The way she seems to vocalize it, yes, my guess is that it is transphobia, and thats parenting in one of the worst ways possible, to force onto a kid the bigoted ways of society, which in case that he in the end happens to be under the Transgender umbrella, will only reinforce in him self hate, self loathing, insecurity, depression, terrible guilt and shame and a long etc many here can relate to. Quite unhealthy.

    If the kid wants to wear a dress, and really wants to wear it, let the kid do it and defend his choice in front of anyone who dares pass on any judgement. Now that is parenting in my opinion.

  4. #29
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    There's parenting and then there's parenting. I think many of us viewed the original post as a mom with innate hostility. Sure, we do not know how she approached a conversation with her son. Did she sit down and calmly explain in some manner that societal norms and expectations preclude the son from wearing women's clothing? Or did she scream and yell at her son and send him to bed without supper for having such sinful thoughts? Don't know? From what was stated I assume she herself is not in any way shape or form accepting of cross dressing men. Of course at a very young age a boy may not have been subjected to the societal norms.

    Back in the 1950's and early 1960's my baseball team's center field was "Charlie," AKA: Linda. She wore jeans and tee shirts. I never saw her in a dress. She was a damn good center fielder and hitter. All the old biddies in the neighborhood talked ill of her. How could a girl be allowed to play baseball? All the boys cared about was her ability to hit and field. I think her parents must have figured being a center fielder was OK. Otherwise, how could a kid ever get the money to buy boy clothes. I just figure Linda was several decades ahead of her time. My daughter played softball at the same age as Linda, but, she was on an all girl team, and, they all chose to wear pink tee shirts.

    I guess each of us get to fill in the blanks. I filled in the blanks based on the actuality of my parents and every other boy's parents of the 1950's and 1960's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG View Post
    The mother didn't want her boy wearing a dress - that's not transphobia!! That's called parenting. She's guiding him in the ways of our current society as any mother would. We don't know that she doesn't allow him to dress secretly at home or whether she's just venting to friends as we women do - not actually thinking anyone expects her to change the world at the same time.

    She may or may not be transphobic, but there's plenty of transparanoia here!

  5. #30
    Aspiring Member kendra_gurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    Our current society is sick. Sorry - but it is. This is not a behavioral problem that has to be "corrected". It is a childhood medical condition that is generally ignored because society hates it, and would rather pretend it didn't exist..
    This Assumes a lot that is not known here. Was this perhaps a 3 to 6 year old who just thinks it might be fun or was it a 7 to 12 year old who has been wanting to experiment for a long time with crossdressing? We don't even know how she handled the situation with her son, only what she said later to her lunch friends.

    My grandson when he was very small 3 or 4 went thru a brief period when he expressed some interest in more girly things. No one made a big deal about it and his fascination with it passed rather naturally.
    While I would be able to understand and support him had he chosen a different path thru his own choice or nature, I would not have at that age encouraged him by allowing him to wear a dress.

    Just because we accept there are gender variances among us does not mean we have to want it for our children if its not really there.

    If that mother has said sure why not. if he wants to parade around in a princess dress so be it I don't care some on this site might think that was great but would it really be without at least some investigation as to his motivation?

  6. #31
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    This Assumes a lot that is not known here. Was this perhaps a 3 to 6 year old who just thinks it might be fun or was it a 7 to 12 year old who has been wanting to experiment for a long time with crossdressing? We don't even know how she handled the situation with her son, only what she said later to her lunch friends.
    Whatever the situation, why would not he be able to wear the dress? and why would be so inquisitive saying "that line won't be crossed"?

    My grandson when he was very small 3 or 4 went thru a brief period when he expressed some interest in more girly things. No one made a big deal about it and his fascination with it passed rather naturally.
    While I would be able to understand and support him had he chosen a different path thru his own choice or nature, I would not have at that age encouraged him by allowing him to wear a dress.
    Encouraging in what sense? So you would not allow him either if you were the parent to wear the dress? Exactly why? Ingrained prejudice that transgenderism is something bad. Yes society is harsh, I'm closeted for these very reasons but at that age? Why would it matter? Society is harsh exactly because of this kind of decisions, no one does nothing when given the opportunity to a step forward.

    Just because we accept there are gender variances among us does not mean we have to want it for our children if its not really there.
    No sure, we don't know if its really there, all he is asking is to wear a dress. Let the kid wear the dress I say. Besides, whats wrong with the gender variances? We are all affected by society's transphobia its got to us, we have it too.

    If that mother has said sure why not. if he wants to parade around in a princess dress so be it I don't care some on this site might think that was great but would it really be without at least some investigation as to his motivation?
    I agree 100% here, thats why in my last post I said "...if he really wants to wear the dress..." But that does not mean that wearing a dress is something to be ashamed, something bad or sinful like this mom approach seems to be.

    Sure sure, parenting is hard, you want the best for your kid, you dont want him/her be bullied etc etc but its these kind of moves towards tolerance that parents are responsible of, and many fail at doing the right thing.

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    The woman who said it is a great friend. I considered her to be an ally as she has made affirming statements about gays before. But as we all know, to be gay friendly does not add up to being T friendly. Son is 3 going on 4. She also has 5 year old daughter. Now what I probably should have said was what if her daughter wanted to dress up as a male character what would her feeling on that be? May have been the same but I'd wager not.

  8. #33
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    Personally I would have said something but I completely understand why you didn't. Also don't be too hard on yourself about not saying anything. Kids these days are a lot more exposed to everything, the good and the bad 8 guess. So there's a fair chance that child will find his own way by the time he can seriously think about it. It's a shame about his mother...

    Wow 8 love the dress though <3

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    Was this perhaps a 3 to 6 year old who just thinks it might be fun or was it a 7 to 12 year old who has been wanting to experiment for a long time with crossdressing? We don't even know how she handled the situation with her son, only what she said later to her lunch friends.
    Why would age have made any difference? Some of us start really young. The mom sure didn't sound like she'd be very accepting, did she?

    While I would be able to understand and support him had he chosen a different path thru his own choice or nature, I would not have at that age encouraged him by allowing him to wear a dress.
    You'd have been wrong then. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. Maybe (hopefully) it would've just been a phase for him. Maybe the poor kid is actually trans, and will not seek treatment now until they've been horribly scarred by testosterone. We'll never know, because mom knows best - even when she likely doesn't know anything, and is apparently prejudiced.

  10. #35
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    Theres like a kind of culture about parenting that makes people think parents are entitled to do whatever they want with their kids, regardless of the consequences...

    Scary.

  11. #36
    Aspiring Member kendra_gurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    You'd have been wrong then. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. Maybe (hopefully) it would've just been a phase for him. Maybe the poor kid is actually trans, and will not seek treatment now until they've been horribly scarred by testosterone. We'll never know, because mom knows best - even when she likely doesn't know anything, and is apparently prejudiced.
    You have every right to you opinion and to promote any agenda you want.

    I learned a long time ago not to jump on anyones bandwagon until I find out enough information to make a decision on my own and when presented with an in your face attitude about anything, first thing I do is take a giant step back and figure out what and where that agenda is coming from.

    A little sceniro if you will. This little 3 or 4 or 7 or 12 year old does indeed get to wear the princess dress. He enjoys acting out scenes of that character he saw in the movie and has a great time in doing so. The next year when a new Spider man or Super man movie come out he totally abandons the princess clothing for a new costume. Now fast forward a few year when he has totally out grew all costumes and has become a typical young boy with friends who all of a sudden hear from his older sister that he used to love to wear a princess dress. Does it matter that he was just a kid experimenting with something that was totally harmless at the time and may have grew out of it? Does that stop the ridicule and bulling from his school mates?

    Paula I have followed your post for quite some time and know where your coming from and can admire you for fighting against transphobia and prejudice. But without the all facts in this case you seem to be the one who thinks your way is the only way.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimini1 View Post
    Apparently this is a Disney character popular right now. I eat lunch with a group of 30-something women. One just got back from Disneyworld and said her son wanted to dress as Elsa. She said that is where I draw the line. No way are you going to put on a dress.
    I felt poorly. This is what I come to the lunch table to hear on a semi-regular basis. I wanted to crawl under the table. Had to just grin and bear it.
    No. You didn't. You could have said something. You could have asked just why that's so terrible. Would you have changed her mind? Probably not, but you would have been true to yourself, not scared of shadows, and after all, you would be surprised how much of a difference you can make in the minds of bystanders when you shatter a perceived consensus by silence.

    "Grin and bear it?" Anyone who has watched Frozen will know how well "conceal, don't feel", which sounds remarkably similar, worked for Elsa.

    Quote Originally Posted by bimini1 View Post
    Can't blame her either. There is no way out. It's not going to be accepted any time soon is it?
    Not that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by kendra_gurl View Post
    A little sceniro if you will. This little 3 or 4 or 7 or 12 year old does indeed get to wear the princess dress. He enjoys acting out scenes of that character he saw in the movie and has a great time in doing so. The next year when a new Spider man or Super man movie come out he totally abandons the princess clothing for a new costume. Now fast forward a few year when he has totally out grew all costumes and has become a typical young boy with friends who all of a sudden hear from his older sister that he used to love to wear a princess dress. Does it matter that he was just a kid experimenting with something that was totally harmless at the time and may have grew out of it? Does that stop the ridicule and bulling from his school mates?
    So? Lots of schoolchildren, and adults as well -- I would say most -- have events in their childhood that they would be embarrassed to have their friends hear about. Parents can't stop this from happening (more likely, they unintentionally encourage many forms of it because they think it's cute at the time.)

    I think a child who isn't taught by their parents' actions that being oneself is something to be ashamed of will be much healthier and more resilient to bullying than one who is taught to hide their self and to think of fitting in above all. Further, no one should deceive themself that obsessive "fitting in" is any sort of defense against bullying. That only comes from strong sense of self, associating with real friends and not bullies, and if it turns physical, knowing how to defend oneself.
    Last edited by SabrinaEmily; 03-31-2014 at 06:17 PM. Reason: replying to another post

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendra_gurl View Post
    Does it matter that he was just a kid experimenting with something that was totally harmless at the time and may have grew out of it? Does that stop the ridicule and bulling from his school mates?
    This is why so many parents keep trans kids from expressing their gender identity at all. There's no way to protect your kid from everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by kendra_gurl View Post
    Paula I have followed your post for quite some time and know where your coming from and can admire you for fighting against transphobia and prejudice. But without the all facts in this case you seem to be the one who thinks your way is the only way.
    No hon, just the most probable explanation. bimini1 seemed to feel the comment was really negative - that's the best evidence we have. Will we ever know? Nope. I've seen this kind of thing happen over and over and over again though, to kids who ultimately grow up to be trans.

    Anyway, my opinion is that she's probably in the vast horde of cis people who condition boys to display NO feminine characteristics at all.

    Well, we can agree to disagree - you are correct, we'll never know the end of the story, so your opinion is as good as mine.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Deedee Skyblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie47 View Post
    There is a saying a friend a long time ago used: "You protest too much!" If the coworker is so against her son wearing the attire of a cartoon young woman, what's really bothering her? Her husband is a cross dresser? Her mother's marriage was destroyed by cross dressing?
    She doesn't understand gender. She was raised to believe "real men don't wear dresses". She wants her boy child to grow up to be that kind of man. There is no reason to read _anything_ further into this woman's attitude.

    Deedee

    Quote Originally Posted by bimini1 View Post
    I find it tough to argue with females about anything. It's like I can never get an upper hand on them.
    Maybe the reason we're all CDs is that we are tired of being wrong every time we disagree with a woman? Uh, oh, that's probably going to get me in trouble. Oh, well - it's a joke!

    Deedee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel View Post
    Yes society is harsh, I'm closeted for these very reasons but at that age?
    We don't know the kid's age, but who is crueler to a 8 year old who is different than the other 8 year olds around him/her? I was practically driven to tears because I was the first boy in my grade who had to wear glasses. Is it wrong to want to protect your son from being bullied?

    Deedee
    Last edited by Lorileah; 04-01-2014 at 12:20 AM. Reason: merged consecutive posts, when responding to multiple post use multiquote or edit please Thanks
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  15. #40
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    Bimini1, Please, Please don't beat yourself up about this moment in time. Ok, you could have said something, that would have been great. But, remember, you are at the workplace. One doesn't want to create conflict on a social basis with your co-workers. You will know when it's time to speak up. If this young boy is at the beginning of his transgender journey, mom will have many more days where you can speak to her privately with compassion, knowledge, and true sincerity. She will need the support because as much as we all would like to believe to the contrary, the realization that one's child maybe transgender, especially when they are so young, can be very scary to the parent.

    You know, when your child is born, you want the world for them, but what seems a blink of the eye, you turn and see that the world is already theirs. So, when something like transgenderism surfaces, parents are facing the unknown, and anything unknown is scary, scary, scary, especially when it comes to your child.

    Of course, we all know silence kills silently and in these days of such social polarization, least we live the days of the Holocaust ever again, God Deliver Us! Think of your experience this way, dear, while you were silent that day, that day, allowed you to be one day closer to the day you will no longer be silent. On that day, how joyous of a day it will be, and you will open the door to a freer life.

    Take Care Dear.

    Cassie
    Last edited by TxCassie; 03-31-2014 at 06:45 PM.

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    For some reason I suspect there is going to be a part two to this. In actuality, I guess how she feels about it is really none of my business. What I need to work on is thicker skin and how I process these attitudes. It wasn't about me, it was about her 3 year old son. But somehow, I made it about me.

    This is why I say I am too self-absorbed about being TG. One can be offended by anything if they look hard enough. It should have rolled off my back but for some reason today I could not let it go.

    Funny how someone could say something so insignificant to them, yet it rocked my afternoon and led to this elaborate discussion here. She probably hasn't given what she said a second thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bimini1 View Post
    It wasn't about me, it was about her 3 year old son. But somehow, I made it about me.
    It's completely understandable that you felt that way. I've felt that way before - listening to stories at dinner with my friends in Oklahoma and hearing them talk about trans women who'd kind of been run out of town. They didn't know about me then - I wasn't out yet. I sat in silence, and felt I dare say nothing.

    One of the guys at the table mentioned he'd really like to see a transgender woman naked because of her anatomical peculiarities. (This was phrased in a crude enough manner that the mods will stroke out if I typed it verbatim.) I almost said something but didn't.

    One of my friends, after I came out, told me it was probably better I hadn't said anything. She was of the opinion he'd have beaten me up had I outed myself.

  18. #43
    Platinum Member Eryn's Avatar
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    The world is full of teachable moments and the fact that one slipped by should not distress you. You were just not prepared to teach at that moment and you will be better prepared next time.

    As far as the boy wearing the dress, a lot of boys put on dresses and don't become CDers. it's not as though we catch CDing from frilly clothes, after all! Chances are, he'll have is fun and have nothing left from it other than memories of a good time and an appreciation for what women go through to look good.

    Now he might put on a dress and realize that there's something special there, but that something existed before the dress came into the picture. Such an experience might well save him from decades of vague self-loathing before he finally comes to grips with his "inordinate interest" in feminine things.

    Unfortunately the mainstream population is blissfully ignorant of TG issues and we are one of the the last minority groups that is still subject to blatant ridicule and hatred. That doesn't mean that I sit idly by while people express hateful things about the community. It is indeed possible to make it known that such behavior is not acceptable without outing oneself.

    Questioning a parenting decision does require a light touch. One might ask what the parent fears in allowing their son to dress up as a female character but raising a direct objection would not be productive.

    It might be helpful to ask a couple of questions. Has he dressed up as a ghost? A zombie? A vampire? All of these are manifestations of characters living after dying. If the mother is worried about wearing a dress costume causing gender issues wouldn't dressing as ghoulish characters lead to far worse outcomes?
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimini1 View Post
    I do feel like I totally dropped the ball. Like I didn't have the faculties to get into with her without coming off as nervous sounding about it.
    I find it tough to argue with females about anything. It's like I can never get an upper hand on them.
    So, are you in effect saying that in order to hang with the girls and keep up with them, you have to grow a pair?

    Kinda turns the whole TG/TS experience on it's ear, don'tcha' think?

  20. #45
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    [QUOTE=bimini1;3476428]Could it be I didn't say anything because I don't firmly believe there is nothing wrong with it myself? Is it possible to be trans and transphobic at the same time?

    What got me most of all is that in previous conversations with this woman, she comes off as being the most liberal of the bunch.

    I find that the most liberal of the bunch are the ones that are the least understanding when it comes to others opinions.
    I see it everyday and don't mind to make it known to them how hypocritical they sound.
    I have a friend that says he is for equal rights and yet gays and trans people are freaks an should be strung up.
    Apparently he pays no attention to the way I dress which I find hysterical.
    Last edited by Tracii G; 03-31-2014 at 11:38 PM.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bimini1 View Post
    For some reason I suspect there is going to be a part two to this. In actuality, I guess how she feels about it is really none of my business. What I need to work on is thicker skin and how I process these attitudes. It wasn't about me, it was about her 3 year old son. But somehow, I made it about me.
    I think that you displayed sensitivity by not saying anything. You knew that it was her call and a discussion about parents' decisions about their kids is not something to start a debate over during a lunch with several friends. It's not as if this woman was belittling and making fun of a crossdresser that she had just seen. This is a mother who is not a part of the culture in this forum, and who understandably wants her three year old son to grow up to be a boy ... despite everyone who says there is nothing wrong with boys wearing dresses.

    There is a difference between accepting a next door neighbor who crossdresses, and a son who wants to do the same.

    I'm also liberal and 25 years ago if my son had expressed (perhaps several times) that he wanted to wear a dress, I would have been afraid. You say this woman said that "she drew the line" at a dress. This indicates there might have been other times her son has wanted to be feminine. We all know that the world is not kind to transgenders and none of us relishes the idea that our children might be different. It would have taken me some time and some education to come to realize what wanting to wear a dress was all about and the best way to handle it.

    An option, if you know this woman well, is to remind her of her comment when you are alone with her next, and ask her if she is afraid that her son might like to dress up like a girl too much. You could tell her that you know something about transgender children, and then just go ahead and explain to her what you do know. You might even do a little homework ahead of time and find a good site for parents of transgender children that you could share, in case it is needed. If she wants to know why you know so much, you could simply say that you know a transgender child. This would not be too far from the truth.
    Reine

  22. #47
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    I'm with Tinkerbell and Reine on this one. Before I assume the worst about the mother and transphobia, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she doesn't believe her son is trans. If any of you have ever been to Disneyland, you've probably seen that little girls in princess costumes are photographed by strangers all the time. She may not have wanted her son's picture snapped and shared by people she doesn't know, or wanted people laughing at her son in a public place like Disneyland.

  23. #48
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    You were caught off guard and obviously feel guilty for not taking a stance. It's pretty common here.

    Now the only question is, after reading all these replies, and having had time to chew on it, what will happen the next time?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit View Post
    . I justified my behavior quite a bit but still knew that it was wrong on numerous levels. I vowed to never allow myself to do that again.

    and this time I said "Hey guys, don't forget that the cross dressers that you are talking about are men, who could probably still kick your ass." They looked at me, and changed the topic. Never again have they brought up the topic in my presence.
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    With respect Reine, Tinkerbell and Winona I disagree.

    As reported in the OP, the issue is not about Bmini, nor about the boy but about the apparent prejudice to gender nonconformity in society and particularly by this parent. We have only the OP report however the tone seems fairly clear in terms of a disdain for societal non conformity on this issue. We have seen this suppression of expression before, Stonewall, Civil rights movement, even the first women and girls who dared to wear trousers in public. Wear does this line that is drawn stop? Does it include "Protecting children from information harmful to their health and development" ?

    And no Reine, 25 years ago you may well have been afraid but you would not have drawn that line. This I believe, you may well have talked to your son and tried to make him understand to the best of your ability why some people may pick on him or be mean to him for wanting the dress to play dress ups, but if he truly wanted to do it you would have backed him up 110% and floored any adult who had the audacity to pick on him. Sorry, thats just who you are. It's who most parents, particularly mothers, are, it's just that sometimes we have to have the smoke and mirrors of society removed from our eyes.

    "Love one another as you love yourself". The commandment is NOT "Love one another as society loves them". It's a true commandment whether you are christian or not.

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