Label vs Community

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

As you can see by my tag line "Labels are for soup cans" I am not a fan. However, what I need to clarify is what I mean by that phrase. I do not like labels in that we spend too much time justifying what they mean and they always tend to spiral into debate over right and wrong.

Now when I talk about labels, I am not talking about the term "Transgender". Indeed if you look at the definition of label while Transgender could be included it does not match in my opinion:

Label: a word or phrase which is used to describe a person, group, or thing, but which is unfair or not correct e.g., Cross Dressers are all perverts . . . or all transgendered people want to change sexes. The label and the connection is linked to a misrepresentation/understanding of the term.

In my book Transgender is a community of strong, proud and supportive individuals all working (in whatever way they deem fit) toward a common goal . . . acceptance .

Community: a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.

IMO transgender is not a label so "yes", I will identify myself as "Transgendered" to anyone who asks. Where this goes wrong and I tend to get a bit miffed is when we "the community" spend way too much time trying to figure out what "transgendered" means. Specifically what constitutes membership or who has the right to call themselves "TG". Should I be allowed to call myself TG because I go out in public, tell others . . . or . . . do I have to fight the good fight and storm the ramparts of public opinion, march in pride parades. This is when "community" transcends into "labelling".

Goodness . . . let's just accept the fact we are all different and that we belong to this wonderful community of strong, vibrant, productive, normal beings and stop trying to put a definition on the term TG. We are not a label (that is the point of my tag line) we are a community and the sooner we realize that and just go on being in whatever direction we need to go (to each their own) then we can move toward acceptance.

So are labels for soup cans? You bet because "soup" is not a community. Is a label or series of labels sufficient to describe what it means to be Transgendered? IMHO absolutely not as we are too eclectic to have one definition. We do share common attitudes, interests and goals and that my friends is what makes us a community . . . all of us. Not some narrowly defined label.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Isha, There are some people that love labels not me, But like a wise lady once said, To each their Own.

[Katey888]

Isha,

How could I disagree... (particularly when your frustration is beginning to show... ) - and I don't disagree with what you're saying in the context of community.

I'm more than happy to put my hand up here with respect to holding a TG banner... Of course, being constrained by my closet in other ways does rather reduce the impact of what I can do, but that doesn't prevent my unequivocal support of that in principle.

My only caution would be just what that word means to others... Good old Wikipedia has a fairly comprehensive entry that I can subscribe to - but look on something like 'Yahoo answers' and there are some scary and plain stupid interpretations... but I suppose a modicum of misunderstanding is always going to be there whatever and however we try to define it.

So - now that's sorted, what next? Or do we wait for someone to disagree and bundle 'em...

Katey x

[Marcelle]

No frustration on my part Katey I just want to point out there is a clear distinction between the pejorative use of labels and what constitutes community. Transgender IMHO is not a label. If some choose to make it a label (pejorative use) or others try to label it to exclude/include others or even themselves, that is their right . . . who am I to judge.

This is my view on things and people can agree or disagree as they see fit . . . no harm no foul, no bounce no play I just wanted clarify that when it comes to labels (pejorative use or wrong use) IHMO that dog don't hunt.

Hugs

Isha

[Donnagirl]

I've decided I'm normal.... It's everyone else needs a label...

[NicoleScott]

Isha, as many have pointed out, the problem with labels is that we can't agree on definitions. Transgender, for example.
Oh, the irony, that you define "label" with your own spin - as descriptions that are unfair or incorrect.
No wonder we argue about labels - we can't agree on a definition of the very word.

[Marcelle]

Isha . . . Oh, the irony, that you define "label" with your own spin - as descriptions that are unfair or incorrect.

Nicole,

Not my spin on the definition but Webster's and a whole host of other dictionary definitions. The other definitions range from "tiny piece of paper used to identify some item" to "tag/description to define ownership or manufacture". So no "irony" intended just my understanding of the term label as defined by others

Hugs

Isha

[Ineke Vashon]

The only label I like to see is "half price, today only"

Ineke

[JenniferYager]

Isha, what is it with you and soup? What did soup ever do to you?

SoupCanSad.jpg

[Zylia]

OK so labels are generally unpleasant and we shouldn't apply them to people. That however doesn't stop a guy in a dress from being a cross-dresser. It's a word to describe a person with certain attributes within a certain context and most of these are pretty clear. We as a 'community' however are very good at muddying the waters with all that postmodern "nothing is true" BS. I think cross-dressers are as much a community as people with prescription glasses.

[Taylor Ray]

We as a 'community' however are very good at muddying the waters with all that postmodern "nothing is true" BS.

This is most definitely not true, in the sense of truth-telling. But in regards to "truth" in the sense of real truth, the label "truth" is more appropriately delegated to non-descriptive labels (as opposed to truthfully descriptive ones.) This is especially true when one is attempting to tell the truth about wearing dresses and playing the guitar.

[LilSissyStevie]

Wow, I don't think even Judith Butler could have said it better.

[Lucy_Bella]

But in regards to "truth" in the sense of real truth, the label "truth" is more appropriately delegated to non-descriptive labels (as opposed to truthfully descriptive ones.) This is especially true when one is attempting to tell the truth about wearing dresses and playing the guitar.

Know what Stevie?..Yeah.. The truth ....Plain and simple ..Brings a lot of understanding..

[Zylia]

This is most definitely not true, in the sense of truth-telling. But in regards to "truth" in the sense of real truth, the label "truth" is more appropriately delegated to non-descriptive labels (as opposed to truthfully descriptive ones.) This is especially true when one is attempting to tell the truth about wearing dresses and playing the guitar.

You just blew my mind. I am Zylia (just a label I use to identify myself), I am me. None of us but me are me, we are all ourselves. A dress is really just a label for something to cover up your naked body. There are no big truths, only small realities.

[Michelle789]

There are no labels with regards to being TG. There is no right or wrong way to be TG.

Dressing for sexual gratification may be strictly a fetish, or may be a sign of being TG or TS. You may or may not end up transitioning.

Many stay fetish dressers for life. Many go from being a fetish dresser to a non-fetish dresser but remain male identified CDs. Many go from being a fetish dresser to being a TG but not TS nor transitioning. And many go from being a fetish dresser to be a TS and end up transitioning.

There is no right or wrong way to be trans, or to be a cross-dresser.

You may be a male-identified CD. You may be a TG but not TS. You might be dual gender, bigender, two-spirit, genderqueer, androgynous, or something else entirely. You may be a TS.

I'm trying to learn that it's important to be me, my authentic self, without worrying about labels or what others think. This isn't easy, but I'm working at it.

We are all God's children. I am me, and you are you.

[GretchenJ]

There are no labels with regards to being TG. There is no right or wrong way to be TG

Many stay fetish dressers for life...

We are all God's children. I am me, and you are you.

Correct, there are so many darn variables it is impossible to make a conclusive definition.. And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, does it ?

Amen to that.

[Lucy_Bella]

Correct, there are so many darn variables it is impossible to make a conclusive definition.. And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, does it ?

Amen to that.

Correct I feel the same" gender spectrum" ...

Some may Identify fast and may skip all stages ( Trans Sexual ).. This is Gender Identity..You want your Bio sex to match your Gender..

Some may start out dressing as a "fetish" or "because it feels right" and the feminine/masculine feelings may grow or become a part of life..( dual gender /trans gender ) some may even go full time opposite of Bio sex but never transition and some may..transition... But many may dress only part time This can be both Gender Identity or After Fetish..

Some may not go past the fetish stage but may fully dress by adding to the fetish over time .. The amount of time dressed could or can grow longer as the need for gratification drops or diminishes.. This is a different feeling not related to gender identity.. Not Trans Gender..

[Jenny Elwood]

Now girls, please don't fight. You made me reconsider the post I was about to make...

[Jacqueline Winona]

A thoughtful post deserves a thoughtful response, even though we don't agree on this one, Isha. In my opinion (and years of arguing over this hasn't changed my opinion at all, nor have I convinced anyone else I'm right), Transgender refers to people who are actively engaging in dressing, seeking a transition, actually transitioning, dating members of the same gender (whether pre or post transition) because they are members of the same gender. Yes, it's broad, but I don't see how it could ever apply to a hetero CD who dresses at home, doesn't interact with people while dressed except at costume parties, etc. The distinction, at least in the U.S., is that people in the first group in my example do suffer discrimination. Those of us at home don't, we can take or leave this. We don't have desires to date men when we are dressed, thus we really don't have that much in common with the rest of the LGB group. But those who do, or those who date women after or during transition, do relate to the rest of the LGB community. This does not mean, as many accuse, that we have no sympathy for the LGBT community or are afraid to admit we're a part of it, we just do not and never will see how what we do has anything in common with those who are living their lives in the public eye while dressed.
Maybe this helps, maybe it doesn't. By analogy, it would be like me saying "anyone who dresses out of their home on a regular basis is really a transsexual, regardless of whether they know it or believe it." My statement wouldn't be accurate and would probably offend a number of people, as not everyone wants to be part of the bigger group or should be lumped into an umbrella group.

[mechamoose]

Hi Isha!

(big fan)

Part of it is labels (their labels irk us more than our labels do), part of it is community. I'm not a 'standard' CD person. After swimming in the waters here for while, I recognize that I'm an outlier.

We all naturally want to feel included and accepted. We want a community that supports that. This is an awesome space.

If I showed up at a gathering of members who passed or transitioned, I recognize that I would stick out like a big red flag. A large part of me would tell me to NOT show up so that I didn't wreck things for those of you who have put in so much time and effort. I'd *still* want to be there though, because that is where I'd find people who *get* it.

>conflicted<

-MM

[NicoleScott]

OK, Isha, I stand corrected. I did find a source (but not "a whole host of other...") that included "inaccurate" in its definition. Definitions are arranged from most commonly used to least, and this one was way down the list. I guess this illustrates the problem with some labels: some people see them as neutral descriptive terms and others see them in a negative way.

[Zylia]

Kinda like how 'cross-dresser' is a neutral descriptive term according to some while others see it in a negative way. Coincidence?

[mechamoose]

Zylia.. cross dresser is the simple, easy label. People tend to grab on to that first. More than that requires more involvement, which requires that you care more than you would with a casual (public) encounter.

People who know me and are my friends get it, I don't expect the average person on the street to do so.

[Katey888]

In my opinion (and years of arguing over this hasn't changed my opinion at all, nor have I convinced anyone else I'm right), Transgender refers to people who are actively engaging in dressing, seeking a transition, actually transitioning, dating members of the same gender (whether pre or post transition) because they are members of the same gender. Yes, it's broad, but I don't see how it could ever apply to a hetero CD who dresses at home, doesn't interact with people while dressed except at costume parties, etc.

Jacqueline - I think you've demonstrated part of the problem.. Your definition here is way different from mine, and probably from Isha's, and certainly from Wikipedia (not that I'm suggesting it's the absolute resource for everything, but it is a good starting point...). Wiki clearly includes transvestite or cross-dresser in transgender identities... Question for you, from me, would be: are you prepared to accept a 3rd party definition of TG?

The rest of your post is a good example of how definitions and myth mix and I think relates to how some here may be offended by the classification TG... If you asked me six months ago if I was TG I would have told you no... That was my ignorance at work... having read a lot here and other academic papers, I am now better informed.

We have to be prepared to be open-minded not just about who we share this community with, but also if we are prepared to accept objective views of how the community can be classified. If we can't do that, it will be more difficult for some parts of our community to make progress - not impossible, but more difficult...

Katey x

[Jacqueline Winona]

Jacqueline - I think you've demonstrated part of the problem.. Your definition here is way different from mine, and probably from Isha's, and certainly from Wikipedia (not that I'm suggesting it's the absolute resource for everything, but it is a good starting point...). Wiki clearly includes transvestite or cross-dresser in transgender identities... Question for you, from me, would be: are you prepared to accept a 3rd party definition of TG?

The rest of your post is a good example of how definitions and myth mix and I think relates to how some here may be offended by the classification TG... If you asked me six months ago if I was TG I would have told you no... That was my ignorance at work... having read a lot here and other academic papers, I am now better informed.

We have to be prepared to be open-minded not just about who we share this community with, but also if we are prepared to accept objective views of how the community can be classified. If we can't do that, it will be more difficult for some parts of our community to make progress - not impossible, but more difficult...

Katey x

Katey, thank you for the comment and question, I appreciate both the inquisitiveness and the tone of your comment. I asked myself, why does this term bother me so much, and after a lot of soul searching researched it and did find a definition that I believe is appropriate and is in line with my thinking. From UC Berkeley:
Transgender

Transgender

Transgender (sometimes shortened to trans or TG) people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. To understand this, one must understand the difference between biological sex, which is one's body (genitals, chromosomes, ect.), and social gender, which refers to levels of masculinity and femininity. Often, society conflates sex and gender, viewing them as the same thing. But, gender and sex are not the same thing.Transgender people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. For example, a female with a masculine gender identity or who identifies as a man.
An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman. Transgender is not a sexual orientation;transgender people may have any sexual orientation. It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such.
As you can see, there are two definitions, and you agree with one, I agree with just the first. The law generally recognizes the first definition, but not the second (not always, of course). To me, TG is a lot more than dressing once in a while, popping on a message board every few weeks, etc. If the second applies, are we really TG all the time or only when we dress? Can the prom kings in the post above call themselves TG because they are cross-dressing for an occasion? I see this as part of your core-being. Either you are all TG or you're just not, and I'm not. A few years ago a particularly obnoxious poster (long gone now) tried convincing all of us that the difference between a CD and a TS was "two years." In other words, once you admitted you were a CD you were bound to be a TS in time. I thought that was the most ridiculous comment I'd ever heard then, and still do. But the notion that we are all TG whether we want to be or not strikes me as being nearly as incredulously wrong as the "two years" line. I support anyone who claims to be a TG to a point (never going to agree with sports, having a really hard time thinking any genetic male should ever be in my daughter's lockerroom, but that's the dad in me), but no,I'm not willing to bend on this one. This isn't convincing me that the kid in the saggy pants and baseball cap who utters strange sounds is really not a bad guy as my daughter's boyfriend, this is about who I am, and on that I don't compromise. Before I again (yes. I've been through this argument several times here) get accused of not supporting TG rights, know that I do support the core beliefs of TG's and empathize strongly with them. But I can't pretend that I am TG when I know in my heart that I am not.