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Thread: Label vs Community

  1. #26
    Bad Influence mechamoose's Avatar
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  2. #27
    Super Moderator GretchenJ's Avatar
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    Hi Isha,

    You causing trouble again

    Labels are a problem, when there is someone who has a disagreement with it. Cross-dresser is a non controversial term/label because it is a noun. Nouns are easy because it is digital (yes/no)

    Transgender is a different term, because to some, it implies that the end result is either gay or SRS. Part of this is that another label that does this is 'LBGT' in which we comprise a very small minority of that community. In my opinion, this is not the case at all. In my world

    • Not all cross-dressers are transgendered
      All transsexuals are transgendered
      If you dress for sexual gratification, you are probably not a TG
      If you like to dress, but underneath you are still a guy, probably not TG
      If you dress to help come to grips with your feminine side of your personality, you are probably TG.
      If you feel that your personality is part male and part female, and clothes are just a tool to enhance that, but is not necessary, then you are probably TG


    Based upon my own and only my own, I consider myself to be TG. What I do know, without hesitation, that Isha is spot on correct. - you may disagree with the label that you or whoever has place upon you, but this is a very intelligent, observant, supportive to a fault community, and that I am very proud to be a member of

  3. #28
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    @Gretchen - being transgender doesn't have anything to do with your sexual orientation.

    Also, whether it's sexual for you or not doesn't really matter. All it does is suggest you probably aren't at a stage where you'll transition. (Maybe...) Unfortunately it doesn't predict your future.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Jacqueline Winona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katey888 View Post
    Jacqueline - I think you've demonstrated part of the problem.. Your definition here is way different from mine, and probably from Isha's, and certainly from Wikipedia (not that I'm suggesting it's the absolute resource for everything, but it is a good starting point...). Wiki clearly includes transvestite or cross-dresser in transgender identities... Question for you, from me, would be: are you prepared to accept a 3rd party definition of TG?

    The rest of your post is a good example of how definitions and myth mix and I think relates to how some here may be offended by the classification TG... If you asked me six months ago if I was TG I would have told you no... That was my ignorance at work... having read a lot here and other academic papers, I am now better informed.

    We have to be prepared to be open-minded not just about who we share this community with, but also if we are prepared to accept objective views of how the community can be classified. If we can't do that, it will be more difficult for some parts of our community to make progress - not impossible, but more difficult...

    Katey x
    Katey, thank you for the comment and question, I appreciate both the inquisitiveness and the tone of your comment. I asked myself, why does this term bother me so much, and after a lot of soul searching researched it and did find a definition that I believe is appropriate and is in line with my thinking. From UC Berkeley:
    Transgender

    Transgender

    Transgender (sometimes shortened to trans or TG) people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. To understand this, one must understand the difference between biological sex, which is one's body (genitals, chromosomes, ect.), and social gender, which refers to levels of masculinity and femininity. Often, society conflates sex and gender, viewing them as the same thing. But, gender and sex are not the same thing.Transgender people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. For example, a female with a masculine gender identity or who identifies as a man.
    An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman. Transgender is not a sexual orientation;transgender people may have any sexual orientation. It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such.
    As you can see, there are two definitions, and you agree with one, I agree with just the first. The law generally recognizes the first definition, but not the second (not always, of course). To me, TG is a lot more than dressing once in a while, popping on a message board every few weeks, etc. If the second applies, are we really TG all the time or only when we dress? Can the prom kings in the post above call themselves TG because they are cross-dressing for an occasion? I see this as part of your core-being. Either you are all TG or you're just not, and I'm not. A few years ago a particularly obnoxious poster (long gone now) tried convincing all of us that the difference between a CD and a TS was "two years." In other words, once you admitted you were a CD you were bound to be a TS in time. I thought that was the most ridiculous comment I'd ever heard then, and still do. But the notion that we are all TG whether we want to be or not strikes me as being nearly as incredulously wrong as the "two years" line. I support anyone who claims to be a TG to a point (never going to agree with sports, having a really hard time thinking any genetic male should ever be in my daughter's lockerroom, but that's the dad in me), but no,I'm not willing to bend on this one. This isn't convincing me that the kid in the saggy pants and baseball cap who utters strange sounds is really not a bad guy as my daughter's boyfriend, this is about who I am, and on that I don't compromise. Before I again (yes. I've been through this argument several times here) get accused of not supporting TG rights, know that I do support the core beliefs of TG's and empathize strongly with them. But I can't pretend that I am TG when I know in my heart that I am not.

  5. #30
    Valley Girl Michelle789's Avatar
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    There are no labels with regards to being TG. There is no right or wrong way to be TG.

    Dressing for sexual gratification may be strictly a fetish, or may be a sign of being TG or TS. You may or may not end up transitioning.

    Many stay fetish dressers for life. Many go from being a fetish dresser to a non-fetish dresser but remain male identified CDs. Many go from being a fetish dresser to being a TG but not TS nor transitioning. And many go from being a fetish dresser to be a TS and end up transitioning.

    There is no right or wrong way to be trans, or to be a cross-dresser.

    You may be a male-identified CD. You may be a TG but not TS. You might be dual gender, bigender, two-spirit, genderqueer, androgynous, or something else entirely. You may be a TS.

    I'm trying to learn that it's important to be me, my authentic self, without worrying about labels or what others think. This isn't easy, but I'm working at it.

    We are all God's children. I am me, and you are you.
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  6. #31
    Super Moderator GretchenJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulaQ View Post
    @Gretchen - being transgender doesn't have anything to do with your sexual orientation.

    Also, whether it's sexual for you or not doesn't really matter. All it does is suggest you probably aren't at a stage where you'll transition. (Maybe...) Unfortunately it doesn't predict your future.
    Hi Paula - totally agree with you! My point was that being bundled as the T in the LBGT, some people in error make that leap
    I think we are on the same page!

  7. #32
    Super Moderator GretchenJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle789 View Post
    There are no labels with regards to being TG. There is no right or wrong way to be TG

    Many stay fetish dressers for life...

    We are all God's children. I am me, and you are you.
    Correct, there are so many darn variables it is impossible to make a conclusive definition.. And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, does it ?

    Amen to that.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GretchenJ View Post
    Correct, there are so many darn variables it is impossible to make a conclusive definition.. And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, does it ?

    Amen to that.
    Correct I feel the same" gender spectrum" ...

    Some may Identify fast and may skip all stages ( Trans Sexual ).. This is Gender Identity..You want your Bio sex to match your Gender..

    Some may start out dressing as a "fetish" or "because it feels right" and the feminine/masculine feelings may grow or become a part of life..( dual gender /trans gender ) some may even go full time opposite of Bio sex but never transition and some may..transition... But many may dress only part time This can be both Gender Identity or After Fetish..

    Some may not go past the fetish stage but may fully dress by adding to the fetish over time .. The amount of time dressed could or can grow longer as the need for gratification drops or diminishes.. This is a different feeling not related to gender identity.. Not Trans Gender..
    I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.

  9. #34
    Silver Member Jilmac's Avatar
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    Hi Isha, and thanks for a very thought provoking thread. I often use the term "transgender" when describing our community, however when describing myself, I prefer bi gender which by my definition is a person who is just as comfortable presenting as a woman or a man.
    Luv and Jill


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  10. #35
    Member JenniferYager's Avatar
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    What did soup ever do to you?

    Isha, what is it with you and soup? What did soup ever do to you?

    SoupCanSad.jpg

  11. #36
    Full Geek Status Adriana Moretti's Avatar
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    Labels??? I thought all you cd's were gay? am i wrong? i like the label ( unique) I will take that anyday.

  12. #37
    Member Lady Slipper's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread has just made so mad I can't think of anything I can post that won't be deleted by the Mods. Wow, just wow, in this place of all places. I used to think the "tranny-er than thou" attitude was a myth. I see now how wrong I was, and that makes me terribly sad. If we can't hang together, we will surely hang separately.
    "Fear is the mind killer." Frank Herbert, Dune

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Slipper View Post
    I used to think the "tranny-er than thou" attitude was a myth. I see now how wrong I was, and that makes me terribly sad. If we can't hang together, we will surely hang separately.
    Hon, only a couple of us who are transsexual have even posted on this thread - I think mostly it's been me. If I've said anything to convey a "trannier than thou" attitude, please PM me about it - I can assure you that this has *never* been my intention. I have nothing but love and respect for the CDs of this forum, and consider us all to be sisters. But if I've said anything that has offended you, please let me know and give me a chance to explain myself, and hopefully make things right. Because I agree with you that we have to stick together.

  14. #39
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    I kinda jumped ship because of Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies, but I only see "not tranny at all" attitudes in this thread.

  15. #40
    Aussie girl enjoying life Michelle (Oz)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Slipper View Post
    Wow, this thread has just made so mad I can't think of anything I can post that won't be deleted by the Mods. Wow, just wow, in this place of all places. I used to think the "tranny-er than thou" attitude was a myth. I see now how wrong I was, and that makes me terribly sad. If we can't hang together, we will surely hang separately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zylia View Post
    I kinda jumped ship because of Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies, but I only see "not tranny at all" attitudes in this thread.
    I had decided to ignore this thread having the same reaction as Lady Slipper and Zylia. I just find this sort of discussion as WTF ... if 'we' can't work it out what chance does the public have. Do we simply spread even greater confusion?

    As I posted in a similar thread the world around us does apply labels whether we like it or not. The vast majority see life in very simple, clear and easily understood terms - male or female. The 'GLB' part of 'GLTB' also fit into that simple dichotomy - perhaps the reason we are isolated.

    I am very comfortable labelling myself as TG. In some ways such a label makes it easier for me to understand and accept myself. I am accepted in the community as me and doubt that friends and acquaintances waste much time trying to understand me.

    What I won't enter into is an unfulfilling and unproductive debate about whether I am more or less TG than others, or whether as a CDer I even qualify. It is better IMO for us to accept that labels will be used and to shape their use than to debate the finer points well beyond society's (mis)understanding.

    Michelle
    Last edited by Michelle (Oz); 04-23-2014 at 03:07 AM.

  16. #41
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Isha, there are many disputes here about labels, but I don't think it's because members use the terms pejoratively. Who here will say that their fellow members are perverts?

    There are, however, disagreements about what the terms mean. Here is a sampling of the many ways that people define "transgender" for themselves. And "crossdresser". And "fetish".

    Transgender: an umbrella term for groups of people who transcend culturally defined categories of gender, including gender roles and/or presentation. This includes DQ, DK, CD, genderqueer, bigender, gender non-conforming, gender-variant, etc.

    Transgender: a synonym for transsexual (this is used extensively in the media).

    Transgender: a term used by transsexuals who wish to distance themselves from the "sexual" part of the term "transsexual".

    Transgender: a term used by transsexuals who do not wish to have SRS.

    Transgender: a term used by individuals who feel they are more than "crossdresser", but not quite "transsexual".

    Transgender: a term used by crossdressers who believe that the term "crossdresser" has a negative, fetish association.

    Transgender: a term used by individuals because it's just plain easier. They are tired of all the disagreements about all the terms.

    Crossdresser: a term used by men who engage in the behavior solely for the purpose of sexual gratification.

    Crossdresser: a term used by individuals who need to express femininity for other than sexual reasons.

    Crossdresser: a term used by men who dress in feminine clothing but who are adamant they are men and so adamant that any term that has "gender" in it (transgender, crossgender) does not apply to them. They don't feel they cross any gender barriers.

    Crossdresser: a term used by individuals who present fully as women.

    Crossdresser: a term used by individuals who present as men wearing feminine clothing.

    Fetish (older definition): a perverted sexual practice.

    Fetish (newer definition): an alternate, valid, healthy preference for non-standard sexual practices.


    Isha … can you see why so many people here shy away from defining themselves? No one can agree on any of the terms! At least the term "transsexual" is fairly straight forward … except even this term carries with it disagreements as to whether a non-transitioning and/or non SRS individual is transsexual.

    I like Benjamin's categories. Levels I to VI. No disagreements necessary.
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-23-2014 at 03:24 AM.
    Reine

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    I think one of the big reasons people here don't like the term transgender is that being lumped into a category with transsexuals seems pretty extreme (and rather scary) to someone who's "just a CD". It's especially scary for wives. It's a category that seems to have this huge question mark hanging over it - will you transition?

    Of course most on this forum won't *ever* transition.

    But some of you will, and the truth is, nobody knows who will transition and who won't transition in advance.

    It's a scary thing to have dangling over your heads - I acknowledge this.

  18. #43
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    Transgender..The original label coined by professionals for Trans Sexual because many Trans people did not like "sex" in the original label for Trans Sexual..

    Why the label became a umbrella for all Trans people and how is not certain but many believe it happened due to the internet from Individuals typing in Trans* with a asterisk* for "Trans Masculine" or "Trans Vestite" for discovering their own experience .. But older 80's GLBT message boards suggest the term was always T*.

    However in the 90's Trans* was the chosen click for describing the younger generations experience while searching the internet which could mean a new label today is only one click away..
    I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.

  19. #44
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella View Post
    Transgender..The original label coined by professionals for Trans Sexual because many Trans people did not like "sex" in the original label for Trans Sexual..
    Lucy, sorry to disagree again, but the term "transgender" (or transgenderist) originates from the 1970s when Virginia Prince wanted a term that would describe her. She wanted to live as a woman full time while retaining her male body. She didn't feel that the term "transsexual" applied to her because she did not want to change her physical sex.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Prince
    Reine

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Lucy, sorry to disagree again, but the term "transgender" (or transgenderist) originates from the 1970s]
    Actually no it didn't in fact she never used the word transgender until the 80's..


    Virginia Prince is oftentimes given credit for coining the term “transgenderist” and “transgenderism” in 1978. In 1977, Prince writes of three types of different types of trans experiences: “regular transvestite or femmiphile”; class two—those males who live as women openly and in society; and class three—those who undergo or who “seriously plan” sex change surgery. There’s no mention of “transgenderism,” “transgender,” “transgenderal” or “transgenderist.” She goes on to wrote: “People in class two know the difference (between sexual and genderal identity) and consciously elect to change their gender identity without surgery . . . Since class two people recognize the difference between sex and gender we can make a conscious decision to become a woman—a psycho-social gender creature.” As late as 1977, Prince is not using this term.

    It should be noted that when Prince was 81 years old, she said that she the thought she might have said the term “transgenderist” at a conference in 1974 or 75; however, around that same time, she also told Leslie Feinberg that she coined the term in the late 1980s:

    “The term transgenderist was first introduced into the English language by trans warrior Virginia Prince. Virginia told me, ‘I coined the noun transgenderist in 1987 or ’88. There had to be some name for people like myself who trans the gender barrier – meaning somebody who lives full time in the gender opposite to their anatomy. I have not transed the sex barrier.’” – Transgender Warriors by Leslie Feinberg, 1996, page X of introduction


    I should also note that prior to that being "coined" People who lived opposite of their bio sex were considered Transexuals.. I think again we are agreeing ( so when I said TS it was meaning pre 80's logic )
    Last edited by Lucy_Bella; 04-26-2014 at 05:21 AM.
    I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.

  21. #46
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Wikipedia indicates the term was first coined in 1965 by psychiatrist John F. Oliven ? And first used by Virginia Prince in 1969 in an issue of Transvestia? If we trust Wiki isn't it plausible the term was being used from the late 60s on in discussions amongst folk not dissimilar to ourselves, trying to understand and describe the what and why of all the flavours of our shared passion?

    Now we're getting into debating origins of a word which we still can't completely agree on the meaning of!

    Reine - your earlier post listing the diverse interpretations of both TG and CD (and probably not all of them either...) was very pertinent to Isha's original point - we sometimes seem to place more emphasis on fragmentation than community; defining our own little silo rather than accepting we are part of a bigger picture, perhaps because justifiably, some of us are reticent to be categorised with others. Perfectly understandable, as I believe there also existed (or exists) similar semantic conflicts amongst the LGB community.

    How about we put TV, TG and TS together as the 'BIG-T' community? Or just 'T' or Trans? That is common to all the descriptors....? And there can't be anyone who doesn't fit under that... can there...???

    (OK - I know it won't fly, but I felt I had to try... )

    Can we please also try to keep the discussion on Isha's OP around Community?

    Now I must go back to negotiating a truce between Kiev and Moscow...

    Da svidaniya, tovarich...

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    Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear"
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  22. #47
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katey888 View Post
    Reine - your earlier post listing the diverse interpretations of both TG and CD (and probably not all of them either...) was very pertinent to Isha's original point - we sometimes seem to place more emphasis on fragmentation than community; defining our own little silo rather than accepting we are part of a bigger picture, perhaps because justifiably, some of us are reticent to be categorised with others. Perfectly understandable, as I believe there also existed (or exists) similar semantic conflicts amongst the LGB community.
    Totally agree.

    But at the same time, I think it would be useful for researchers perhaps to come up with a system of identity (adequate and precise words are very helpful for those in the process of self-identification) in order to differentiate among the major groupings in this community. And preferably this system of identity would not suggest that one level is "more than" or "less than" another.

    The community may be formed of millions of individuals all with their own personalities and sense of identity, but still there is a finite number of major groupings of individuals ... although it is foolish, IMO to expect everyone to fit in only three separate categories CD, TG, & TS. We all know the quibbling that goes on trying to decide what those terms mean. We do need to get rid of qualifiers like "true", "genuine", "pseudo", "primary" vs. "secondary", etc. Or even words like "fetish", which many people take to mean "deprived" or "perverted" when increasingly it is considered a healthy alternate sexual expression.
    Reine

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    I used to think we were all scared of our sexuality. Now I realize that there are too many types of sexual desires (and their absence) among us to even countenance categorization. In my experience the things we seem to share, invariably, are intelligence and wit...xx

  24. #49
    Senior Member Jacqueline Winona's Avatar
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    True, Jane, very true. What we have in common are 1) we are all male, unless we are female, and 2) we all agree, except when we disagree. We are so very different. HRC recognizes this as well (from their website):
    Is there a difference between cross-dressing and being transgender?

    Yes, cross-dressing refers to people who wear clothing and/or makeup and accessories that are not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

    Many people who cross-dress are comfortable with their assigned sex and generally do not wish to change it. Cross-dressing is a form of gender expression that is not necessarily indicative of a person’s gender identity or sexual orientation.

  25. #50
    Senior Member KellyJameson's Avatar
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    A label when applied to oneself can be a useful tool to deepen self awareness and understanding.

    The problem with labels is while they may expand ones understanding of self they also increase the risk of limiting the very understanding one seeks because by there very nature they are self limiting so you in essence have placed yourself in a box.

    A label also can be loaded emotionally because once applied to the self or others it carries with it the cultural and social history of the word.

    I associated the word transvestite with crazy and mentally ill (Rocky Horror Picture Show) for many years and this was my own internalized transsexual phobia which at its core was the fear of a deeper truth that my subconscious mind was aware of.

    Typically those on the LGBT spectrum , crossdressers, ect... have not been shown in a positive light in western culture so there can be great resistance to applying the label to oneself which than prevents or slows down self acceptance and self understanding.

    Applying the label can trigger fear in others who may at some point become comfortable applying the label once they have moved beyond their fears.

    The label becomes part of ones identity. Think of the labels that are readily embraced such as brave, smart,wise,couragous, ect...

    If the label casts the person in a negative light in their own eyes or they fear it will in the eyes of others or if it defines them in ways they do not agree with or are not ready to agree with than there will likely be resistance.

    In the end it is my opinion that labels are private matters and it is best to refrain from applying them to others.

    Usefull but dangerous tools toward enlightenment.

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