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  1. #1
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    Transgender vs Gender Nonconforming

    I've been doing some research into the two terms Transgender verses Gender Nonconforming as it relates to myself. Both terms are prominently in the Standards of Care version 7 some of us might use. And seeing how many persons dislike the term transgender I decided to research it. Before this I thought I was transgendered CD, cross-dresser. I did not understand why many were rejecting it. Now I don't think transgender applies to myself either given what I found.

    Transgender's purest meaning is...
    1. A person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

    So seeing this it seems transgender is the wrong word to describe myself. It has it links in the gender binary which is not what I'm trying to present as. I'm not trying to be the opposite but a mix of male and female.

    Gender Nonconforming is two words and so I'll look at them separately.

    Gender's purest meaning is...
    2. Sexual identity, (which I see as gender identity), especially in relation to society or culture.

    Nonconforming's purest meaning is...
    a. 1. Not conforming; declining conformity; especially, not conforming to the established church of a country.

    So putting Gender Nonconforming all together I get...
    1. Gender identity that is declining conformity.

    So for myself a Gender Nonconforming CD seems to be the better terms. Now keep in mind I know who I am. I don't like labels very much. But if I'm going to describe myself to someone I want to use the closest terms possible with these least possibility of being misunderstood. I also use these terms / words as a starting point and not a definitive definition of myself.

    So given this information... what words might you use... or do you have another term(s)?

    Transgender... Gender Nonconforming... or ... your word(s)
    Last edited by sanderlay; 04-24-2014 at 08:29 PM. Reason: grammar
    Don't suppress who you are inside your heart. Let the world know how special you really are. Don't forget to smile as you share. It will come through in your beautiful words.

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  2. #2
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    Transgender covers everyone...Gender non conforming has a lot of scope as well.
    It SURE is my hair ! I have the receipt and the box it came in !

  3. #3
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    I agree with Rogina. We can parse these terms until they are practically devoid of meaning, but why bother.
    Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one.

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  4. #4
    Isn't Life Grand? AllieSF's Avatar
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    I am transgender and I crossdress. I like the umbrella idea when trying to explain to others when I need to explain. I also think that the word "transgender" sounds better to others or at least to me anyway. I try to put myself in that other person's shoes for a minute when they first see me. here in the USA crossdresser is a pretty accepted term regardless of what many may think that it means. I think "transgender" with all the recent LGBT legislation, controversies about rights also may carry a little more weight elevating my activity/hobby to something frivolous and maybe weird for some to a little higher level. It is probably just a dream on mine, but maybe it does make a difference to the many strangers I meet over time, so if it helps a few that may have a multiplying affect to help others better understand us and maybe better tolerate and accept us. It has been, is and will be a long process to get where we want everyone else to be. But one step forward is always worth it.

  5. #5
    Gold Member Read only Rachael Leigh's Avatar
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    You know I'm good for me just MtF crossdresser I mean that's what I am since for me my gender is always male it works for me.

  6. #6
    A lady in the making..... Erica Marie's Avatar
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    Gender non-conforming or gender neutral may refer to outer appearance. What we feel inside cannot be labeled. Everyday I struggle with labels, when will it be alright to just be who we are?
    Erica

  7. #7
    Member devida's Avatar
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    Oh I think it's OK to have labels. They are obviously useful in bringing about social change and they are also useful for processing the large amounts of information that we all experience day to day. They don't have to be perfectly individually accurate. I mean I know we are all snowflakes and all different from each other but it's OK to use the shorthand of labels if you don't want to bore someone silly with your entire life history and your many, many opinions about yourself. So using the shorthand I am non binary transgender. I am not cross dressing because I am presenting the gender I am, which is somewhere between male and female. My manner, dress, gestures, outlook, etc., etc., are somewhere between the gender stereotypes of the macho man and the feminine woman. You want to be more specific, go for it. You want to have special pronouns because you actually identify your gender with the droids in Star Wars, go for it. I will do my best to remember the way in which you want to be referred. If it makes you happy to be thought of as the gender of forest faerie, I'm down with that and I will refer to you as fae. What's the big deal? We own our own vocabulary. It's just good manners to use the vocabulary the person I address requests. If a woman requests I call her Ms, but not Miss., OK. If a man says he is actually they, OK. However does this harm me? You can call me anything, btw. I don't care. I know who I am and I don't need you to confirm it. But if you do, let me do you that favor. I am happy to make my mind work just a little bit harder, any time at all.

  8. #8
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    Thank you to everyone for your opinions, information and links on this subject.

    I've continued to look up definitions about Transgender from various sites. The pattern I'm seeing is that some dictionary websites seem to have older definitions, some 10 to 20 years old, or a more condensed definition that lack the details. As Wikipedia put it for transgender, …

    "The precise definition for transgender is changing..."

    So that might be part of the reason. Also in Standards of Care version 7 a statement is made...

    "WPATH also acknowledges that many terms used in relation to this population are not ideal. For example, the terms transsexual and transvestite—and, some would argue, the more recent term transgender—have been applied to people in an objectifying fashion. Yet such terms have been more or less adopted by many people who are making their best effort to make themselves understood. …"
    (pg 101 PDF or pg 95 on the page)

    So this is something to consider when choosing a term to describe yourself. And I do hope that the definition that WPATH is using, for transgender that Reine posted and is in the sticky section, will be more universally accepted in time or a new word will be created, used and accepted by all communities for those who need it.

    Also everyone has the RIGHT to use terms or words that seem to best apply to themselves. I'm not trying to apply a term, word or label to ANY person. But with that said...

    I don't like to modify existing words and muddle or confuse their meaning. I'd rather use an existing word, if possible, to describe myself with it's original meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zylia View Post
    ... or is it somehow important that your gender expression differs from what is normative at any time as opposed to only when you're 'en femme'?
    Yes, that's a big part the point. I don't use 'en femme' because I'm not presenting as a woman. Mine is a mixed presentation, non-binary.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    Gender-nonconformity doesn't refer to someone who is transsexual. WPATH does make a distinction between TSs and gender-nonconforming people.
    Yes. This is another reason why the term Gender-nonconformity works better for myself. I have no plans to modify my body and become a transsexual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adina View Post
    To the general public you will get maybe 30-60 seconds to explain your presentation verbally, in print perhaps 2 sentences before they make an initial assessment of you.
    Well put. KIS, Keep it simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllieSF View Post
    ... I try to put myself in that other person's shoes for a minute when they first see me. ...
    An excellent idea. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erica Marie View Post
    Gender non-conforming or gender neutral may refer to outer appearance. What we feel inside cannot be labeled. ...
    Perhaps. But with my presentation, non-binary, I'm making an attempt to show a person what I feel inside as regards to my gender identity. It is however only a starting point and can start a conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Drawer View Post
    Someone on this site once said that definitions are a tool to get us closer to an accurate description of who or what we are.
    Exactly. They are only a starting point to help another person gain some insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by devida View Post
    ... I am non binary transgender. I am not cross dressing because I am presenting the gender I am, which is somewhere between male and female. My manner, dress, gestures, outlook, etc., etc., are somewhere between the gender stereotypes of the macho man and the feminine woman. …
    Thank you for all your words and well said. And I like how you are NOT cross-dressing because they are YOUR clothes for YOU.
    Don't suppress who you are inside your heart. Let the world know how special you really are. Don't forget to smile as you share. It will come through in your beautiful words.

    Your Sister/Brother,
    Debbie/Steve

  9. #9
    Full-Time Duality NathalieX66's Avatar
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    I agree with the last post by devida. It describes who I am.
    Me, I picked a place on the map, and this is where I ended up. I don't see life as penis vs. vagina, male vs. female, it goes way beyond that. We are not so simple.

  10. #10
    Valley Girl Michelle789's Avatar
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    Transgender is an umbrella term for anyone who's gender identity or gender expression is different from their assigned birth sex. Gender non-conforming is anyone whose gender expression doesn't conform to the expectations of their assigned birth sex, or the gender they identify with. At least that's what it means to me.

    Personally I'm trying to remove myself from labels.
    I've finally mastered the art of making salads. My favorite is a delicious Mediterranean salad.

  11. #11
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    This is straight from the WPATH

    WPATH: World Professional Association for Transgender Health

    I should think that no one will argue with the WPATH definitions located in the Glossary, on page 222 of "The Standard of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender-Nonconforming People, Version 7" (2011)

    http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/...0SOC,%20V7.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by WPATH Glossary
    Gender-nonconforming: Adjective to describe individuals whose gender identity, role, or expression differs from what is normative for their assigned sex in a given culture and historical period.

    Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally define categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth.
    Gender-nonconforming describes an individual.

    Transgender describes a diverse group of individuals, among whom are the gender-nonconforming people.

    People get confused, because the media uses the term "transgender" extensively in stories that describe people who have or who are transitioning, or who appear in public presenting as their target gender. I suppose using the term "transgender" in the media makes sense. It's not up to the person writing the article to come up with a determination as to whether the subject is transsexual or not, since everyone's circumstances are different. So even in this sense, "transgender" is a catch-all term.
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-24-2014 at 10:58 PM.
    Reine

  12. #12
    Senior Member Jacqueline Winona's Avatar
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    This one again? Reine, I do disagree with it, I'll go with the Berkeley definition in the other thread over any others. Sanderly, you're def. of transgendered describes exactly what I think it means. Transgender implies a lot more than just dressing up once in a while.This is too subjective a subject to say everyone is part of the group, whether you like it or not. There's nothing wrong with identifying as TG, but there's also nothing wrong with saying you don't identify as such. It's a personal thing. We're kind of getting away from labeling people as this or that in every other part of life (I think I read that there are 54 ways to describe your gender on Facebook?), so why is it so important to come up with one definition here?

  13. #13
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Well Winona, you'll be disagreeing with an international board of experts on all matters trans.

    But, this is your prerogative. I can start calling my television set a watermellon if I want to. People won't know what I mean though when I describe where I saw last night's Mad Men episode.


    Edit - Sorry Winona, I hadn't read the Berkeley definition, but I agree with you now. It also defines transgender as an umbrella term for diverse individuals, among whom are crossdressers (transvestites), transgenderists, genderqueer, etc.

    http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resou...ms#transgender
    Last edited by ReineD; 04-24-2014 at 11:34 PM.
    Reine

  14. #14
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Potahto, potayto. Now, where did I leave my bra??
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  15. #15
    member stacycoral's Avatar
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    I like the term T-Girl myself, more than a cd and less than transexal.
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  16. #16
    Gold Member Read only Rachael Leigh's Avatar
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    See I guess for me is there are days I feel like blending my wardrobe or maybe one day add a little makeup but still look male mostly, than I want to go for the whole 9 yards wig makeup dress and all so not sure what that makes me.
    Not to mention days when I'm all guy, except for my shaved legs of course which not sure that's male or a female thing anymore

  17. #17
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Leigh, I guess this makes you a very fluid person.
    Reine

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    The 100th sheep GaleWarning's Avatar
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    When we can learn to stop labelling ourselves and others, then we truly will be on our way to simply being ...

  19. #19
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    Holy cow not this again!
    Why do some people have the overwhelming need to fit in a category on a chart that some so called scientific guy/girl at a university somewhere made up.
    Chances are the so called scientist gets a government grant and spews out psycho babble to make it look like he found the CD/TG red herring.
    How about live your life as you want and enjoy life being yourself.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Jennifer in CO's Avatar
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    I am what I was...I am not what I will be...

  21. #21
    Senior Member Jacqueline Winona's Avatar
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    Reine, respectfully, you omitted a very important part of that second definition: [It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such.B][/B]
    Experts in one field aren't always in agreement, or right for that matter. Berkeley is about as objective an educational organization as you'll find on pure academic issues, WPATH states that its message is to promote best practices and standards of care for Transgender health. http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?p...n_webpage=3910 You may think that I have my head in the sand on this one, but I'll go with the academics on defining terms, and the healthcare professionals on medical issues.

  22. #22
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beverley Sims View Post
    Just waiting for Katey to weigh in on this one now.
    Thought I'd give it an overnight on the off chance it might get deleted or even that someone could come up with an answer everyone would agree with... - oh well...

    Sanderlay's original question was: Transgender, Gender nonconforming or something else...?

    Something else for me, please...

    it strikes me that the professionals don't fully agree, we can't fully agree, but as long as we accept that we're somewhere in that weird gender-mixing, crossdressing, femme-presenting melange of males (here on mtf - not to exclude ftm but just invert everything) who have a need or desire to express or utilise feminine aspects of our being for whatever reason, isn't that enough?

    One wonders if other folk have the same type of discussions on other forums - I can only imagine a 2nd skin forum... "PVC is better.." "No - latex.." "Well, you mustn't call it latex it's actually acrylonitrile butadiene rubber..."

    For the record, I do believe that I - as a not exclusively pleasure dresser - do have aspects that are transgender - how can I explain my avatar and profile pic otherwise? But am I gender-nonconforming? If I were to accept that my gender is not binary but that gender presentation as defined by society always must be, then yes - I'm always gender-nonconforming because there's always a femme or male aspect of me that isn't presented.

    I think the definition of transsexual is much clearer, but I would counsel Lucy's closing statement for all of our semantic debating: None of these classifications are absolute.

    Katey x
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katey888 View Post
    it strikes me that the professionals don't fully agree, we can't fully agree, but as long as we accept that we're somewhere in that weird gender-mixing, crossdressing, femme-presenting melange of males (here on mtf - not to exclude ftm but just invert everything) who have a need or desire to express or utilise feminine aspects of our being for whatever reason, isn't that enough?
    Yes of course it's enough as these are not my quotes ..These are copied and paste quotes ( my replies) of professionals that are in the field of gender spectrum ...These are examples of how "real labels " get miss represented or do not match the opinions of their respected communities ..I wasn't disagreeing with anyone just another learning experience for me ..
    I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.

  24. #24
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    Oy vey . . . soup anyone?

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    Adventuress Kate Simmons's Avatar
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    Hi, I'm Kate. Pleased to meetcha.
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