Conchita Wurst

[Claire_tv_uk]

An austrian man dressed as a woman has just won the eurovision song contest, as a song contest its very tacky and its usually the biggest gimmick that wins. (a transsexual called dana international won in maybe 15 years ago)

But do you think things like this do the community good or harm, i'm unsure myself?

All he had to do was shave his beard and he'd have made an attractive woman, sure there'd have been intrigue but it wouldn't have caused ridicule, although the cynic in me thinks he wouldn't have won the competition as he wouldn't have stood out as much.

I'm personally not too bothered as i think everyone should be free to portray whatever image they want, but i could understand if some of those who are out of the closet and have had to deal with oppression would find it uncomfortable

[Ezekiel]

I just saw Eurovisión and I am really really happy that Conchita Wurst won. I was about to announce it myself but you Claire made it first.

These kind of things don't make us ridicule, because I believe this enhances the acceptance of people, given the fact that s/he won without negative image from anynone, atleast for now.

Biggots will now cry and start saying their typical stupidity, but we know them quite well. This is an example that we, someday not that far was we tend to think, that WE CAN GO OUT THERE AND LIVE OUR LIFES.

The victory of Conchita, is a victory for all of us!

[Milou]

I think both harm and good. He didn't won, because he had a great song, but for his courage and statement. He has a lot of supporters, but found more hateful comments on the internet.

I rooted for the Netherlands, but I don't really give a shit.

[Ezekiel]

Whatever mafia there is in Eurovision, whatever political interests there are, we, for once, have been benefitted from it. We deserve it. We are starting to see the light. Transgender and androgyny won today. We won today.

You should see the positive effects of this, because although probably the song wasn't exactly the best, it was good, Conchita is very good Singer and everything else is just beneficial.

Conclusion, we win. Thanks Conchita for this victory, which means in my opinion, much for the community.

[Zylia]

Before I say anything about Conchita's victory and the point you're making, I do want to acknowledge the surge in quality that we have seen in the last couple of years: the 2012 winning song "Euphoria" is awesome and this year's number two through five are all solid popsongs, nothing more, nothing less (obviously including The Common Linnets!).

Anyway, the ESC is politics first, (latent) gay pride second and music third. The blatant nepotism is particularly egregious, but that didn't contribute to Conchita's victory. Her tacky song isn't really good, but she checked the first two boxes as a LGBT 'icon/martyr' and all the protests against her evidently helped her a lot.

I don't know if a 'bearded lady' is the best spokesperson/poster child for transgender acceptance for everyone, but it's a strong signal nonetheless. I hope we can all grow up and accept that not everyone fits the mould and maybe that's exactly what the TG community needs.

[Abbey11]

I think that this is a good result for the community

'Conchita Wurst won the Eurovision Song Contest 2014 with a score of 290 after a grandiose James Bond-theme-like ballad, Rise Like a Phoenix, before an international TV audience of around 180 million people in 45 countries.'

Hugs Abbey xx


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...#ixzz31MGHurUH

[NicolaF]

I think it is absolutely brilliant.

The fact that the personal pronoun used to describe Conchita throughtout the whole tournament was "her", or when talking about her people always said things like "she did great" or "well done to her" was fantastic to hear I thought, because it showed that people accepted her for who she wants to be and how she identifies, and she can be seen as a great inspiration for the transgender community, even with the beard, I know I see her that way.

Maybe she wouldn't have won just on the song and voice alone, but that too I only see as a good thing, as its shows that the voting public of Europe got together to show their support for her and to show they are on her side when others like Russia were criticising her.

At the end of the day, a man in a dress is the talk and pride of Europe at the moment, so I can't see how that could be a bad thing

[Jane G]

Call me old fashioned, I didn't like the beard much to be honest, I guess it's either some kind of statement or a pop singers gimick. The song was ok & her voice was good.

This will certainly make for some mainsteam debate in the coming weeks, which is always a good thing for any minority comunity.

[Claire_tv_uk]

I think it is absolutely brilliant.

The fact that the personal pronoun used to describe Conchita throughtout the whole tournament was "her", or when talking about her people always said things like "she did great" or "well done to her" was fantastic to hear I thought, because it showed that people accepted her for who she wants to be and how she identifies, and she can be seen as a great inspiration for the transgender community, even with the beard, I know I see her that way.

Maybe she wouldn't have won just on the song and voice alone, but that too I only see as a good thing, as its shows that the voting public of Europe got together to show their support for her and to show they are on her side when others like Russia were criticising her.

At the end of the day, a man in a dress is the talk and pride of Europe at the moment, so I can't see how that could be a bad thing

not all publicity is good publicity though, do you think the talk on monday at work will be "i'm so glad she won, it really signals a breakthrough for the transgender community" or more likely "did you see that weirdo/freak/thing that won eurovision, i couldn't stop laughing so i voted for it" ?

out of interest, i've just checked on my facebook and out of the 6 who have commented about this, 1 was positive, 5 were jokes or insults including one who's photoshopped a beard onto his wife (which did make me laugh in fairness).

I really don't think this will have any positive long term effect sadly.

[Megan Thomas]

I'd like to think it's a positive for our community but I fear it won't turn out that way. The public who are accepting or supportive hardly needed this to be the way they are. My fear is the uneducated Joe public will refer to her as a "freak" or similar term and that will lead to an increased use of derogatory labels coming the way of those of us who are public and not passable. Only time will tell...

[NicolaF]

not all publicity is good publicity though, do you think the talk on monday at work will be "i'm so glad she won, it really signals a breakthrough for the transgender community" or more likely "did you see that weirdo/freak/thing that won eurovision, i couldn't stop laughing so i voted for it" ?

There will always be a few who are going to make remarks like that. I even saw that in my own parents tonight, I watched it in a different room to them so I could cheer every time Austria got 12 points, but even when she won they made a few comments about "the he/she" as they put it and it was clear they saw her as a bit of a freak, but I wouldn't expect much else from 2 people who grew up in 1960s Ireland in extremely Catholic households. But I was very proud of the rest of Ireland that we gave her 12 points as well.

But for however many still hold those types of opinions its clear that far far more people were delighted to see her win, you could tell that from the audience from how loudly they cheered everytime she got high points, or from them singing along so loudly to her song. All the people there and those that voted for her did so because they liked her and wanted to show support for her. So I strongly believe for the most part that this is a very good thing that a man in a dress won such a high profile competition because it shows much more then people just tolerating and accepting her but actually embracing her and celebrating her. I certainly see her as a role model anyway!!

[NicolaF]

out of interest, i've just checked on my facebook and out of the 6 who have commented about this, 1 was positive, 5 were jokes or insults including one who's photoshopped a beard onto his wife (which did make me laugh in fairness).

I really don't think this will have any positive long term effect sadly.

In the aftermath of a high profile event with a out of the norm result like this there is always going to be big social media attention, and some small fraction of it will be of a hateful nature, but I think a lot of the people that make jokes about it don't mean it in a harmful way but some people will take offence to it anyway, being a little over sensitive.

Even I sent a snapchat to a lot of my friends of a picture of me dressed as a woman and i drew a crude beard on myself and captioned it "Eurovision 2015 here I come", and I obviously don't mean that in an insulting way to Conchita as I think she is brilliant!!

I've seen this image shared on my facebook a few times already too. Again, I don't think that is meant as any sort of insult to Conchita, just people trying to be funny. You see that sort of image the whole time where it is the simple formula of Celebrity1 + Celebrity2 = Celebrity3
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[unclejoann]

it is only a good thing if you want to be considered a cartoon character or drag queen instead of a real person.

[Sarah21]

She's a drag queen, I really liked the song.
I would love to get a razor to that beard though as she is really pretty.

I saw her being interviewed on a chat show a few weeks ago and she looked amazing, apart from the beard, but that's her choice.
I think it's a good thing, she has raised awareness at least.

[Kate T]

Anyone who wishes to criticise Conchita, Eddie izzard etc. consider this. They are out there and have put it all in the line. It could have all gone horribly pear shaped. Conchita has suffered threats and internet bullying that would make most of us run for the hills. She cannot hide behind a closet of anonymity. So yes, I think it is good for the community. And I think if you don't think it is perhaps you should ask yourself whether you are really interested in ending all types of prejudice or if you just want to end just enough prejudice to make your life easier.

[Christen]

I agree Adina, for heaven's sake, who are we to criticise. One thing you can say about Europeans, they are not staid, crazy a bit I think, but not staid.
Go Conchita! And I think there's a technical term for how he presents, Genderf .. something?

[Sarah21]

Here she is singing the winning song.

[ReineD]

People used to pay to see Bearded Ladies at circus side shows, right next to the elephant man and the four legged lady. They were novelties. And as much as our society has increased its awareness and acceptance of gender and sexual diversity, bearded women are not the norm nor do I foresee they will ever be, if we look at this site's membership as a good statistical sample of the community at large.

Does the general audience celebrate Conchita Wurst because of her performance ability and her beauty, or are people fascinated with the novel aspect of a feminine looking person who is really a man with a beard? If it's the latter, then I don't think capitalizing on the sensationalism is doing this community any favors. I don't want people to look at my SO as some sort of freak, who does this for shock value possibly for political reasons.

I think that only members of the LGBTQ community will celebrate the bold statement for diversity made by Conchita. The rest of the audience, I'm afraid, will see it as a side show.

We in this community may know that gender is not binary for maybe 1%-3% of the population, if that. But the fact remains that it is for the other 97%. If someone wants to go about their day-to-day business dressed in a skirt, wearing makeup and long hair, and sporting a beard, what are they after? Do they want to live their lives making a political statement for the gender-nonconforming (a.k.a. genderqueer or genderf*cks)? Then they need to be prepared to be stared at and judged, until such time as a large percentage of the population ceases to be a part of the gender binary.

[NicolaF]

Does the general audience celebrate Conchita Wurst because of her performance ability and her beauty, or are people fascinated with the novel aspect of a feminine looking person who is really a man with a beard? If it's the latter, then I don't think capitalizing on the sensationalism is doing this community any favors. I don't want people to look at my SO as some sort of freak, who does this for shock value possibly for political reasons.

I think that only members of the LGBTQ community will celebrate the bold statement for diversity made by Conchita. The rest of the audience, I'm afraid, will see it as a side show.

This isn't the case though. Yes there are always going to be a few who are going to see something like this as a freak show or something to laugh at or criticise, but its clear from the fact that she actually won the competition, which was watched by over 120 million people, that the majority are in support of her and its not just the LGBT community that was celebrating her tonight.

People are placing a bit too much emphasis on the fact she has a beard and ignoring all the other facts of what happened at the eurovision. Conchita was coming under heavy criticism in the build up to tonight from Russia especially but also a couple of other countries, and that would have been the case without the beard, because what they saw was a man dressed as a woman being broadcast throughout the nation, and they didn't like the idea of what they believed to be an "unnatural and immoral" way of life being tolerated and highlighted for young children to see. And how did the rest of Europe respond to Russia's attack on her? Russia's performance was booed by the entire crowd as were they when they received any points in the voting system, while Conchita was the run away winner in the end, with the entire crowd cheering her along and singing along loudly with her. Therefore its clear that it wasn't just the LGBT community celebrating and supporting her tonight.
At its most basic, Russia and a couple other nations came out attacking Conchita not just for being a bearded lady, but for being a man wearing a dress in the spot light, and the vast majority of Europe gave those nations a big middle finger, and said f*** you, we are on her side. That is a win, no two ways about that. If you watched the Eurovision you would see people were genuinely delighted to see her win!

We in this community may know that gender is not binary for maybe 1%-3% of the population, if that. But the fact remains that it is for the other 97%. If someone wants to go about their day-to-day business dressed in a skirt, wearing makeup and long hair, and sporting a beard, what are they after? Do they want to live their lives making a political statement for the gender-nonconforming (a.k.a. genderqueer or genderf*cks)? Then they need to be prepared to be stared at and judged, until such time as a large percentage of the population ceases to be a part of the gender binary.

Again, this isn't the case for Conchita. Conchita is a stage persona, Tom Neuwirth doesn't go about his day to day business dressed as a woman with a beard. In fact, in an interview I saw he said part of the reason he wears the beard is because then when he is going about his normal life people don't recognise him so he maintains his anonymity. Conchita is part Tom expressing himself, in a way that someone people obviously won't understand but most on here will, and part a statement that not everybody has to confirm to the "normal" gender roles that a lot of society tries to enforce upon people, and that people can be whoever they want to be. A lot of people are genuinely getting that message.

The support for Tom/Conchita is real and sincere. Just looking at her facebook page she has gained about 60,000 fans in the last hour or so alone. Yes some people are still leaving her messages of hate (no doubt a few are from boys/men who are angry because they are confused and upset about the strange feeling they have towards this beautiful woman ), but more and more of the comments are messages of support and love!

EDIT: Just search #ConchitaWurst on twitter and you will see how the overwhelming majority are viewing this as nothing but positive, mentioning both herself and Michael Sam in the same breath and talking about today being a great day for the advancement of tolerance

[unclejoann]

Conchita is an entertainer, not a crossdresser; she may be talented and put on a good show but that does not make her part of this community.

[Kate T]

I am sorry Reine but I disagree.

Maybe Conchita has capitalised on a societal fascination with the unusual. And yes a part of that is clearly deliberate. But no more deliberate than Annie Lennox used to capitalise on community fascination with a masculine looking woman. Early in Eurythmics career Annie was almost deliberately obfuscating with regards to her gender in interviews. Yet I don't think anyone would doubt the positive impact that Annie Lennox and others have had on acceptance of GLBT individuals into mainstream culture and society nor would they question her motives.

If someone wants to go about their day to day business dressed in a skirt wearing makeup and sporting a beard what are they after? Maybe just acceptance that that is who they are, and if they wish to perform a song, act a role or do whatever job like that then they SHOULD be able to and be judged on their performance, not on what they are wearing. So maybe the gender nonconforming community will only ever make up less than 1% of the population, it still doesn't mean that it is acceptable to stare at or judge us just because we are different from the norm.

What if Conchita were a woman with hirsuitism or androgen insensitivity syndrome and she CHOSE not to pursue treatments that may reduce her facial hair or give her more feminine characteristics? Should we be "allowed" to stare and judge her then? I don't think so. I'm sorry Reine but prejudice is prejudice and whether you like her or not, whether you thought the song was good or not, Conchita, Annie Lennox, Dana International, Eddie Izzard, Chaz Bono and many others are out there doing their little bit to fight prejudice.

[Leslie Langford]

Interesting discussion here regarding Conchita Wurst, but what I haven't seen yet in this thread are any parallels drawn to the Michael Jackson story.

Here, too, was an amazing talent, but one who also began to challenge established gender norms as time wore on, and whom many considered to be somewhat of a "freak" by the time he met his untimely death. His obsession with plastic surgery and the increasing feminization of his face, the gradual lightening of his skin (vitiligo? Maybe, maybe not), the daily wearing of lipstick and make up, his obvious - albeit consistently denied - attempts to turn himself into a clone of Diana Ross...even the allegations of child abuse and pedophilia...none of these things could detract from his great talent which effectively made him the "King of Pop" during his heyday.

Michael Jackson's diehard fans and supporters (including no less than Elizabeth Taylor) stood by him up until the very end and were able to turn a blind eye to all his quirks. The outpouring of grief when he died was equally breathtaking and gut-wrenching, and no one ever mentioned his unusual appearance throughout all this.

Yes, Conchita also has an amazing talent - not to mention a beard (and the cojones to match ), but taken within the context of the Michael Jackson story, we shouldn't be too surprised that Conchita's dedicated fans were also able to look past her "in your face" (no pun intended - LOL!) presentation and help her achieve the Eurovision title because, frankly, she deserved it.

In fact, I would submit that she more than deserved it because she must have realized from the git-go that by presenting herself the way she did, she was bound to generate considerable controversy and negativity from certain quarters, and that this couldn't help but provide a self-inflicted handicap from Day 1 of this contest compared with the other contestants...but one that she resoundingly overcame in the end.

As an aside, I might add that Conchita's win was a stark contrast to the type of attitudes that we witnessed even in the recent the past in similar competitions - most notably judge Piers Morgan's palpable disdain for incredible Britney Spears impersonator Derrick Barry when he appeared on "America's Got Talent" a few years back.

[ReineD]

And how did the rest of Europe respond to Russia's attack on her? Russia's performance was booed by the entire crowd as were they when they received any points in the voting system, while Conchita was the run away winner in the end, with the entire crowd cheering her along and singing along loudly with her. Therefore its clear that it wasn't just the LGBT community celebrating and supporting her tonight.
At its most basic, Russia and a couple other nations came out attacking Conchita not just for being a bearded lady, but for being a man wearing a dress in the spot light, and the vast majority of Europe gave those nations a big middle finger, and said f*** you, we are on her side. That is a win, no two ways about that. If you watched the Eurovision you would see people were genuinely delighted to see her win!

I didn't watch the show, but I wonder if the support for Conchita was rather wanting to give Russia the middle finger? No one was happy with their stance against gays during the Olympics and I think this is why Johnny Weir and his outfits got such a great reception. And Europeans aren't happy right now with Russia's involvement in the Ukraine.

If Russia and other nations had not attacked Conchita, I wonder if the audience's support would have been as great. Admittedly I haven't been following this.

Again, this isn't the case for Conchita. Conchita is a stage persona, Tom Neuwirth doesn't go about his day to day business dressed as a woman with a beard. In fact, in an interview I saw he said part of the reason he wears the beard is because then when he is going about his normal life people don't recognise him so he maintains his anonymity. Conchita is part Tom expressing himself, in a way that someone people obviously won't understand but most on here will, and part a statement that not everybody has to confirm to the "normal" gender roles that a lot of society tries to enforce upon people, and that people can be whoever they want to be. A lot of people are genuinely getting that message.

So he is using his stage presence to make a political statement, and he is being met positively by a large number of people ... likely quite young? Might the support for Conchita be a meme generated as a symbol against the established order more than outright support for gender variant people? In other words, support for the right to say what you want and make a stance, but not actual approval of the lifestyle? I'd much rather people support trans issues genuinely, not just because it's a popular thing to do. How would all the people who respond positively to Conchita's facebook page react if their own boyfriends or best friends were crossdressers who especially preferred to keep their beards while presenting as women? Would they go out with them in public, would they fight for their rights?

I see a difference between supporting an ideal, and actually supporting people who do have gender issues. We see this all the time in this community. GGs are wonderful with CDers when they are their customers (SAs, nail techs, etc), or in principle when it is someone that a GG doesn't know, or even if it is just a friend (a GG might think it cute and offer to do his makeup), but the story changes drastically when she finds out that her husband CDs.

But fundamentally, I find the image of Conchita with a beard jarring. I was pointing out earlier, as idealistic as we might be in thinking that we all have the right to genderf*ck and that we should be totally supported when we do, the fact remains that we do live in a gender binary world and I don't see this changing. Maybe I feel this way because I am too close to the issue with my own SO and I see the reactions when we go out. I live it. As I said earlier, I don't want people thinking of my SO as a man with a beard just because it's a cool thing to do. My SO does not identify as a guy like non-CD men.

If someone wants to go about their day to day business dressed in a skirt wearing makeup and sporting a beard what are they after? Maybe just acceptance that that is who they are,

Quite correct, maybe a cigar is just a cigar.

Still, as much as I, in the deepest part of my heart, support anyone's right to present in a manner that reflects who they are, I do find women with beards quite jarring. If it is something that cannot be changed, fine. But there are razors.

I have a female friend who needs electrolysis to rid herself of her facial hair. I don't blame her, she doesn't want to be stared at and in her shoes I would do the same. We do not live in a world where the sight of women with beards is frequent. If, however, I were militant and I had a beard, then I purposely would NOT use a razor and I'd be out there saying to the world, "ACCEPT ME AS I AM, DAMN IT". But I would be realistic enough to know that I'd get stared at a lot, like a side show at the circus. Again, there's a difference between ideal and reality.

<Edit> - Why is electrolysis such a huge business with TSs and some CDs, and why do the vast majority of CDers who go out shave as closely as they can and get the best beard cover they can afford? Are they prejudiced as well? They are choosing to conform to the gender binary in terms of looks precisely, I think, because they also believe the look of a woman with a beard is jarring. It is unexpected. It garners stares and unwonted attention.

[mechamoose]

Pretty man with a pretty beard...

The controversy on this is why I feel like an alien.

- MM

[ReineD]

MM, you're a wonderful person to ask this. I think I remember seeing a picture of you dressed and you had a beard (if not, let me know and I'll delete this).

If you were to dress the way that Conchita dressed (an hourglass body with a long, shimmery gown), with a wig like Conchita's and her eye makeup (I should rather say "his" since I gather he identifies as a man), would you keep your beard, and if so, why? Or would you ever present as femininely as Conchita to begin with?