Feeling feminine...

[Tina_gm]

There is a current convo going on in the ask a GG section about the word and phrase, "feeling feminine." Ok, I concede that I as a guy may have somewhat of a different interpretation of what "feeling feminine" or being feminine may be.

There is stereotypical feminine behavior and mannerisms, of which I qualify for, not by choice even, it just naturally happens at times. But, there are other adjectives that perhaps could explain what this femininity is. For me though, I can say that most simply do not apply, not really. At least, not with anything that could not also be associated with being a guy. A guy can feel sexy, although not the same way as a girl can. And sensual too. Vulnerable was an adjective that was discussed as a possible way of feeling feminine..... But me at 5'9" bumping into a 6'5" steroid freak with roid rage with a history of violence and being somewhat intoxicated adding to the mix, feeling vulnerable in this situation does not lead to femininity in of itself.

I really am curious about this. What is feminine to us, to GG's?? For me, I attribute it to relating to women moreso than anything else. I empathize with them, understand them in a way most men cannot. I feel a certain likeness.... I notice more things about them then men when feeling "feminine" I am more inclined to pay attention or want to browse women's clothing sections when feeling feminine. For me it is about relating to moreso than anything else. And vice versa when feeling more "masculine." So, just curious about what feminine is or means to anyone else.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I don't doubt what you feel, Gendermutt, as you're the only one inside your head I just don't think feelings are divided into gender. They're human feelings and we all have them. What you describe just sounds like a guy with a softer, more expressive side and in our current social climate, the world of women gives you an opportunity to safely show this side of yourself. I know plenty of women who are less emotional and more driven than your average guy, yet I've never heard them say they feel masculine. I really do think these feminine/masculine feelings described here are largely a creation of the crossdressing community and for whatever reason there's a need here to compartmentalise them this way. But for me, feelings are without gender and I never associate aggression with a masculine side (whatever that is!) anymore than feeling nurturing makes me feel feminine. They're just feelings; nothing more.

But like I said, I can't get in your head as you can't get in mine, so if you say it's a feminine thing I can't really argue with that. Well, not too much, anyway, lol.

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with Tinkerbelle in that these are human feelings. We all have them. We all just don't express them. To myself a big part of being feminine is caring and sharing and being family oriented, caring about one another. Sometimes men feel acting like that makes them look weak. Quite the contrary it's a strength that surpasses anything physical and is more long lasting. That is the true secret of being feminine and is why we love our women folk so much. Don't forget we all start out in the womb as female and a male is just a specialized woman by virtue of hormone distribution.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Inside my head there is no desire to "feel" feminine, but there is a strong visual component. I want to look feminine. Does that count? Without sounding flippant, and with no intent to disparage women or those that transition, the ideal scenario would be to remain a man mentally, aware that I am a man, with all of my self-perceived male mental strengths and my male experiences, but to have that wrapped in a beautiful female body, face, and clothing. Essentially, to be me inside, but be a woman outside. Is that psychotic? To me, that would be a delightful and powerfully erotic scenario. If I were a woman, looking and dressing as a woman would no longer be taboo or deliciously sensual. If, however, I could look and dress convincingly as a woman, while retaining my masculine internal identity, all the external trappings of femininity would stay special. Also, probably revealing, is that I would not use my appearance to attract men--in my mental movie my wife would love the feminine me. Maybe this is what defines me as a fetishistic dresser? I hope I am making sense, and that there are a few kindred spirits here. Please don't misinterpret my comments as trivializing the deeper feelings of those members who need or desire more...I'm just one point on the spectrum.

Thanks

Shibumi

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Shibumi, my H would say exactly what you just said, so no, you're not alone in these feelings

[AKADonna]

To me, the feminine urges have become increasingly common as I have aged. When I respond to these urges with simply underdressing or dressing completley en femme, I find that I am a completely different person. I tend to be much calmer, much easier to get along with and much more cooperative! The softer, more feminine side comes out in many ways. I think that these feelings are entirely personal and internalized to me. I really don't care much about what others think about it or how they would classify it. I just love it!

[Beverley Sims]

I kinda agree with you gendermutt, I have similar feelings, now Tinkerbell has added to the mix making me realise I have a soft spot for women and try to understand and relate to them and at the same time these are masculine feelings.

I think I will go sit in a corner and try to re-discover myself yet again.

[jaleecd]

My illusion of being feminine aches to experience the grace, beauty and close social sheared experiences that woman share. the ability to express loving non sexual touching and hugging, the knowing look shared to express a common experience that women have had to put up with. The modes of dress that is expressive of feelings, activeties or even their sense of sexual attractiveness that is so natural. Women, love them, but I will never be clever enough to fully experience the lovely essence of their life experience....Sigh.....

[Marcelle]

I think the problem with terminology here is that is it is difficult to disentangle the stereotypes from the gender and we begin to attribute specific actions/behaviors with a gender and claim that as femininity or masculinity. Women are more calm, loving, nurturing, gentle, emotionally expressive . . . men are more aggressive, distant, aloof, confident, hard charging, breadwinners. As society advances (thankfully) these concepts are blurring across the genders. I know plenty of stay home dads who fit what this "femininity" concept is while their wives go out and earn the money. Then again I know both men and women who have both sides of the traits.

For me it is not about acting (with the exception of mannerisms, presentation, voice) feminine as there is really no one feminine trait only a broad swath of human emotion and behaviors of which both genders are capable. Do I relate more to women, understand them the way most men cannot? Well, I can appreciate what women go through to get ready to go out (make-up and all). I can appreciate and understand how certain styles of clothing (dresses, skirts) can make women feel vulnerable. I can relate to their hopes and dreams the same way I can relate to any persons hopes and dreams which might be similar. However as a CDer I cannot truly understand women because I have not lived that gender completely or long enough to truly comprehend. I get a glimpse of it but only the superficial (presentation portion) not the whole spectrum . . . kind of being on the outside looking in . . . what you see is only a portion which you can mimic. To give an analogy, it is like when I was young and always wanted to be a soldier, I played army, dressed in army like clothes but I never truly knew what it meant to be a soldier until I become one full time.

Hugs

Isha

[Kate Simmons]

What Isha said is true. Once you live the role, you more or less begin to understand the mechanics of it. Then again most stuff in life is really "seat of the pants" and there is no right or wrong way to do things in the final analysis, only experience.

[Katey888]

More searching for one of those meanings, Mutt..? I agree this is a very tricky one...

Sometimes you can gain insight by asking a similar question, or a contrary question - so how do we all feel when we're feeling masculine? (Perhaps that's not entirely productive, as I think we do have a big variance of masculinity here, but...) I'll admit I spend the vast majority of my time as male me, as do many others here, but I'd like to think when the urge comes (and it is growing at the moment...) I, like others, can portray a very feminine image... I think it's that part that comes first for many of us.. (I have a feeling Wild will be pleased about that..) But in normal male life I don't go around grunting, knuckle-dragging and continually adjusting my boxers (metaphorically, of course..) - so not an archetypal macho image either (but I know there are some here that do portray that archetype... that is another interesting aspect..)

The transformation for me starts with the image - the feeling of femininity grows as the image develops into something that more closely matches what I want see as my ideal image... Once that is right, or complete, then my movement, mannerisms, posture, expressions also modify... all become more 'feminine', and with that, something of a feeling... but my actual feelings - emotions, fears, joys, desires - don't really change... I'd accept that it's difficult to confirm this because I don't interact with anyone when feminine me... I'm sure this would feel different.

However - a lot of what you describe I can relate to, but I think we can sometimes be prone to go searching for something that affirms our femininity more than 'average guy'. A lot of what you describe also falls into the 'imagery' of femininity - you notice things about women (visual); you want to browse clothing sections (visual)... What you describe as stereotypical is learned behaviour... mannerisms, expressions, posture... I think what Tinks has said about some women is true where they will actively work against the stereotype for some reason - I doubt they are feeling they are suffering an excess of masculinity...

Femininity, for me, does seem to be communicated through a lot of visual cues - the more I think of it, the more I realise how much conditioning plays a part in this... Quite a rabbit-hole, it seems... Femininity then for me is typified by: delicacy of expression, elegance, grace, softness, empathy, being pretty and sensual...

Perhaps it would be worth asking our few FtM folk how they perceive feeling masculine? There might be some insight there as a complementary perspective...?

Katey x

[Mollyanne]

Feeling feminine is defined by ones own perception of femininity. An example of which would be------If you observed a muscle bound woman who stood 6 feet tall and weighed 210 lbs would you consider her feminine????? Now the reverse----If you saw a very attractive woman who stood 5.5 ft tall with flowing hair, perfect make-up and a very flattering out wouldn't you consider that woman feminine????? I guess you could say femininity is in the eyes of the beholder!!!!!

Molly

[suchacutie]

That first day that Tina appeared (almost 9 years ago) neither I nor my wife knew what to do with her, or even who she was. It was probably the 6 in. heels that forced a change in body movement from square one, but this complete lack of knowledge sent us off into constant discussions about what it is like to be a girl, and what that meant in terms of Tina.

Part of the discussion was about physical presentation, of course since that was an immediate necessity to match Tina's internal feelings to her appearance and physical actions (looks, deportment, voice, clothes, etc.), but that was just the surface. We talked about our different experiences growing up in different gender stereotypes and perspectives. Then there were the insightful discussions of identical topics with my wife asking questions of opinion on those topics, first with my male self, and then with Tina. When I asked her why she did this, she said she wanted to know if my gendered selves looked at the world differently. Amazingly enough, there were differences!

There is extensive literature concerning the differences between the genders. These differences are surely not absolute, but they have shown to be statistically meaningful.

Our experience is that my gendered selves fall, generally, into these statistically significant differences. Tina is treated as a separate person in mos circumstances. My wife has no trouble separating my masculine and feminine selves, based upon our experiences and our readings. It's not possible to point to any one trait that separates my gendered selves, but what comes across to my wife is a person (Tina) who is looked upon as her girlfriend, the feminine side of her husband.

I'm confident this experience can't be generalised as this is such a complicated and personal experience. We see Tina as feminine, and that's probably all that we can say for sure

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi GM, When I get dressed and put on my wig and look in the mirror That's when I feel feminine.

[MatildaJ.]

I like Isha's take.

I feel that when crossdressers say they feel "feminine" when they look like a woman, that puts women in a rigid box where they are judged inadequate (unfeminine) if they have muscles and angular features and walk with big confident steps (or do anything else that is not considered feminine). I encourage cross-dressers to help break down those gender roles, so men and women can act however they want, without being mocked for it.

"Vulnerable was an adjective that was discussed as a possible way of feeling feminine" -- that's actually the opposite of what I mean. I don't mean that vulnerable = feminine, I mean that let's talk about how you actually want to be perceived, without telling women how they should feel.

If you, a crossdresser, want to have someone hold a door open for you, say that. But don't say: "I want to look like a woman because then people will hold doors open for me." If you, a crossdresser, want to look like a sexy cougar, then say that. But don't encourage the stereotype that all women over 40 are supposed to be cougars. Maybe think about what you personally would choose to experience if you were a woman, and then explore how to get those experiences. But don't act like all women naturally have those experiences, or should want those experiences. There are a million ways of being a woman, and very few of them are "soft" or "cooperative" or "elegant" or "graceful." If you actually want to know about women's real experience (not the fantasy version), then ask women to talk about their relationships with their mothers & daughters, or their relationships with their brothers, or with their bosses and colleagues. That's a good starting point.

But if you want to stay with fantasy versions of the female experience, then keep imagining that women are constantly sharing "knowing looks" and wanting to browse the women's clothing department, and feeling beautiful. I almost never share "knowing looks" with another women; I never want to go shopping, and I rarely feel beautiful.

Take a poll of the women you know and ask them what percent of the time they feel beautiful and graceful and want to go shopping and feel a bond of sisterhood with other women.

Or don't, and continue to live in your fantasy, but don't tell us that dressing as a woman has made you sensitive to our real experience, please. The way to learn how women experience the world is to ask them about it, not to put on panties and stockings.

[Tina_gm]

Jesse, I would never simply equate dressing to all femininity. You almost seem angry about this.... It is merely a thought or thoughts I have about how and why I feel the desire to dress. The more I feel a connection to women, generally the more I desire to dress as one. How can I a guy aka crossdressers feel feminine when I am a guy? well, I have been described more than once as a "feminine man" by women both times btw, one being my wife. If I a guy, a crossdresser and a feminine man (considered by some) would it somehow be possible to feel feminine? I can't logically say I feel like a woman, or can I?

I do feel a difference when I am more centered in a masculine mindset..... difference phrase there, mindset, than a feminine one. My best ways of differentiating the two are by a feeling of connection, or something shared, or relating to. I really don't think we CDers need to be beat up because we feel something different, something more like a woman. After all, there is something that connects us to female, or feminine. Something that gives us a desire to experience physical sensations that women experience.

Some GG's here, definitely you JesseM do not like our use of the word feminine. I would only suggest that the physical sensations are at least a part of a feminine experience, so, why not be able to say we feel feminine when we experience the physical aspect of it? I agree, that alone does not give a full experience of femininity.

Still, I would say for many of us, there is something internal that drives us to want to experience the physical sensations, To look visually like a woman. For those who go out in public, they enjoy the sensations of being treated like women, to be addressed in female pronouns. I really do not think it should be all that bad that those experiences when desired and enjoyed to be considered to feeling feminine.

[MatildaJ.]

I'm not angry, but I'm frustrated that I don't seem able to communicate my point.

There are a lot of stereotypes about women, and saying "I feel feminine" reinforces those stereotypes.

If I drank from a baby bottle and stuck my thumb in my mouth and said "I feel babyish," that would not mean I was close to what real babies experience in their developing minds & bodies. I would just be experiencing the stereotype, cartoonish version of being a baby.

If I wore a tiara and rode in a horse-drawn carriage, and said "I feel regal," that would not mean I was close to what real royalty experience, which is probably a lot of annoyance at the politics of managing a government and having to cope with the invasiveness of the media.

If I mentored a young student and proudly watched them graduate and said "I feel maternal," that would not mean I was close to experiencing anything like what real mothers go through.

So, I can't stop anyone from using the word "feminine," but I can post in ways to show that it can't convey the reality of being a woman. I think most women rarely feel feminine.

Do most guys feel "masculine", on a regular basis, as they shower, make their coffee, drive to work, struggle to get their job done well, and then come home and play with their kids? Or do you just feel like a person, trying to get through the day?

[Momarie]

"Feeling feminine" to me, has nothing to do about how you LOOK.
It's all about how you feel when you show your love through nurturing, comforting, empathy, compassion.

I guess when you're an immature girl it's all about the superficial accoutrements of makeup, panties, shaving your legs, hose, shoes, nail polish and skimpy outfits.
But when you are a woman, it's about still feeling feminine even when you're just mundanely cooking, cleaning, wiping up puke and changing muddy diapers. You know you can still feel cute and sexy, even if you're not at the moment.

It's about working hard, day in and day out at whatever your job may be, knowing as a woman this is the life you chose.
It's about being responsible and getting through the mundane stuff with a happy heart.....still having the ability to have fun and show love...to those you love.

If the "superficial accoutrements" make you feel good, that's wonderful!
But I don't think it has much to do with being feminine or being a woman.

[Jamiegirl1]

To me, the feminine urges have become increasingly common as I have aged. When I respond to these urges with simply underdressing or dressing completley en femme, I find that I am a completely different person. I tend to be much calmer, much easier to get along with and much more cooperative! The softer, more feminine side comes out in many ways. I think that these feelings are entirely personal and internalized to me. I really don't care much about what others think about it or how they would classify it. I just love it!

I have to agree with Donna,The older I get,I want to be more feminine looking and feeling and if that means to be softer,gentler,more submissive feeling ,then I guess that's what it is to me to feel feminine...I love to feel pretty,with makeup,wig,pretty dress painted nails.....I just feel feminine!!!! I definitely feel like a different person when dressed as a woman....so much happier....

[Momarie]

I get ya Jess.
You communicate great!

[MatildaJ.]

Thanks, Momarie!

[Zooey]

I like Jess and Momarie's descriptions. I'll add that my perspective on femininity has changed pretty substantially over the last year or two, as I've spent more and more time out and about amongst both other CD/TG folks, as well as "regular folks". I've never considered myself much of a misogynist, but I'm downright frustrated about the state of things in the world right now.

I get really frustrated sometimes. because I honestly feel like some of the biggest misogynists I've met have been CDs. I've seen in it person, and I've seen it online. This is probably an unpopular opinion here, but the incredibly shallow definition of what it means to be feminine that is constantly on display is disheartening to me. I agree with some others that feeling like I share any kind of understanding (beyond the average dude) of womanhood is a big part of "feeling feminine". So, here are the things I now understand first-hand that make me "feel feminine"...

1. I know what it feels like to be truly afraid while walking back to my car at night
2. I know what it feels like to be judged harshly for not dressing the way somebody thinks I should, and often by people who should understand
3. I know what it feels like to constantly feel like I'm not pretty enough
4. I know what it feels like to have a day where I DO feel pretty enough, only for somebody who I considered an ally/friend to ruin it
5. I know what it feels like to have d-bags constantly hassle me (online and in person) when I very visibly have no interest in them
6. I know what it feels like to be objectified
7. I know what it feels like to be afraid that somebody is going to hurt me, and feel confined, restricted, and defensive as a result

...and I still can't really understand what any of that is like, because I have the luxury of turning pretty much all of that off more or less anytime I please.

So I dunno, do I really "feel feminine"? Maybe? I don't really care much... I'm content to say that I'm working on being happy in my own skin (whatever's on it at the time), and I deeply empathize with some of the ridiculous bullcrap that I see my insanely talented and beautiful female friends dealing with all the time.

[jaleecd]

I am coming to the realization that the "feelings" I have are not valid, according to the experts on this site. My observations of GGs and their interactions don't meet a criteria, so they are not valid. My feelings are as reported, and valid to my understanding of what I feel is feminine. I was never allowed to enlist in the female world, so my take on it is by observation through marriage, children, grand children, and two great grand daughters. my poor attempts to explain those feelings are laughed at or at least made fun of, because i could not really be privy to something that none of us can really experence without the advantage of XX cromesones.. i appologize for the attempt....

[Tinkerbell-GG]

my poor attempts to explain those feelings are laughed at or at least made fun of, because i could not really be privy to something that none of us can really experence without the advantage of XX cromesones.. i appologize for the attempt....

Jalee, at the very start of your post you explain that this is your 'illusion of being feminine', so despite this illusion being very different to actual reality for most women, I knew what you were saying And no, I don't think there's anything funny about how you feel. This is what femininity means to YOU. And while I completely agree there is this continual thread here about women being nothing more than a set of superficial behaviours, I also get that you're all looking from the outside in and without an invitation, you're making up your own stories about life on this side. I admire you for already understanding this, Jalee, I really do. Understanding is half the battle!

To everyone else, maybe it's time to come up with a new word? I won't pretend that the use of 'femininity' here isn't insulting. As Jess pointed out, unless you're going about your every day life thinking about how masculine you feel, you can imagine our exasperation. So I thank Gendermutt for bringing this up. We girls didn't come this far in modern life to be compartmentalised this way. We are HUMAN, as much as the next bloke, and there are NO set feelings or behaviours that make a woman. We're ALL different.

We're just like you!

[Kate Simmons]

In my mind the bottom line is that whatever we project is not a "thing" but is who we are as a person.