Asking if a person is a crossdresser or transgender is like asking is that an apple or a fruit.
Asking if a person is a crossdresser or transgender is like asking is that an apple or a fruit.
Well, I think maybe we need new and better terms, but in my world a transgender person can crossdress, but that a person who crossdress dont have to be transgender.
I understand that according to dictionary, that I am on thin ice here.
But if crossdressing alone makes a person transgender, how often does one have to crossdress to be concidered transgender, once in a life time? once a year? once a month?....
Last edited by Lorileah; 08-22-2014 at 05:54 PM. Reason: no need to quotepost above yours
Every time I ask this question I get a different answer.
I am a Crossdresser or to use the older term Transvestite. If that makes me Transgendered also, fine. If it doesn't fine. It isn't going to affect the way I do anything anyway.
Yes, we definitely could use new and better terms. However, I'd say transgender (unlike cross-dresser or transsexual) is one of the least problematic terms because it's so widely applicable. The only problem is that a lot of media use it for transsexual individuals exclusively. It's not technically wrong, but it's like saying fruits when you're talking about apples specifically (thanks for the metaphor Nicolle).
You're a transgender cross-dresser if cross-dressing serves it's own purpose and/or fills some emotional need. In that case, you probably don't do it once a year. If you cross-dress because it's your job (e.g. you're an actor: Dustin Hoffman, Robin Williams, etc.) you're not a cross-dresser. The actual problem with the word cross-dresser is the fact that there's too much of a focus on the clothes when it's also (or more) about full cross-gender expression.
OK I've read all your posts and have to say - thank you - because some of you were very helpful in defining what's what and I do think I have more of an understanding of it. That being said - I agree with most of you that lables are dumb and don't generally mean anything anyway. BUT as a wife of someone under this umbrella I NEED MORE! I need to understand where he is on this spectum. I need to see where our life is headed and if we have the same picture in mind. When we got married that is what that was all about. We met, fell in love, both wanted to have a family - knew where we wanted to live and set out together knowing what each of our roles were. WELL? somewhere along the way he realized or finally decided to tell me that he wanted to change his role. YES it freaked me out mainly because I didn't KNOW what his new role was? or if we were even on the same page any longer.
SO for me I NEED the breakdown so he can tell me what role fits him so we can understand one another again. I still don't see it as a spectrum but as a ladder. I know most of you don't care for that but it just seems to me that it is a ride you take and it has a natural progression. I mean you can get off the ladder or go higher or back down. But all in all it is that transformation from Male to Female it just depends on what degree you end up taking it each time.
I guess I need to know how far he wants/needs to go and see how that fits our picture? I know that may seem insensitive but it's actually because I want us BOTH to be happy. I don't want him to be something he isn't but in the same breath I need to know where that is so that I know I can be happy too. Does that make sense to anyone or am I clear as mud.
For the moment I think we are OK and are communitcating well and in general just love one another but he needs to figure out where he lies on this spectrum and understand himself before he can even explain it to me so in essance we both need the lables to make sense of things? But this constant WONDER is killing me, and the time to process everything is so hard. Normally I can put something out of my head and not worry about it but I'm constantly on this forum looking for answers but sadly only time will tell.
Coping2014
Dear coping2104,
You sound a lot like my wife. She has the same concerns. I tell her the truth. I am a straight male. I love dressing in women's clothes and I really enjoy it. I am attracted only to females, but just happen to love dressing up in womens clothing.
Love,
Lexi
This sounds like a six of one or half a dozen of the other thing. I have been crossdressing for years, love my fem side wen dressed. Two years ago I got breast implants to enhance the look and feeling of being female. Lately I've been wondering what it would be like to experience sex as a "woman" with a male if I had girl parts down there, I,m not gay or attracted to men. Just wonder what women feel guess I lean to transgender.
My H feels the same as he never thinks he's a woman internally. He just likes the visual side of crossdressing...so is he transgendered?Originally Posted by susannma
I'd say literally, yes. He's crossing that gender line, even just in the physical sense. But that's where labels really are silly as there really is a HUGE internal difference between my H, who's playing dress up for fun, and someone correcting an incongruence that is their external/internal identity. The latter should really be insulted that my H is under the same label! It's a bit like someone who spent 8 years at medical school to gain their doctorate being compared to someone who found one in a cereal box. There is no comparison!
But, in the literal sense, my H's kinky little fun sits under the same umbrella as someone born in the wrong body. If anyone here thinks that makes sense, I'd love to know how! Otherwise, these labels are silly and, in my opinion, possibly harmful for those whom crossdressing is a life and death decision and not just a bit of fun.
Hi Tinkerbell-GG, nice to hear I am not the only one.
Its actually in the few situations where I have tried to explain that I crossdress to girls, that I realy found the term transgender problematic. Its hard enough to explain why I dress (I dont know why I dress.), but if I use the word transgender, I have to also explain what I are not.
I tend to use TG for myself. I take the words at their literal meaning.
I've always had the GID/GD problem. I prefer to at least "appear" more
female than male. As normally as is possible.
So I guess that's crossing genders...(?)
I use CD for here and other sites. TG just causes more confusion.
There doesn't seem to be a label for someone who CD's always. I'm not
a CD in the same way that the majority are here (happily able to switch
between M/F)...and I'm not a TS.
FT/CD doesn't apply because I don't think of myself as cross-dressed.
Even though technically I may be, in the opinion of many. I don't feel
that way myself.
TG/crossed gender...seems to be about the most appropriate way for
me to view my own self.
If I never got taken as male ever again, it'd be fine with me. Great
actually! lol!
Every month or so I get a confusing headache and have to look up the many terms TG-FT-CD-MTF-WTF-LOL to find the little cubbyhole I'm supposed to fit in. I think I'll decant a nice Malbec for now and slip into something comfortable.
Ineke
Transgender has become a term that is inclusive of a wide range of behaviours and desires ranging from fetish dressers who literally stay in the closet - often not even telling their spouses or families to transsexuals who transition to living full time in their chosen gender. Generally, the term applies to those who wish to experience some aspect of the opposite gender on a part time to full time basis. Tom-boys and sissies may not cross-dress at all and only seek to socialize as their chosen gender.
This says a lot. You still consider it a secret that you only tell a few few friends. A bit hard to get information when you only have a very few people who know. Thank goodness for sites like this one.Two days ago I let one of my very old and dear friends in on my secret.
He understands living the dual life, he understands the struggle of being yourself in an environment that doesn't handle honesty well. He may even understand the persecution. At the same time, there are many things that can be very different. It's hard to be gay without telling anyone - especially if you want a lover. It's relatively easy to find a community of gay people, because there is that desire to find love, romance, and friendship.We had lost touch for many years and I have always regretted not keeping better contact with him.
We both come from a very similar background as we both grew up in the same church, schools and our families were always pretty close.
He is homosexual, and was in the closet for a very long time, so I'm sure he understands better than most.
For many transgenders, the secrecy can be extreme. Often, they will be very private and solitary in their activities. Many cross-dressers not only don't leave the house, but have secret hiding places for their clothes, and only get dressed when they know there is no possibility of being seen by anyone, even members of their own family. Many times, even though the family may suspect and may be accepting, they don't want to upset them or drive them away by asking them about it, and the transgender themselves may be so afraid of rejection and persecution that they would rather be dead than out. Some even commite suicide when they are outed.
A transgender person also has the experience of seeing his body turn into something he doesn't want. A transsexual often finds puberty so upsetting that they literally can't look in the mirror without wanting to be sick to their stomach. MtF transgenders are often even more secretive. Some even try to pretend to be more masculine in order to survive, even though they had doing it. Often, when they are outed, they are terrified of what others will think - of how they will be picked on, abused, humiliated, or even violently attacked.
Often, it takes a trained therapist to distinguish where on the transgender scale someone really is. There are type 6 transsexuals who will attempt to convince the few people they have told that they are just fetish dressers or just closet dressers. Often, they lead such conflicted lives that everything they do is geared to make sure they "pass" as their birth gender - and even then they don't. I was amazed when I went to my 40th high school reunion and people saw me as Debbie and recognized me and were completely expecting it. Many of the women told me "We always considered you one of the girls".
Many transgender males across the spectrum have experienced bullying by 2 or more boys concurrently, often by 10 or more at a time, and often 2 or more times a day. The experiences in elementary school and junior high are so traumatic and stressful they literally have to deal with post traumatic stress disorder. For them, "passing" as boys or men is something they consider to be a matter of survival.
As a gay man, your friend has exposure to a number of different cross-dressers who are not transgender.One thing he has said puzzles me though. It seems he does not include a closet crossdresser into the umbrella of transgender.
Drag Queens, Female Impersonators, and similar entertainers often dress up to please an audience.
Even entertainers who dress up can be very closeted about being transgender.
So long as they claim that they are "all man" who "can look really pretty for a few hours for laughs and tips" they are accepted.
To quote "To Wong Fu"
A transvestite is a MAN who like to dress up in women's clothes
A transsexual is a man who wants to be a woman.
If you are a gay man who has way too much fashion sense for one gender - you're a drag queen.
There are often issues between drag queens and transsexuals. Often a young transexual will come out to a drag queen hoping to find a kindred spirit only to be rejected.
Some drag queens can be transphobic - the thought of a man wanting to be a girl is almost as disgusting as having sex with a girl. Many are quite proud of how hard it is to tuck their "monster".
I would be interested to hear what he has to say. There often seems to be a "pecking order" within the transgender community and drag community, and they are almost opposites.Not sure why, but will be asking the question to him when I find the opportunity.
Part of the issue may be that drag queens don't want to be considered or treated as "weak little sissies" while transgenders want to experience their softer, gentler, feminine side in whatever ways they can.
I knew I wanted to be a girl when I was 3 years old. I preferred to play with girls, I had my own dolls, I preferred the games girls played, and I liked the lack of violence.My questions to the group are: At what point do you consider an individual a transgender person?
When I was 6, they told me I couldn't play with girls anymore, I had to play with the boys - that first day was one of the worst in my life - I got stoned - the boys threw rocks at me on day one as a boy.
When I found out "Sissy" was to "Sister" what "Buddy" was to "Brother", the word itself I realized was appropriate. I wanted to be more like a sister, a girl.
When I found out being called "Sissy" made you a target - someone to be beaten up by 10-15 boys all at the same time, often for almost an hour, I realized that being myself was dangerous.
To survive, I went into "stealth mode". Even though I knew I wanted to be a girl - and never stopped looking for ways to make that happen, I could't tell ANYONE. Not my parents, not my brother, not my best friends.
When puberty started I was freaking out big time.
When, at 14, I found out I had a bass voice and had to sing in the choir, I was suicidal and self destructive. I regularly drank myself into black-outs, often combining booze, pot, over the counter, and perscription drugs to literally become a different person. From what my friends told me I could either come out as a "boy ****" or "an emasculating bitch". I was often a danger to myself. Because of the drugs I was misdiagnosed as epileptic. How I survived until my 17th birthday I still don't know.
In high school, I was feminine, sporting long curly hair, and was approached by gay guys at school. I started introducing them to each other and the assumption was that I was gay. At least this way I was protected from further bullying because one of my fix-ups was a full-back on the football team.
The 1970s was an interesting period. Disco, Saturday Night Fever, and glam rock had made it OK to be an androgynous man.
When I finally did start dating, it didn't take long to figure out that Rex was a lesbian. I loved doing wonderful things to them, but when they tried to reach for my crotch, I got sick or nauseous. I didn't want to be a man and didn't want Rex to start thinking with that head.
When I met my first wife, I waited until 3 weeks after we moved into an apartment together to let her know about dressing. I convinced her that I just liked it in the bedroom, that I was a fetish dresser. She even indulged me for a while, but even before we were married, she was already becoming concerned about my "effeminate" ways. We tried for a year to have a baby and I finally had a fertility test. My wife told me she got the results and everything was OK. I didn't find out until years later that I might have been shooting blanks - and she knew it. 6 months later, while I was in Rochester NY, she went home for her friend's wedding, got very drunk and danced at her bachelorette party, and when she came home, made sure we made love - once. 3 weeks later she was pregnant - according to the EPT. My son came 3 weeks early at 9 lbs. 3 years later, she went to a club with her best friend to watch male strippers. She came home at 4 AM smelling like a peep show booth. The following night she said "Tonight or next year". The one night stand resulted in a wonderful daughter. I probably wasn't the sperm donor, but I was so happy to be a parent, and I loved taking care of the babies and the children. I raised them until my son was 10 years old.
Our platonic marriage was becoming uncomfortable. After 18 months with no sex, I insisted we go to couples counseling. My wife didn't hesitate to tell the therapist about my dressing, and how much it disgusted her. She also stated quite plainly "She's OK, even fun, but he's asexual and I'm not a lesbian. After several joint sessions, he asked to see each of us separately. I realize today that he was actually interviewing me to see how transgendered I was. When we had our next joint session, he said "I have good news and bad news" The good news is that you have the textbook example of a healthy marriage. You communicate, you love each other, you are sensitive to each other's needs, and if you wanted, you could be very happy growing very old together. The bad news is that Rex isn't just a cross-dresser, he's a type 6 transsexual, who has miraculously lived far longer than most of those I have treated who have not transitioned. The problem is that Leslie is not a lesbian and has no desire at all for a woman, and will never be attracted to Rex in feminine form of any kind.
The therapist was right. I was a type 6 transsexual. I started to transition in 1989 but had to abort the transition in 1996 when I was given the ultimatum of quit or NEVER contact the children again. In 1992, she showed me a letter from a school social worker stating that my visits were detrimental to the kids and that I should have my visitation revoked or at least limited to supervised visitation. She then proudly told me about her new husband's sister, a religeous fanatic, had contacted the social worker and gave here the names of 3 judges who were also religeous fanatics. Since Leslie worked in the court-house, she had access and could easily get the no visitation order signed just by telling him about Debbie.Do you consider your self transgender now? I am interested in all points of view on this.
By 1998 I had gained over 150 lbs. By 9/11 2001 I weighed over 330 lbs. I had a heart attack and signed a DNR order before going in for the angiogram. In 2007 I had a stroke. Taking out my left side for 3 months. My new wife told me that I would have to work double hard if I wanted to look good in a skirt again. Within 6 months I could walk, talk, eat, read, write, and needed no assistance. 18 months later, only a trained neurologist would know I had a stroke and even then, mostly by watching me walk down steps. Even a clinical exam showed only traces of the damage. I had relearned how to do everything. Because I wanted to look good in a skirt again.
I created a second life avitar that was female, I established female e-mail accounts, and a female face-book account. Of course, Rex and Debbie were friends, and I didn't realize that Dad had friended BOTH Rex and Debbie. When he was about to die in 2010, his wife asked me to fly out and see him. When I got there, the first conversation he had was "If I can't give you anything else, I want to give you this - Be yourself, and if that means being DEBBIE - then SO BE IT!! He squeezed my hand and reached out for a hug. For the rest of the week, Debbie was by his side non-stop. He was delighted. At one point, when he was delerious, he even thought I was my mother, come to take him home. When I told him it was his daughter he said "Debbie?", and smiled.
I started transition about a month later. Seeing a gender therapist, gradually switching to spending my week-ends and evenings as Debbie. I started hormones and made plans to transition at work. In this site I learned that I could "fly pretty", and by August of 2013 I was working as "Rexy" - until I could get a legal name change, which was finalized in May of 2014. According to my social securiity card and driver's license I'm legally female. My 38C breasts will confirm that.
The transsexual forum on this site as well as the cross-dresser forums helped me a lot. I'm not sure I could have made it as smoothely if I had not been able to take the advice of people on these forums. They helped me find resources, doctors, legal information, and just provided support and inspiration. I am grateful.
Last edited by Katey888; 08-23-2014 at 07:22 AM. Reason: TMI and OTC drugs references removed
Facebook - Debbie Lawrence
Web - [URL="http://www.debbieballard.org"]DebbieBallard.org{/URL]
See also:
Open4Success
That's an inspiring story. Glad you hung in there.
Thanks, Debbie, for your brave and inspiring story.
Yes, I think the reason is that it is still largely a binary construct, only with a different alignment.
Covered as I believe Les Emmerson still owns the rights...
-----------------------
Lots of side discussions about the concept of labels. Without labels, the idea of language would be severely crippled. In other words, how would be know the difference between a brick, a girdle, a sparrow or a gay man? We wouldn't; at least not in any succinct terms.
However, more accurately, the issue is one of misapplication of labels; usually with some sort of negative purpose. For example, technically the terms Gay Man and Faggot are roughly equivalent and descriptive. However, society uses the latter when the point is to demean or discount. The concept is good; the misuse is what is bad.
Anyway, I personally think the definitions below are pretty straightforward and the significant point is that we all have thoughts (which may or may not lead to action) that cross the usually accepted gender boundaries. And note that there is no mention of the degree or the frequency of crossing those boundaries.
Some definitions from:
World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)
The Standards of Care
7th Version - Pages 221-222
(quoted at the top of this forum)
Gender dysphoria: Distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b).
Genderqueer: Identity label that may be used by individuals whose gender identity and/or role does not conform to a binary understanding of gender as limited to the categories of man or woman, male or female (Bockting, 2008).
Cross-dressing (transvestism): Wearing clothing and adopting a gender role presentation that, in a given culture, is more typical of the other sex.
Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth (Bockting, 1999).
Transsexual: Adjective (often applied by the medical profession) to describe individuals who seek to change or who have changed their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics through femininizing or masculinizing medical interventions (hormones and/or surgery), typically accompanied by a permanent change in gender role.
Last edited by flatlander_48; 08-23-2014 at 08:49 AM.
Yup, there's confusion and different definitions about the labels, and yes, they help give the general idea but aren't something to live or be limited by. When discussing, good to agree on definitions. CD and TV have lots of variance, TG is both umbrella term and mid-range of the spectrum before TS.
I guess if you're particular, you might want to draw the TG line between those who DO drossdressING without the tg feelings and those who ARE crossdressERS (not to mention the rest of the tg spectrum - though at some point you might argue it's no longer crossdressing when the inner gender mostly matches, and certainly not on the TS end - or that is is, as long as not clearly TS). Or if one lumps that whole end of the spectrum together with fetish or (life)style dressing, they might say CDs aren't TG. Lots of degrees and not just one fixed point per person necessarily. Could also argue some TS off the far end of the spectrum, who never felt the tiniest bit like their birth sex, aren't TG either (tS, yes, not tG). Or that TG = TS but are the less than 100%-ish (or 75-100% or something) TS, requiring proportionately less treatment and transitioning.
The way I see it, a person is transgender if they feel, however little in some way, more right or better as (or appearing or behaving as) the opposite of their birth sex. I think it gets more muddled and somewhat pointless to try ignore the physical sex (being, not having) aspect of it and only talk of gender, as if it was only about one's role and style in cultural context. If men and women dressed and acted the same (or however), I think there would still be TG, albeit under a smaller umbrella perhaps.
And yes, I consider myself transgendered, in the more specific sense. When I started dressing I adopted the labels of TV or CD, not giving it much thought. It was exciting, particularly changing, though not a fetish and I didn't think of myself as a man wearing women's clothes, if not really a woman either. And as it often goes, now it's hardly more exciting than it is for any woman wearing the usual. But it does make me feel more comfortable and relaxed, happier. Not that I bother actually fully dressing all that much. It wasn't really about the dressing, and I wasn't satisfied with just that. But I'm not that far off to the TS side either that I'd suffer terribly or had to go full time or all the way, or get rid of the sausage and eggs, the male features mostly are only a bother when presenting female. It's very rare and fleeting I feel good about being a guy, and I dislike being reminded of being one. I'd rather lose my male side than female. Full transition, for me, just isn't that needed or worth it as it can be done currently. Now, if they had gene therapy to make real functioning change, that would be appealing, but still probably out of reach or just too much trouble. Oh and probably wouldn't be so straightforward or work as well once already fully grown, without growing new spare parts or whole body transplant... Or nanobot reconstruction... Yeah, not in my lifetime.
In a nutshell for me, exactly as the lady said.Hi Susan,
As many will attest here, I am not a label gal but I also understand that labels help to explain things to others and find our place in our own minds. I agree with many here that CD is under the TG moniker and when I explain my chosen lifestyle to others I will start with "Do you know what transgendered means?" If their face gets that blank screensaver mode lookthen I will say "Do you know what a cross dresser is?" . It is normally at that point where clarity tends to occur (Yes a guy who likes to dress like a girl) and then I will bring them into the explanation of TG/CD vice TG/TS as it gives them a baseline to start from.
Hugs
Isha
Rebecca
The only labels that matter are MAC, Louboutin, and Chanel. Everything else is just vanity.
REBEL WITHOUT A CLOSET!
All trans* girls are NOT created equal. https://www.flickr.com/photos/emi_again/
This always happens when you take nouns and use them to describe human behavior like "Cross Dressing"..
Cross (a noun) when used "properly"can describe a spiritual item or it can also describe when two things intersect each other ..It can also be used as a VERB with or without a object like to move past or extend " crossing" and cross can also be used as an ADJECTIVE crosser..
Dress (a noun) when used "properly" can describe clothing ,apparel or garb ..When used as an ADJECTIVE dresser ( not to be confused as an old English dresser used to store clothing)..
To be used as a VERB with or without object is to put clothing on..Dressed or Dressing ( dressed or dressing is not to be confused with sauce used on salads or prepping food).
Hope that clears things up..
I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.
Well I have always thought that I am a bit of a freak, but kind of found my identy with the term CD. But when reading ther definitions from WPATH well, than I guess back to freak. But actually I think its WPATH who is stealing a term, and put more into it than it is.
Setting Cross-dressing = Transvestism, is in my mind wrong.
In my mind it should be more like this:
Cross-dressing: Wearing clothing that are more typical of the other sex.
Transvestism: Wearing clothing and adopting a gender role presentation that, in a given culture, is more typical of the other sex.
Let's make this as simple as we can...
After many years and much confusion as to how to identify I have settled upon," Gender Non conforming,"and I dare you to disagree!
formerly blonde member
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