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Thread: Manisteam Acceptance

  1. #1
    Silver Member Rhonda Jean's Avatar
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    Manisteam Acceptance

    This thread ties into Sarah's thread on photos of passable crossdressers. Reading through that made me think about what a short time it's been that that's even been possible, and how common it is now. It's as though it's always been as available as it is now.

    We, along with the rest of the planet, have instant access to all things related to crossdressing. Youtube, Flickr, Reddit, etc.. One could certainly get the impression that crossdressing is very common and accepted. I'm not suggesting that acceptance is universal, but it is accepted and even admired in certain circles. It appears that those who are young and pretty are quite well accepted and admired. Look at Youtube videos of Gigigorgeous or Johnluuu, to name only two of no telling how many. Look around and see how that's bled over into mainstream life.

    I graduated from high school in 1976. Nobody would admit to being gay back then. From what I hear from teachers and parents of high school age kids, gay is no big deal now. Neither is it a big deal for boys to look like girls. In most cases, but not all, it's a step away from full-on crossdressing, but just think of how many feminine boys you see at the mall these days. I know if I see them where I live and travel that everybody sees them. Girl's jeans, fitted tops, long flat-ironed hair, earrings. Occasionally nail polish and makeup. One difference between them and most of us? They're not alone. They're with other girls. Mainstream kids.

    How long has it been, for instance, since it became common to see male makeup artists at department stores. 5 years? Then the next step was male makeup artists wearing very subtle makeup. Now I know of a couple of male makeup artists that wear as much makeup as any of the girls, and feminine clothes, too (not skirts and dresses, but feminine).

    Last prom season I was at a restaurant where several couples were having their prom dates. One of the boys had had his below-shoulder-length hair done in ringlet curls. I was sitting to the side of him and could never get a good enough look to tell if he was wearing makeup, but some of the conversations I overheard led me to believe he was. It wasn't obvious, though.

    The article someone linked to on here in the media section is another example. This boy didn't get his DL photo done wearing makeup, but he wore makeup and girl's clothes every day with no problems. Every year you hear about boys going to the prom in dresses. It happened not far from me last year in a very small school.

    Point is, at least for the young and pretty, it appears that the battle is largely won. I'm well aware that there are pockets of deep resistance and hatred. There always will be. But look how far we've come in just a very short time? It's a lot different now than even five years ago. Who knows where we could be in the next five.

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    I think you're right, RJ, despite the most concerted efforts of the reactionary element, the battle is indeed largely won and society continues the trend toward greater openness and acceptance - lead, of course, by the young.
    Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one.

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    happy to be her Sarah Doepner's Avatar
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    Thank you Rhonda. I kind of muddled up my post with the whole self doubt thing when my intent was to try and figure out what is happening in the big outside world regarding the perceptions about crossdressers. I want to think there is a higher level of awareness and maybe even a little more of an accepting attitude than there was when I finally started venturing out of my closet. I wonder what more exposure to those of us who are not really all that attractive instead of those who really are fun to look at and admire would do. You suggest we've made great progress overall and for the young and pretty "the battle is largely won". I not only hope you are right, I hope you are underestimating the progress that's been made and we are soon to see.
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    Style Icon Sara Jessica's Avatar
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    I think you're totally onto something Rhonda. All we have to do is think about life before the internet, before cell phones made it possible to connect with other "like-minded" people without having to divulge our home phone number.

    More of us are out there but I can still count on one hand the number of times I have spotted any of our tribe in the wild (not including events I was attending).

    And Sarah, you are darling and should go anywhere you please with your head held high. So there may be a handful of young & gorgeous members of our community out there but how is that any different than a woman comparing herself to some media-induced ideal? OK, maybe a bad example but seriously, we all have challenges to overcome. Embrace our positives, minimize or ignore our negatives and go out there and be the best we can be.
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    Valley Girl Michelle789's Avatar
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    I am quite surprised by how much acceptance there is out there, and that more people than we think are educated to some degree about us. So far I have come out to three people (a 27 year old woman, 43 year old woman, and a 62 year old man), and all of them know what transgender is. Two of them I engaged in lengthy conversations about transgender. Both of them (the 27 year old woman and the 62 year old man) are aware of the medical procedures that are involved in transition, have seen people come out on the news, have read books or articles on the subject, and are aware that not all of us who are TG reinforce the binary. In fact, I came out the the 62 year old man on the phone 1 hour ago, and he told me that he is very proud of me that I am able to accept myself, and that the gender binary is bullshit. He also said he knew of a couple of transgender people from the past.

    He was commuting home on the 405 freeway. Now it's not every day you're driving home from work and someone calls you and comes out to you as being transgender. I had to tell him not to crash the car before I told him that I was transgender.
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  6. #6
    Silver Member Rhonda Jean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sara Jessica View Post

    More of us are out there but I can still count on one hand the number of times I have spotted any of our tribe in the wild (not including events I was attending).
    I agree. There's a difference between what these fem boys do and what we do. No dresses, breast forms or high heels. Of course, there are the "traps" which I know absolutely nothing about, but that's evidently a bit of a movement.

    I think what I see is not so much a gender dysphoria, but just pretty boys who like to be pretty, and it's OK! I have a good friend who for about the past year and a half has taken her niece (9) and her nephew (6) for mani/Pedi's about 4 times. It's just a thing they do, and they all have fun with it. Their mom also does their nails occasionally. During school he takes the fingernail polish off before school, but he'll leave his toes polished for a while. Last summer he was a little shy about people seeing it. This summer (for the past week) he's kept the polish on.

    There have always been little brothers who wanted to do whatever their big sister did. I think that for the most part if it was allowed it was not encouraged, and it was kept at home. Now, in this case and I'm sure commonly, it's encouraged and it doesn't have to be a secret. A whole lot of the old "You can't do that if you're a girl and you can't do this if you're a boy" is gone. Part of it is that parents want to show how enlightened and evolved they are. Part of it is because they actually are enlightened and evolved.

    I've never been an activist of any kind. I like to think, though, that maybe I've changed an attitude or two along the way just by being... nice. Maybe in someone's eyes I've helped to "normalize" this thing we do. I hope so. There's certainly much more of a live and let live attitude now than ever before. I don't know what to ascribe it to but, at least for the young ones, it's a different world.

    The quicker the old hateful bigoted *******s die off the better! The kids are fine.

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    I agree with some of the OP original premise, but not all. And its not my intent to be overly pessimistic. I do think there is a small degree of increased acceptance. I honestly don't believe its as much as what people think. For instance I think if you look closer at the "feminine boys" or young crossdressers that you reference, such as in high school, you will see that his/her circle of friends is quite small. I think you would also find that the other students not in the circle of friends don't have acceptance for these individuals. Simply, they just don't want anything to do with them. They see them as, and possibly treat them as, a pariah. The other thing I might point out is that there are a lot more "rules", particularly in schools, that protect these individuals. People have gotten smarter,including high school students. They know that their future could be jeopardized by physically acting on their bigotry towards the gay male or the effeminate male. I'm sure some who just don't care still harass and even physically injure those deemed "different". I watch GayUSA weekly on FreeSpeechTV and pretty much every week there is at least one story about some young transgender being assaulted or worse. In a lot of places it is a hate crime to assault a gay or transgender person. Personally, I don't see that as progress. I just see it as laws that scare most people from doing what they're inclined to do. In reality, I believe, there are no hearts or minds changed in the majority of people. Fear of incarceration and civil penalties is what keeps a lot of people from doing what they'd rather be doing.

    Another reason I say what I do is because you don't see any significant presence of transgenders in the media, except, usually, over-hyped stories of one here or there (think Driver License story) or in the government sans one or two "token" ones in very small towns (usually), or in sports, or higher level management in businesses (I believe there is one). Forgive me but I just don't see how there have been great strides or battles are largely won. I just don't see it. The OP spoke mostly about young, pretty feminine boys and/or young CDs. In other words school age children still living largely sheltered from the real world. Even when they go to college, it is still a sheltered environment. However, once they get out into the real world I think it's going to be an entirely different experience for them and not in a positive way.

    I see small strides having been made. I don't see large ones. I don't see battles almost won. I just don't. Even blacks and women are still fighting the battles they started and that was much longer ago than ours started. IMO, I think our battle is going to take considerably longer than other discriminated against groups.

  8. #8
    The best of both Worlds! Paula_Femme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean View Post
    The quicker the old hateful bigoted *******s die off the better! The kids are fine.
    I couldn't agree more Rhonda! I'm in my mid 50's and started "dressing" in my early 20's with a girlfriend as part of a burgeoning BDSM relationship. For those "youngsters" here that was BEFORE the Internet, Social Media etc... yes, I know it's hard to believe!!!

    And just as when I was young, seeing an inter-racial couple was... surprising, and "queer-bashing" was practically a national past time in some quarters, so it will be for the broad spectrum of the LGBT community.

    Acceptance will come, it will take time, but, to paraphrase Dr King, and the 19th-century Unitarian minister Theodore Parker, "The arc of history is long, and it bends towards justice;" in my 50+ years I've seen huge advances, I'm sure there'll be many more before I'm gone!!!
    Black is ALWAYS the, "New Black!"
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    AKA Lexi sometimes_miss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desirae View Post
    The other thing I might point out is that there are a lot more "rules", particularly in schools, that protect these individuals. People have gotten smarter,including high school students. They know that their future could be jeopardized by physically acting on their bigotry towards the gay male or the effeminate male.
    ^this is what everyone is not understanding. Just because someone isn't actually assaulting you, doesn't mean they either like, or accept you. all it means is that they haven't assaulted you YET.

    The pink fog runs thick here. Please make sure that when you leave, to turn on your fog lamps, and put on those yellow lens glasses and take off the rose colored ones.
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    Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.

  10. #10
    Silver Member Rhonda Jean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desirae View Post
    I agree with some of the OP original premise, but not all. And its not my intent to be overly pessimistic. I do think there is a small degree of increased acceptance. I honestly don't believe its as much as what people think. For instance I think if you look closer at the "feminine boys" or young crossdressers that you reference, such as in high school, you will see that his/her circle of friends is quite small. I think you would also find that the other students not in the circle of friends don't have acceptance for these individuals. Simply, they just don't want anything to do with them. They see them as, and possibly treat them as, a pariah. The other thing I might point out is that there are a lot more "rules", particularly in schools, that protect these individuals. People have gotten smarter,including high school students. They know that their future could be jeopardized by physically acting on their bigotry towards the gay male or the effeminate male. I'm sure some who just don't care still harass and even physically injure those deemed "different". I watch GayUSA weekly on FreeSpeechTV and pretty much every week there is at least one story about some young transgender being assaulted or worse. In a lot of places it is a hate crime to assault a gay or transgender person. Personally, I don't see that as progress. I just see it as laws that scare most people from doing what they're inclined to do. In reality, I believe, there are no hearts or minds changed in the majority of people. Fear of incarceration and civil penalties is what keeps a lot of people from doing what they'd rather be doing.

    Another reason I say what I do is because you don't see any significant presence of transgenders in the media, except, usually, over-hyped stories of one here or there (think Driver License story) or in the government sans one or two "token" ones in very small towns (usually), or in sports, or higher level management in businesses (I believe there is one). Forgive me but I just don't see how there have been great strides or battles are largely won. I just don't see it. The OP spoke mostly about young, pretty feminine boys and/or young CDs. In other words school age children still living largely sheltered from the real world. Even when they go to college, it is still a sheltered environment. However, once they get out into the real world I think it's going to be an entirely different experience for them and not in a positive way.

    I see small strides having been made. I don't see large ones. I don't see battles almost won. I just don't. Even blacks and women are still fighting the battles they started and that was much longer ago than ours started. IMO, I think our battle is going to take considerably longer than other discriminated against groups.
    Could be that what you see as a small degree of increased acceptance is the same thing I see as much larger. Some of that is a measure of personal experience and opinion. Society has relaxed greatly on many things once considered taboo. It wasn't that long ago that the first gay kiss on TV was earthshattering news. Now you see it all the time. Glee, Housewives of Atlanta, RuPaul's show... just a few that come to mind. Males shaving and waxing body hair is absolutely mainstream. Spanx for men, athletes with long hair, braids and headbands. Snoop Dog with a French manicure. Bruce Jenner growing his hair and getting his Adam's apple removed, etc.. Skin care and a few cosmetics marketed specifically for men. Nail salons having men's prices posted right along with women's (where there's a difference at all). Take a look at the men's bags on the Coach site. Those are purses! Pay attention this summer to how many men you see wearing polish on their toes. I'm sure I could think of a few more examples. I call that big progress!

    Here again I'll point out that not all these things read "gender dysphoric", but it's only a matter of degree.

    I've also seen the miserable failures. I had long hair 45+ years ago and thought that fight had been fought and won a long time ago. I witnessed an incident not long ago that made it seem like that fight was yet to be fought. Today, though, I believe that was an exception.

    Tonight at least, I'm a cup half full girl.

  11. #11
    Valley Girl Michelle789's Avatar
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    I think everyone's personal experience is different. If you were to interview 100 transsexual women, I bet you will find several who lost everything (wife, job, all friends, all family) and a few who lost nothing (they kept the job, wife (if they have one), all friends, all family). Most of us will keep some and lose some. Same goes with friends, I have heard people who said 75% of their friends left them, and others who 75% of their friends stayed with them.

    As for the fem boys, they are technically transgender in the sense that they are crossing gender boundaries. They are not wearing wigs, breast forms, skirts, or high heels. They are not taking hormones or getting surgeries to change their bodies. They are male identified people that like to look pretty, at least in subtle ways. They might also cross gender role boundaries and prefer to be treated at least partially like a woman but still be a man and act like a man most of the time - or they're softer men who express personality traits that society says is feminine. The cruel truth is that being a "fem boy" has been, and still is in many places, just as stigmatized as being a CD or a TS.

    I really believe that everyone's experience is different, and depends on a lot of factors. Geographical location plays a huge role. California TG have, on average, far more acceptance than TG in Texas. The younger generation of TSes and CDers, who happens to have younger parents, will experience more family acceptance than an older TS or CD who happens to have consequently older parents. Similarly a younger TS or CD likely has a young peer group, so their friends are more likely to stay, while an older TS or CD has an older peer group, which is more likely to disown them as friends.

    Keep in mind there are exceptions to everything. There are transphobes in California, and there are young transphobes, even young women. There are trans accepting people in Texas, there are older trans accepting people, and yes even old men too who accept us.
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    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    Rhonda,
    When I was twenty I rocked.
    I looked fabulous and led a great life, with acceptance the way it is now I would really like to try it all again.

    I wonder if it would be any better, I think so.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  13. #13
    Junior Member Pink Susan's Avatar
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    Id love to be 18 again , I don't think i would hide my feelings today, I could be "different" and not face so many hurdles , I think i could be myself

    35 years ago I had no chance , and no choice
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  14. #14
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    Hi Rhonda and great thread BTW

    While I agree in principle with your comments and consider myself an optimist when it comes to people (in general terms), I truly believe it is different for the young and pretty than it is for us "shall we say less than stellar beauties" It is a commonly held belief that young and pretty or good looking equals "nice, congenial, self confident and so on" and this is not even related to CDing. All you have to do is look who gets ahead much easier in the world "the beautiful people (boys and girls both). If you are young and good looking you are more likely to get a job offer over someone older, less fit, less pretty/handsome (this is supported in the employment literature). I believe what you may be seeing is an artefact of that misconception . . . young pretty CDing, feminine boys or whatnot are likely easier to accept to the vanilla world than an old beat up dude like myself in women's clothing. Where the young pretty CDs are more likely to be seen as daring gender bending shock troops, I am more likely to seen as a "sad old guy with a weird take on life" Does this equal greater acceptance of TG folks perhaps a little but more so "understanding" and "tolerance" in those seen as "doing a good job looking like a girl". Desirae makes a solid argument that while these young pretty boys are out and about and seen by all with no issue they are also that, young. It is highly unlikely any adult is going to make fun of them or lay hands on unless they want to go to jail. However, what we don't see is how they are accepted by their contemporaries at school. Are they truly accepted by all or bullied/harassed beyond belief?

    Acceptance is funny thing and just because we are out and about and have good interactions, one cannot infer acceptance all the time (unless you know the person well). For example, my wife accepts me for who I am, my family and close friends accept me for who I am. However people I meet while in the vanilla world may be nice to me, interact with me, smile at me but that does not mean they accept me. How a person responds outwardly does not always mimic their inward thoughts. I ran a social experiment some time back to explore this and the perception of acceptance did not match the actual result http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...periment/page2

    Don't get me wrong, I truly believe we are making great strides in being more visible and educating the masses with limited acceptance. I have been out a lot and have had only a few "negative" interactions but this still cannot equate to acceptance but more likely people are too busy with their own lives to care about the old ugly guy in a skirt or they have the good graces to say nothing. Will we get there? Of that I have no doubt. Will it be in my life time? Probably not. However, by the time those young and pretty CDers get to the point where make-up cannot hide the fact they are guys it is possible acceptance will be more prevalent.

    Hugs

    Isha
    Last edited by Marcelle; 06-24-2014 at 07:47 AM.

  15. #15
    Silver Member Rhonda Jean's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm just in an optimistic mood. Y'all make good points on the other side. I hope you'll agree though that it's a lot more visible and accepted than ever. Not to be a Pollyanna, but I think there's been HUGE movement in a positive direction. I also thing that with all this increased visibility that acceptance will grow exponentially. My friend's nephew who likes to wear nail polish... He may not grow up to wear nail polish or other fem things as an adult, but his attitude toward those who do will be different because of what he's doing right now. Maybe the attitudes of his friends and even the adult who are around him right now will also be different. That's exponential change.

    I know we're not there yet. I see the same reports of hate crimes that everyone else does. There are still plenty of places I won't go, and these young pretty ones shouldn't either. But, any day of the week I can go to Ulta and be helped by a young male SA who wears expertly applied beautiful makeup every day. He's gainfully employed, dealing directly with the public, and just maybe changing attitudes every day. No telling how many more just like him there are. I'm afraid for him in many ways. He lives with such openness and acceptance that I'm not sure he realizes the hatred that may await. Maybe he's a lot braver than I ever was. Actually, no maybe about it.

    It's not a perfect world, but there's never been a time when "our thing" was more visible and accepted than it is right now, and it'll get rapidly better from here.

  16. #16
    Complex Lolita...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean
    We, along with the rest of the planet, have instant access to all things related to crossdressing. Youtube, Flickr, Reddit, etc.. One could certainly get the impression that crossdressing is very common and accepted. I'm not suggesting that acceptance is universal, but it is accepted and even admired in certain circles. It appears that those who are young and pretty are quite well accepted and admired.
    Which begs the question: what about the old and ugly? Are they feeling accepted these days?

    Frankly, I don’t think people care what other people are wearing, or doing, right before their eyes. Everybody, especially the young, are scrolling their smart phones in lieu of connecting with the real world, i.e. the tragically ignored existence that begs for attention. In this once-removed world the crossdresser may “get away with it” more easily, but I wouldn’t go so far as to equate that with acceptance. The man in a dress is still a man in a dress, and probably always will be…

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