Owning your man card

[Michaella]

This is very interesting. I do not like being male, but I have tried to be a good person and a good husband. I don't know that those have much to do with being a man, as opposed to a woman, that is. Could I be as good a person, and as good a spouse, while being a woman? I hope I would. (I don't know if I will have that chance.) There are responsibilities either way. They may be financial, emotional, moral, ethical, and so on. Does dressing femme prevent me from meeting them? I don't think so. Would transitioning to being a woman prevent that? It should not. Ah, but there is one thing: if my wife does not accept me as feminine, and she doesn't, and does not want me to live as a woman, and she certainly does not, then am I by those alone failing to be the man she needs and wants? I'm afraid the answer to that is yes.

Michaella

[Holly]

SO1Adam12, I sincerely apologize if anything I said led you to believe that I was suggesting that you change a thing that you and your spouse are doing. The fact that you believe that the two of you "are on the same page" gives every indication that whatever the two of you are doing IS WORKING so don't change a thing. The point I was trying to make (perhaps poorly ) was that if two people concentrate on making one another happy irrespective of gender then neither person has to be under pressure to live up to some societal expectation that are, frankly, sometimes hindrances. Although you and I have never met, I have taken the liberty of reading some of your posts here and you seem to me to be a loving, compassionate, and sincere spouse. I admire you for that. I place high value on people who are committed to making relationships work. My wife and I will celebrate our 47th anniversary before this year ends. Believe me when I say this is more a testimony to her than it is to me! But truly we both do work to make this happen. I wish you and your husband the same equal happiness that my wife and I have shared all these years. Commit to exploring life together and prepare to be amazed at where you go.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Isha, I have a Roofers card, That covers everything.

[SO1Adam12]

I exchanged my "man card" a number of years ago for a person card. It affords me the freedom to relate to my wife free of constraints placed upon us by gender expectations. I can fix her car and her hair with equal adeptness. She can do yard work and my nails with equal efficiency. To SO1Adam12 I understand your point and it is one that should be pondered by any couple in a committed relationship. Doing things for our partners because they like them is something we should all be doing. But I will let you in on a little secret... sometimes my wife holds a door for me and you know what? I like it too. Being freed from traditionally imposed gender roles should give us the ability to find MORE ways to please one another, not fewer. Carry on.

Holly, no offense taken- no apology necessary.

[MissTee]

Simply put: I hold two cards. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Leslie Langford]

...Maybe the transsexuals who do this like to blur the lines, maybe they would have everyone believe there is no difference between crossdressers and TSs although I cannot understand why they would want this, other than perhaps their own inability to understand the differences between the two. Or maybe they like to prove to CDers and others reading the CD threads like GGs that they are women, although I fail to understand why they might feel this necessary. It just feels as an attempt to come off as being somehow superior although I'm sure this is not the intent.

Likely this P.O.V. is linked to that old canard that asks "What is the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?", the answer being "...about 5 years"

That said, I have read the stories of many here who joined this forum thinking that they were "mere" crossdressers, but eventually came to the realization that they were actually TS after all, and then went on to get their beards lasered off, began taking female hormones, and eventually made the desision to transition fully. And once they "found" themselves, many of them left, never to return. Anyone here remember former members and frequent posters like ReneeT, NatashaCD, RobertaM, and MJ (among others) who went that route?

Sometimes when a journey is embarked upon, it takes many twists and turns, and the eventual destination turns out not to be what one had been expecting at the beginning. Life has a way of surprising us like that sometimes...

[SO1Adam12]

So Holly, it's your opinion that all CDer's are TG's in the making?

[flatlander_48]

To me, the important part in all of this is simply:

Whatever you are, and regardless of whether it moves you to action or not, Embrace It. Claim your entire self.

The thing is, when we don't claim our entire selves, we will be perpetually adrift because there will always be something missing. What I've finally sorted out is that Don and DeeAnn are two sides of the SAME coin. You can't have one without the other. Clearly DeeAnn represents some complications for Don and that will probably always be the case. However, the best thing it does is complete the picture. These two parts can coexist and they mesh surprisingly well now that I have allowed DeeAnn to take her rightful place. Had I not done that, it would be a continual struggle.

[Gillian Gigs]

I appreciate what Amy said. For me it was hard to be one of the guys, when you never really fit in.
My wife says that I have been a good husband, yes she is accepting of my CD side.
I have been a good father, I have three successful and well adjusted children.
It is outside of my family unit that I don't fit in. Most guys don't talk about what I am interested in, life, history, metaphysics, psychology, sociology, something that you can wrap your brain around. I only get primal about football, but I see it more like a chess match, best strategy game in the world. Fifa football is similar, but to often it is like watching paint drying. I guess I will keep my man card, as long as some sports are still worth watching.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I'm not giving up my man card. Sometimes I need it even in girl mode.

Last Saturday I was at a CD/TS event where admirers were invited. While I recognize their right to exist -- in some ways they're no weirder than me -- I don't want them hitting on me. And they didn't, possibly because they weren't attracted to me, but more likely because I didn't give them any indication that I might be attracted to them. One of the GG/SOs wanted a drink from the bar, but she had to cross admirer land to get to their. So I decided to pull out my man card and be her wing(wo)man.

[Requal Jo]

I hold a lot of cards as my job is very masculine and I require the qualifications and accreditations to work. (They will become obsolete soon as I am fast approaching retirement).

As stated by others, I am a man who enjoys wearing female apparel and do this when able. In simple terms "a MTF CD'er".

I will always be a man for my wife and look after her as any gentleman should.

Enjoyed reading your post Isha. Very thought provoking as usual.

[Amanda L.]

Great post Isha and I have been thinking about this all day (well on and off of course).
The responses from the other members of this forum have proved an interesting read and I guess reflect each individuals position along the continuum.
I am at a point where I am comfortable with my female self and still very much in control of my 'man card' But its a case of the 'nevers' again. Do I say I will never give up my man card only to find myself being challenged down the track should circumstances to be the alpha male in my workplace change? or I remove myself from a testosterone charged industry.
In my current mind set the answer is clear, I will NEVER give it up. I enjoy my male self too much but I also enjoy being a woman when I can. My sons need a father not another mother, so I think about the impact on them and of course my wife needs a husband. Ultimately my motivation is going to be driven by self wants and a lot of soul searching should the issue ever arise.
Right now though, its not even a blip on the radar (have I become a fence sitter?)
Luv
Amanda

[Zylia]

If anything, this thread proves yet again that cross-dressers in general don't subvert gender norms, they only confirm them. The whole "when I'm not dressed pretty, I'm still a man" thing bugs me to no end. I guess this is the same thing with women with careers when their ability to be a 'mother' or a caring partner is questioned because they have decided not to spend the rest of their lives chained to the kitchen sink. Anyway, if this gives any SO peace of mind, the more power to them.

[Katey888]

Zylia - I was thinking that too but just couldn't find the correct, brief way to say it... so thanks - I agree it bugs me too, but can't quite put my finger on why...

All I can think to add is: yes, you can keep your 'man card' - but it is irrevocably tinged with a spangly, pink aura...

Katey x

[Anna H]

Gee Ladies...I'm thinking i'm not anywhere near manly enough to be
a CD.

I'm going to take a bulldozer class and get myself qualified...

(after I finish painting my nails)...LOL!

[Claire Cook]

It's so good to read everyone's responses to Isha's thread (as usual Isha, you have such a knack for posing these thoughtful questions). They just reaffirm that we are individuals, and have different outlooks toward our CD/TG. I lean toward Holly's view -- I value my person card. It works with my wife whether I am dressed or not, and more and more works more of the time.

[Sometimes when I play my "man card" I think I'm bluffing. ("You got to know when to hold 'em,. know when to fold 'em....")]

[noeleena]

Hi,

Can i have a man card and a females card, i mean i do both male and female work, and my women friends prefer me doing thier jobs.. so what ya think about that ,

...noeleena...

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Thanks for your many replies some thought provoking, some very funny and others just plain great.

If anything, this thread proves yet again that cross-dressers in general don't subvert gender norms, they only confirm them. The whole "when I'm not dressed pretty, I'm still a man" thing bugs me to no end . . .

Zylia - I was thinking that too but just couldn't find the correct, brief way to say it... so thanks ... Katey x

Zylia / Katey,

This was not the intent of the thread. I was pointing out the exact opposite. I was not implying that a "man card" is all about all the gender stereotype bullshi&* normally assigned to it. There is more to being a "real man" than just thumping your chest, making fire and slaying animals. I was pointing out that the good parts of who you are as a man need to be brought forward into your relationship if you are planning on making it work (caring, sharing and being there for your SO, family, etc). That includes when you are dressed and yes Zylia . . . when you are not dressed. I find it hard to believe you can be anything but a man when you are not dressed or for that matter when you are dressed. Having said that, just because you are a man it doesn't mean you have to be a macho jerk . . . just be decent . . . hence own your man card. Sorry if that bugs you but that is how I see it.

Hi Isha,
Been wanting to say this for awhile. Whenever I read any of your threads I hear Carrie Bradshaw's voice! You know Sarah Jessica Parker, sex in the city. Your insight and writing style is great! So enlightening and entertaining.
BTW, i wholeheartedly agree about the man card!

Thanks . . . never thought of that. I could never wear the heels she does though

Hi Isha, I have a Roofers card, That covers everything.

LOL


Hugs

Isha

[mariehart]

I only ever had a fake man card! Now I mostly don't bother with it. If someone questions my masculinity I can only agree with them.
I just spent the last 3 days in man mode. Undergoing very stressful re-currency training for my job. The final check was with a no nonsense taskmaster for whom perfect is a minimum standard. At the end I was fighting back the tears despite my attempt to keep it together for professional reasons. So much for my man card!

In any case I don't believe there are rigid and distinct male and female roles or behaviour. You only have to look around at friends, acquaintances and family to see how people don't fit the stereotype.

Of all people CDs should see this. Whether you are Jenny or John. You're the same person. If not then one is role play. Which is fine as long as you understand that's what it is. I was in a car once with a CD. We were dressed of course. Traffic was heavy and he started drifting the car back and forth during pauses. 'This' he explained. 'is what women do.' I wasn't amused but it showed the mindset. The CD group we were part of always seemed to me to be something of a man's club where they happen to dress in women's clothing.

I thought it rather ironic.

[ginger56]

Thank you so much Isha,that was well put.I wish Icould get my wife to understand this.She has some health issues and I do my very best to make life easy for her wether I'm Ginger mode or guy mode.She has FM,fibromyalgia,cronic fatigue,and also suffers with depression.As a spouse I do a lot of the house hold chores for her to make life easy for her.I do my guy things as well,yard work,working on our cars and any home repairs that need to be done as well.

[Zylia]

[...] the good parts of who you are as a man need to be brought forward into your relationship if you are planning on making it work (caring, sharing and being there for your SO, family, etc).

FTFY

What I'm trying to say here is that being a good partner has little to do with (revoked) man cards. My gender (identity, presentation, et cetera) obviously is of some importance in a romantic relationship because that's how sexual attraction works, but being a good partner is gender neutral.

By the way, don't get me wrong, I make man card jokes myself all the time, but that's what they are: jokes.

[devida]

I understand, Isha, that it seems to help most people to define themselves within categories that they can slot within the binaries of male and female, masculine and feminine. I don't find that it helps me, or my relationship. In fact, it just confuses me. I know what you are saying is that some wives are worried that their gender non conforming husbands will lose the elements that made them attractive but this is only true if the husbands and wives choose to define personal, emotional and psychological qualities in terms of the binaries of male and female characteristics. I cannot frankly find a single psychological, social or emotional characteristic that has to be defined this way. As others have said kindness, attentiveness, compassion, protectiveness, nurture, love, every single quality that some might assign to wives are also easily found in husbands. I try to make sure that these characteristics are the ones that I present in my relations with everyone, and certainly towards my wife. Aggressiveness, self confidence, determination, authoritativeness, intellectual acuity, goal orientation and other supposedly typical qualities in men are obviously found in women and my wife certainly has most of these in quantities as great or greater than I do. Maybe I am more goal oriented but these and other characteristics change and fluctuate from day to day.

My wife and I have no interest in defining ourselves within gendered stereotypes so the question you pose makes little sense in our relationship. I'd probably have to be revived with smelling salts if she ever wondered if my being transgender somehow made me less of a man. Of course it does. But it does not have to make me more of a woman, either. And the idea that my wife would even think in those terms is very, very unlikely. Being transgender does not make me less of me. It makes me more me. And my wife certainly did not marry me because of anything to do with my gender. Until I was able to free myself from the truly wretched gender conditioning that men of my age and background are trapped within I didn't really realize that. I did not understand how very little my inflated ideas of gender had to do with why she was attracted to me. I think she disliked most of those gendered behaviors. She certainly complained about the inconsideration that my male privileged decrees manifested. She thought my reluctance to ask for help or directions just silly, and that, I am sorry to say, was socially conditioned male behavior (I am better now but still have to work on it). She has repeatedly told me how much better of a person I am since I understood I was transgender. She understands how disturbing stereotypical male conditioning is. I would not define my wife as transgender. She identifies as being a woman but she rejects, in practically everything she does, the socially conditioned idea of what a woman is.

So let me suggest that it is only in gendered relationships that your topic makes sense. I am sure that for many people there is psychological conflict resulting from gender non conforming behaviors like cross dressing, but cross dressing is only one of the many ways that socially conditioned gendered behavior disrupts relationships and destroys marriage. If you look closely at the reasons for divorce many, perhaps most, relationships break down because of gender expectations. Funnily enough this is the exact opposite of the reasons people who adopt traditional roles believe that marriages dissolve.

I am not by any means alone on this board among people reporting that their gender non conformity has made their relationships better.

In fact your relationship with your SO might not be so different than mine. Is that because you are careful to maintain areas of gender conformity (your man card) in your relationship or just because you are careful to be considerate, loving, and supportive? Is it because you are a man, presenting manly traits or because you are a decent human being presenting those qualities we all believe good human beings should have? Is your man card really that useful?

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Okay I admit defeat . . . my intent was not to say "Hey act like a man!" in a gender conforming kind of way (spit on the ground, fix trucks, hold doors open). It was meant to say "Hey if you are in a relationship and your SO is concerned that parts of who she defined as man, husband, guy are being absorbed, displaced, to the point that you are no longer the person she married . . . then you could have issues."

The "man card" in this instance is whatever type of man you were before you started down this path. If you were a caring person, always doing things with your SO and now you have become so self-absorbed in dressing that you don't do things you used to do . . . own your (personal) man card and do those things (if you can do them en femme, so be it . . . if not then you might need to do them as a guy . . . it depends on your own personal relationship). Before you started dressing did you grab your tool belt and get busy with renos, home repairs and whatnot and now it is all about looking pretty, baking, doing housework . . . well if your SO is fine with that and she is willing to tackle the renos and whatnot then that is great . . . however if she is not and it is causing issues then again "own your personal man card" and continue to do those things . . . heck you can do them "en femme" if that is within your relationship.

For me it is all about coexistence (guy/girl me). I don't change one way or the other dressed or not (with the exception of look and mannerisms). When I am guy me . . . I still hold the door open for my wife but heck I hold the door open for other people as well when I am Isha (it is the polite thing not the guy thing to do). I play Mr and on occasion Mrs Fix-it around the house because that is what I do . . . it is not a guy thing it is an interest thing. I also like to cook but that is not a girl thing . . . again an interest thing. With the exception of a very dark depressive point in my life I have always joked around, listened to my wife, given her advice and asked her advice . . . not a guy thing but a person thing. However the sum total of those things (and others) define the man I am (my personal man card) and that is what I choose to own. Would I take exception of some guy hassling my wife or getting a bit too invasive with her? Oh you can bet your bottom dollar dressed or not dressed I would have words . . . does that make me a Neanderthal? No it makes me a concerned spouse.


In the end, my take was don't loose sight of the man (yes you can imply person but let's face we are men) you were before you came out to your SO (again I am looking at this from a married perspective). The "man card" was just my attempt to put a humorous take on things as we have all heard that saying and I thought it was funny. However, I rescind the "man card statement" and will rename I "good person card" to avoid confusion. . . . my apologies if I have offended some.

Hugs

Isha

[Cheryl T]

I think someone made a mistake on mine...it just says "Human Being".

[Krististeph]

I love this post, and all the replies. It's funny that so many people thing a CD cannot be a 'man'... if so, than they are a 'women' since there is nothing else allowed, right? Holy cow, what hypocritical and faulty logic is that? I think a lot of it has to do with men supposedly not being allowed to approve of anything but manliness in a man, lest they be seen as a less manly man. Of course I think that's just retarded (and i use the word in the clinical sense), CDs in many ways are arguably MORE manly or macho:

Simply going out in public in a dress takes guts! Or shopping in public, either en femme or en drab. Getting waxed or lasered is painful- possibly more so than for women due to thicker hair.

I also do things that are typically 'macho', that the majority of women and men do not out of fear of injury or lack of faith in their own abilities- flying, motorcycling, fixing my own brakes, etc.

Turn in my 'man card'?? Only if they turn in their 'whack job' card first.