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Thread: Always progressing

  1. #26
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny Elwood View Post
    Yes I enjoy going out. With her. I have no-one else to go out with...I want what's best for my kids, who wouldn't, so keeping this a closely guarded secret is as much a priority for me as it is for you my dear.
    If you go out of the house, especially with your wife (who is obviously recognizable) then your CDing is not a "closely guarded secret." Your children are young now, but in a few years they will have teenager friends who go out and about and there will be significant risk of your secret being revealed to them. You may not even know when your children find out. My advice, when you have a secret like this, is to prepare the ground by speaking to your children about how we should treat everyone with kindness and understanding, even people who are "different."

    I do think you should work harder to find other people to go out with. That's not your wife's responsibility. It's your responsibility to find friends to do this with. There are other CDers in South Africa, I'm sure. Use the internet to find gay bars near you, and then explore the bars to find the ones which are CD-friendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by MsVal View Post
    How far will it go.....In an unrestrained environment, it will go as far as the crossdresser feels comfortable...If sufficient opportunities are available, the restrained environment will resemble the unrestrained environment and the crossdressers will find their own point of equilibrium.
    That's very well said. For most people, even those who are single, CDing doesn't take over their lives. So married CDers can also probably find a point of equilibrium where they feel comfortable and plateau -- and that can give their wives time to get used to the "new normal" and adjust.
    Last edited by MatildaJ.; 08-26-2014 at 12:29 PM.

  2. #27
    Shoe shopping shrew natcrys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MsVal View Post
    How far will it go.....

    In an unrestrained environment, it will go as far as the crossdresser feels comfortable. Consider those that are single, live alone, and dress only at home. While they are free to go as far as they wish, they seem to have reached their point of comfort, and going further would present more discomfort than relief.
    I would say this hits the nail on the head. I'm single, live alone,.. in my case my friends know. I do dress at home, but more often I go out... as sitting at home dressed up is really boring.

    I could go as far as dressing up all the time.. visiting all my friends as Tassia. However,.. I don't seem to do that.

    Sure, sometimes this has practical reasons:

    • I can't show up dressed everywhere since my family and most colleagues don't know.. and I have to be careful
    • or sometimes it's raining and I don't want to my make-up and hair to get messed up,.. so boy-mode it is!

    But usually it's just because I don't feel like it. Apparently, within my set of boundary conditions (both given and created), I have found my equilibrium... and I'm at peace.


    Now, were I to be completely fully 100% out.. things might change.. or they might not. I could not possibly dare to make a prediction. YMMV
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  3. #28
    Gold Member NicoleScott's Avatar
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    I've seen the "slow down, small steps, she'll get there" cheerleading posts. Such an approach might give her the impression that the CDer isn't telling the whole story, but rather is holding back so she isn't overwhelmed to the point of total rejection. On the other hand, I'm sure there are CDers whose desires do progress but couldn't have predicted it.
    Rules aren't meant to be broken. Negotiated agreements are meant to be re-negotiated, if necessary.

  4. #29
    Senior Member MsVal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleScott View Post
    [...] Rules aren't meant to be broken. Negotiated agreements are meant to be re-negotiated, if necessary.
    Right On Nicole. Establish a mutually agreed set of permissions and constraints with the expectation that they will be revisited for review and possible revision, ideally on a particular date. That gives all parties an opportunity to try out different ideas to see if they work, without the expectation that they will be permanent.
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  5. #30
    GG, SO to Jenny Elwood Lidea's Avatar
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    Maybe I can just clarify something, since I see a lot of you responded with something like set boundaries that will be revisited etc. And in principle I agree, but... but...

    I still have as point A the no CD marriage that I 'signed up' for. Yes, I know why he didn't tell me and so forth. Now we are, say at point C. We can set boundaries, but when we revisit them again, chances are small, basically zero, that we will move back to point B, maybe we won't even stay at C. So most likely we will move to point D, even if D is just a small change further than C. And that is still progression.
    My husband and I discuss things like this very often, almost every second day, or at least once a week. He is very accomodating, trying to minimize the impact of Jenny on my life. He loves me to bits, and I love him just the same.

    But unless we are not back at A, it will be perceived as a stretch by me.

    Thank you all for your kind and interesting input.
    I suppose, once stubborn to accept, always stubborn to accept
    Got overwhelmed by the BLUE Fog....

  6. #31
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    Lidea, there are no Cinderella happy-ever-after marriages where both people stay the way they were when they got married. You've probably changed too, since the wedding. A marriage isn't an agreement to never change -- it's an agreement to see past the changes and try to grow with each other, even when that's hard.

    This CD stuff is certainly hard. Are there other things you want that you could bring into the negotiation, to help Jenny support you more? Maybe weekends away from the kids with your girlfriends? more help at home?

  7. #32
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    Yeh, if you have half a loaf, you often want the whole loaf. CDing started when I tried on my sister’s bra. Then I underdressed on business trips. Now it’s underdressing full-time. I started with women’s pull-on pants, when I was comfortable with that; then came panties, tights, and a short slip. Now I am comfortable wearing sheer nylons and a bra. My wife gets all my clothes, except the bra. I’m working on that now, as her current limit is for me not to impersonate a woman in public. So for now underdressing is it; she has “bought into” the following:

    !) Pants: Women’s pull on pants are much easier to put on than men’s belted pants. They do not need a fake fly, as the absence of it is usually not apparent, but I prefer non-figured and solid color, non-pastel pants so they are not readily identified as women’s clothing.

    2) Panties: Underwear with a fly is unnecessary with pull on pants. Although there are no-fly briefs in the men’s department, women’s full-cut briefs work just as well, and are often cheaper.

    3) Slips: Shirttails tend to readily pull out of pull on pants. This can expose panty and pantyhose tops. A “solution” is to wear a full slip that is short enough to be worn with slacks. Also slips are usually made of material that makes it easier to pull on and straighten pants.

    4) Bra: This is generally considered a female item, but it can be useful in “boy mode” to keep non-adjustable straps on a slip from falling off the shoulders.

    5) Pantyhose: An MD suggested that I wear pantyhose to avoid the indentation in my lower legs that mid-calf or knee-high socks make. Pantyhose do not require anything that is not also needed with pull on pants. Opaque ones are best, as they aren't readily identified as women's hosiery, but that isn't necessary and sheer pantyhose are OK and are more available. I actually prefer thigh highs as they are easier to put on, they do not need to be lowered to go to the bathroom, and only one leg needs to be deep-sixed when a run becomes apparent

    6) Purse: One cannot usually keep a wallet, comb, notepad, phone, and keys in the small side pockets and lack of back pockets that are typical of women’s pants. My “solution” is to use a small shoulder purse, which can either be worn or secured in a basket when that is available.

    The goal is to appear in public fully dressed as a female. Perhaps a costume party would provide the “excuse.” Always progressing…

  8. #33
    GG / SO to a CD MatildaJ.'s Avatar
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    @sfwarbonnet, I find your reasoning a little weird. You want to wear a bra & slip because you want to wear women's clothes, not because they solve practical problems in your life.

    To me, slips & a bra aren't "underdressing" because both are apparent to other people (unless you have a jacket on as well). If your wife is fine with you wearing them and carrying a purse in "boy" mode, well, good for her -- and I think you should appreciate her open-mindedness and willingness to face potential difficult conversations with people who know both of you.

    If you have differing goals (she doesn't want you to appear as a woman in public and you do), maybe that would be something to discuss together with a counselor, rather than just trying to pressure her to agree?

  9. #34
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    "I just want to know why is this thing always progressing.... always shifting boundaries?*

    What's the difference between a petulant child or a petulant CDer?

    What good are laws or agreements if someone won't ENFORCE them? Loving someone does not require caving in to their every wish OR tear. That's not Love.

    "Progress" is NOT inevitable.
    Last edited by Raychel; 10-10-2014 at 08:05 PM.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels View Post

    "Progress" is NOT inevitable.
    I agree with this. Progression is definitely not inevitable in my mind (and from what I've read here and other forums) but it does seem to be preferred and even encouraged and this is not very different from any other human being (child or other) from pushing boundaries that may not be wise to push. We're a self-gratifying species, and if an experience can be heightened with more, more, more, then next comes the justifications as to WHY we absolutely must do xyz or we will surely die. It's just who we are, didn't you know?

    No, it's not who we are; it's what we WANT, and we won't die for not getting everything we want. We'll be disappointed but that's life - it's not all about personal gratification. I mean, I suppose it could be and we could ignore being part of a wider social circle if we choose. But we also might wake up one day, find our personal satisfaction isn't quite so satisfying anymore, only there's no one around to share this with because they got bored and found someone more engaged to spend time with. That's not to say all progression is bad - progressing to a deeper understanding of ones self is something we should all do. But progressing solely to achieve a greater 'high' because the status quo is boring (which much of the stories here involve) is something you do at your peril, and the consequences are yours to own.

    Balance, people. It's all about balance

  11. #36
    Platinum Member Beverley Sims's Avatar
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    Lidea,
    I do not fear the big "T", he may want to dress more and I would say play the leash out slowly with some resistance so as you can maintain a boundary.
    As for the children, I am sure he would not want them to find out as his secret may be revealed to every one.
    Progression will happen but keeping a lid on it can be tricky.
    Work on your elegance,
    and beauty will follow.

  12. #37
    Senior Member MissTee's Avatar
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    You make a fair point that you did not sign up for this, Lidea. I commend you for at least coming here and trying to educate yourself and understand. In the end, though, it was sprung on you and how you deal with it is how you deal with it.

    As for always progressing, at least in my case, there is no progressing. I dress at home only, do not go out, and the wife knows and supports. I keep it from the kids and the public. That's enough for me, and consequently I do think it helps my wife be more amenable to my dressing. I do not judge others for wanting or needing more because I realize each of us are different. I do believe that because I can dress regularly at home (although a second home) the urge does not well up and drive me to need more. Not sure that I, too, wouldn't push the envelope if I wasn't in a position to let it out in smaller but frequent doses.

  13. #38
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    My thoughts.... For so many of us, why we didn't tell was fear of what the response would be, yes. But also, that we were not ready ourselves. That was me also. I truly was not ready to admit to my gender issues at the time that I got together with my wife. I had gotten closer perhaps, but still not ready yet. Just as it takes all this time for GG's to come to grips, so does it with us too, at least me anyway.

    I have realized a few things even after I had revealed my gender issues with my wife. But mostly, it is and has been my own comfort zone which has led to any progression. Of our agreements we have set from the beginning, none have changed in the physical sense. And I am prepared that none ever will. I did not disclose therefore it is on me to deal with. I am very much into the personal responsibility thing, and because of that, because I did not disclose I see it unfair to keep hanging the bar for me.

    I can say though that as almost 2 years have gone by now, I am at a more accepting comfortable place genderwise than I was when I revealed. Once the reveal happens, It does change things for us, or at least it did for me. I entered a new arena of personal comfort of myself and an acceptance of myself. So, is it really progress or progression of the femininity itself, or merely that what was always there is now coming to light?? That is my case anyway. I am not going to say don't worry about the T- ask any of the TS and in their early journey many of them thought they would be fine with just being CDers. But then we have plenty of members here who have been at a happy place for several decades. So it is possible that Jenny will find her happy place at some point, wherever that is.

    I can only say I do not envision going through transition. I cannot imagine losing "IT" and or doing things or medicating that will make IT not work as it has. While it is a welcome side effect of many TS, that right there keeps me from seriously considering HRT. I can also say that I am continuing to be more comfortable with myself when it comes to my own femininity and dressing. I have never had a thrill about it, but while I can say I do not need it more.... It is more enjoyable now than before when I do dress. I feel even more connected to that part of me than I did 2 years ago. My wife I believe picks up on this and is worried. I understand her worries. I cannot change that. I can only tell her I love her and want always to be with her.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  14. #39
    Silver Member Maria 60's Avatar
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    Well welcome to the crazy life of living with a crossdresser. I apologize once a month to my wife. It is human nature to always want more. I wasn't fair to her from the first day, telling her about the dressing one week back from our honeymoon. But very surprising almost thirty years married believes we have a close relationship because of it. When I told her and we talked about it, I answered her three big questions, " I am not gay", " I have no intention of becoming a women" and " I am fine with keeping it in the closet". My children were always my number one priority, I kept things really tight and didn't want to put any unwanted stress on my children, doing what a parent should do, putting the family first and didn't believe they had to know about my hobby anyway. Well one of the promises I had a problem with, was keeping it in the closet. I wanted to feel the outdoor air, I wanted to walk on ashfalt. Once you eat steak it's hard to go back to chicken, that's the way I see it. With the kids not around as much at the beginning of this year it got very aggressive, I went out a few times fully dressed, mostly driving around and a few times in daylight. One night a dinner conversation she asked me what's going on and why the dressing was getting so aggressive, I couldn't explain these feelings. She told me that I was taking big risks every time I was walking out that door, and believed it was just a matter of time before someone sees me or something happens that's going to expose me, like a car accident or getting pulled cover by police for speeding or something. She told me if it keeps going this way maybe it would be better we tell the children so if something does happen they won't be surprised or shocked, or having to find out on the streets. Knowing she was right and almost feeling what you are feeling that my wife was always giving in, I promised her the closet was fine and now shes bending and she is breaking my promise telling me in not so many words, that if I want to keep going out to tell the kids, that wasn't the deal we made almost thirty years ago. My wife has always supported me with this, telling me she is my pocket aces in my poker hand, all I have to do is ask and not hold back anything, and with her help she wanted me to live all my fantasies and she will buy or do what ever it takes to make sure I am happy and the kids were happy before herself, that must be the life of a good mother and wife, always sacrificing. Wow at that point I realized she would really do anything for me, and without trying or without no withdraws or anything I have never walked out that door fully dressed since that day (excepted underdressing of course) and trying to keep my closet promise. She is asking me now if I am looking forward to going out dressed around the Halloween days and even asked me if I needed anything. I believe there has to be a happy medium, where both parties can win, I can tell she has been more calm since that day and I am sure if you can find that happy place for him, you will also be happy just knowing he is happy. I really feel for the girlfriends and wife's I could tell you are trying to make him happy but it seems like he never is and always wants to push more. I know how he feels and the uncontrollable urges we get. I hope I didn't bore you but I guess I tried to explain as hard as it is for you, I know just like your husband we didn't sign up for this, and I have a lot of respect for you for being by his side through this and even on this sight looking for answers to make him happier, it really shows you do care and love him very much, I know he respects you for it.

  15. #40
    Aspiring Member Jenny Elwood's Avatar
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    Back from holiday in the sticks to find someone dug this thread out of the grave again. If anything, my need to dress has shown signs of seriously RE-gressing in the last month or so. It feels as if everything built up to the highlight that was attending the ballet en femme and since serious disinterest has struck and I only dressed once before going away to make sure no pink fog enveloped me in the Kalahari. Progression smrogression.

  16. #41
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    progression is among the most worried about topics of our partners, and the most sought after topic of us CD's. Because of a certain disinterest at the moment, if that is regression, then at a certain point when the interest goes back up again, then would that become progression? I personally do not view my individual moments whether I have much interest in dressing or not as any type of progression or re-gression. For me, my only true sought after progression is to be comfortable with myself. To be ok with being more feminine than the average male. To be ok with the desires to dress in women's clothes. To be ok with any natural mannerisms I may have that are more typical among women than men. That is my progression, and in becoming more comfortable with it all, more may become apparent, even though I am fine with sticking to agreements I have made with my wife. I am not pushing any physical boundaries, I haven't asked to do more. But I do believe my wife sees me in a more comfortable place with it all. I am sure that can be scary enough.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  17. #42
    Aspiring Member Jenny Elwood's Avatar
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    I suppose you are right GM. Past experience tells me so. It just feels like such a perfect opportunity to exit the 'Trans-' world. Please tell me that it is...

  18. #43
    Silver Member Tina_gm's Avatar
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    Hey Jenny, I have had and still have those moments when I have the opportunity to dress yet am not in a mood to change. Almost like the desire is so minimal that laziness overcomes the desire lol. I am past a point where it ever feels wrong to dress. Early on I would have those feelings, back when I was going through all of the denial and repression. It never feels wrong now, but sometimes I just could care less about dressing. Sometimes I am in just a more masculine state of mind I suppose so there is no urge or desire really when a more masculine state of mind is occurring. I don't fight either the masculine or the feminine (I used to fight the feminine big time)

    If it went away and never came back, I would be grateful for sure. One big headache gone from my life. But I know I can't fight it, it is a losing battle. A BIG waste of energy and when losing this battle can bring on a depressed state of mind as well. If you are not feeling it, don't stress it, just go with it. When and if the fem side comes back, don't stress that either.
    Chickens should be allowed to cross the road without having their motives questioned

  19. #44
    Female Illusionist! docrobbysherry's Avatar
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    Back to Lidea and her OP? It's NOT just about progression. It's about him stifling his urges, whatever level they r at, to please u. And, he may feel guilty about dressing as well. Many of us do.

    For some of us, dressing is like an addiction. Like alcoholics, if we r not allowed to drink at home, we'll sneak out to the garage, take a drive, or go somewhere where folks r sympathetic to our urges. I'm not saying your SO is like that. Just reminding u that to keep discussing this issue is very important. And, while u may feel you're, "giving in"? He may feel he's holding himself back for u!

    If u quit talking about it, that's when he may begin doing it in secret. A much worse situation than u have now. When u can't trust your partner, the outcome is usually not good. I think seeing an experienced counselor is a good suggestion!
    Last edited by docrobbysherry; 10-11-2014 at 12:49 PM.
    U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.

    Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny Elwood View Post
    Progression smrogression.
    Good to hear there's no smrogression on the horizon

    But please tell me the 'sticks' didn't involve an Ebola hot zone??!!

  21. #46
    0 to trans in 60 seconds! Donnagirl's Avatar
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    Jenny & Lidea,

    Guys you are in for a rollercoaster ride, one that keeps presenting boundaries then overstepping them. So many time now I've thought this is it, this is the plateau that I'll settle on and life will just carry us by and it'll be all sunshine and lollypops... Having just spent near on a week in girl mode, the step back has been hard... I'm stupidly bottling up emotions, already losing it quite badly once...

    I used to be happy behind the bedroom door, then in the house while alone, then in front of the wife and sons, then out in public.... Now I need the stimulus that the public environ provides... I will not use the term 'never' any more. Too many times I've left the 'never' in my wake.

    All I can say is work together, talk, negotiate and love what life brings.... I doubt that 'T' is in my future, but.... I am booking another visit to the psych though...

    Boy this screws with us...
    Call me Donna, please

  22. #47
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    I'm going to take issue with the basic idea that there is some kind of inevitable progression from never wearing women's clothes or questioning one's gender identity assigned at birth at the beginning to full transition and sexual reassignment surgery at the other. Human beings love to tell stories. It is a fundamental characteristic of being human, part of our evolutionarily developed pattern recognition. The Transgender Story is a big, thrilling, important and adventurous story indeed. But it is a story. Very few individuals follow the full arc of the story from beginning to end. Most people discover, after the initial thrill of living the adventure subsides a bit, that the story is, in fact, quite a bit less exciting than the really interesting experience of discovering just how flexible gender identity actually is, and how much personal power and gratification we get from stretching our ideas of ourselves. This stretching gives many of us what we might not have had before, a sense of personal freedom and agency that we did not consider possible because it transgressed what seemed like a rock hard social rule - wearing another gender's clothes.

    I would suggest that it is this sense of personal freedom, this realization that we can make ourselves happy by allowing ourselves to present ourselves the way that we actually feel that is the thrill of being transgender or of cross dressing.

    Do we have to cross gender lines more and more to feel this sense of freedom and personal power? Maybe but not necessarily. Cross dressing does not have to be defined as a narcotic drug even if some people do show tolerance and withdrawal and even if wearing another gender's clothes is vaguely similar on a biochemical level because both drugs and cross dressing give us a little dopamine squirt. This kind of reductive thinking that simplifies human beings as merely biological machines is popular but inaccurate. I would argue that most people who have been involved in this type of gender exploration reach a point where they know what makes them happy. They simply don't need more. They don't act like drug addicts needing a bigger and bigger fix.

    But defining gender exploration as a progression may actually increase the possibility that people will follow a script rather than follow their happiness. People may think, because the transgender story is so compelling, that maybe more and more freedom to cross dress, with transition looming in the future, is inevitable. I think there is a real danger in simplifying the complexities of life to a television drama.

    People are much more interesting, strange and inventive than simple plot lines would suggest.

    The personal stories of the people who post on this board are incredibly diverse. Despite the many posts from cross dressers and their spouses worrying about an inevitable progression to full transition I simply don't see this as that common in this forum. I see what I see everywhere in life, people having different lives, living, experimenting with and discarding different stories, learning to be happy or collapsing in misery, achieving what they want, or not, becoming numb or becoming fulfilled. I just see human beings. I don't see people acting out a script.

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    Devida, Amen to that!!! couldn't have said it any better...
    Last edited by MarisaRose.; 10-12-2014 at 03:21 PM.

  24. #49
    Senior Member UNDERDRESSER's Avatar
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    This is not specifically aimed at Jenny and Lidea, or any particular person or couple, just a general observation.

    The problem with not knowing when you married, or uncertainy over how far it will go, and in what direction, is, IMO, often a problem caused by repression. I'm certain many men (they have said so on this forum) don't understand this thing, don't know where it came from, don't understand how much power it has, fear it, are disgusted by it, revolted by what it can make them do...you get the picture. Not all of us, and hardly any have ALL those feelings, but often at least some are there.

    So, they try to bury it, try to ignore it. Then, you, (the wife) find out. You try to understand, try to help, (at least those of you who can) so, there becomes a chance to explore, to try to relax a little, see what this feels like, try to dig out the roots, whatever. Once those layers of repression start to come off, there can be a rebound from that compressed state. Caution is needed at this point, on both sides. Honesty between you, and to ones self is necessary, but can be uncomfortable, even painful. It's difficult, it's not always easy to do self analysis.

    I didn't know why, I still don't know, but am starting to see some of it. I didn’t even think about why, for the most part before I told my SO.

    I thought I would eventually want to try dressing fully, and going out as a believable woman, why? Don't ask me, it just seemed that way. Now, that's receding, though it is on my agenda for an experiment in the future. I am getting used to going out in a skirt, as a man. I like it, it feels right, it's about showing facets of myself that most would call feminine, but I think is something all men (and the women around) can benefit from us showing. So, progression? Yes, I guess, but I tend to think of it as exploration and discovery. I now feel free to actually find, and be, who and what I am. Better for all in the long run.

    Everybody should be free to be open as to who we are, without fear of discrimination. We aren't anywhere near that yet, but, slowly, in small areas, it's happening. If your partner is not who you thought you married, that can be unfortunate, but pretending it isn't the situation isn't going to help them, and probably not you either in the long run. Find out between you who you both are, find out if you can still live with that, if not, well, your choice how you deal with it. Sticking your head in the sand isn't recommended.

    Again, not aimed at any one in particular, a general comment, my 2 cents only, I am not a therapist, your mileage may vary.
    "Normal is what you get when you average out the weirdness that everybody has." Quote from my SO

    Normal is a setting on a washing machine, or another word for average.

    The fact that I wear a skirt as a male should not be taken as a comment on what you do, or do not wear, or how you wear it.

  25. #50
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    2,275
    Group Think is inevitable for almost all if they hang out at certain places with prevalent attitudes long enough. These very Forums are full of such individuals who by their own admissions have "come farther" than they ever dreamed they would. Some even managed to "PROGRESS" themselves right into divorce. The stories ARE here in these Forums. Some are big enough to admit succumbing to GT.

    The simple FACT is that CDing is not in the same category as eating, drinking, sleeping and breathing. For most of the CDers on the planet. Even real GGs face limits on their own "presentation" almost daily if they work outside the home.
    Last edited by Tamara Croft; 10-12-2014 at 07:43 PM. Reason: really? tag timing posts now... thin line??

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