Nowhere "under" the rainbow?

[Tinkerbell-GG]

... heterosexual males with no wish that they had been born female...A "crossdresser" is a male who wears female clothing and accessories from time to time. That's all.

Devida, it's the above that causes confusion about the transgender definition. What if there's no internal female identity and it's literally all about the external aesthetics? What about those who dress as women because it turns them on as a MAN? I guess they technically fit into the T in LGBT, but should they? Do these private (often sexual) dressers really fit in with those who live with public discrimination every day just for being themselves? Do most TS even want to be associated with pleasure dressers?

I suspect it's irrelevant as the more publicly active CDers will likely be further along the TG line. Still, it's a very broad definition and I think the T probably does need narrowing down a bit so as not to include those who don't desire it. It's hardly supportive if people feel forced to be part of something by default, and not because they feel they belong there. I love to have a glass of champagne every now and then, but that doesn't mean I can relate to people who are alcoholics, or that I need the support of AA. Not yet, anyway!

[Lorileah]

I know this will inspire some critique..
But after viewing (but not participating in) some pride events this past summer I cannot say I am very comfortable under the LGBT rainbow banner.

What banner are you comfortable under? I think people who don't want to be "under the banner" don't really understand what the banner is. You don't have to be black to support anti-racism right? You don't have to be a woman to support feminism. You don't have to be a duck to support Ducks unlimited. You do have to be empathetic and understand equality though. OK don't play with that group. I always wonder what you would do if tomorrow the government outlawed ANY man wearing ANY piece of women's clothing even in private. What if they decided that if you get caught in let's say the ER with panties on you go to jail or a psych ward? Yes I know that sounds extreme but if you think about it it isn't that far fetched. If you don't go out and you are always hidden you cannot see the big picture because you are cloistered.

So I always have to ask, what banner should the T's be under? None? Remember it wasn't too long ago it was illegal in many states. What you are doing, in the privacy of your own home, was illegal. Your neighbors could turn you in. Not thinking you are a part of a larger problem is a problem. But that is just me as a social rights person talking. When everyone can walk free and proud without being marginalized by others over gender, sex, religion, physical ability(disability), color, race, background; then we won't need banners. In the meantime, it is your choice. But don't think of yourself as a open mined progressive and caring person

[Dianne S]

I'm fine with the LGBT banner, even though I recognize that the LG(B?) community has slightly different fights than the T community. I think uniting is better than dividing, even if we're not totally on the same page.

There's certainly a place for transgender rights groups that concern themselves primarily with transgender issues and not with LGB issues, but there's also place for uniting and affirming everyone's right to respect and dignity.

There are some gay and lesbian people who put down transgendered people (Dan Savage has said some obnoxious things) and there are some trans people, primarily heterosexual crossdressers, who have said some pretty homophobic things. Both are harmful and both should be called out.

[Annaliese]

Work within your comfort zone, no one should ask any more from you, and that comfort zone can change either direction depending on event in ones own life.

[Katey888]

This is an interesting and important discussion, I feel... and has brought up an associated relevancy again...

Devida, it's the above that causes confusion about the transgender definition. What if there's no internal female identity and it's literally all about the external aesthetics? What about those who dress as women because it turns them on as a MAN? I guess they technically fit into the T in LGBT, but should they?

Tinks – FWIW my on this which I think fits with our forum definition of TG… Those who dress for purely sexual return might technically fit, but I suspect they probably shouldn’t. I’m no shrink but the way I see the sexual aspect of this for those whose return is purely sexual, theirs is more of a fetish that may relate to women or presenting female or it may just be connected with the clothing in a sensual way.

For those who no longer have or have never had any sexual component, those who just dress female “because they enjoy it”, I think we need to ask the question: If it’s not a gender issue that prompts this behaviour, then what the heck is it? IMHO, those folk have a gender issue of some sort and therefore should be considered TG. If not, this is like someone who maintains they’re not an alcoholic because they’re not drinking a full bottle of gin before breakfast, only by lunchtime…

Thus…

Don't take my word about the definition of transgender. Read the definition that cross dressers.com provides. There the definition states that being transgender just means that your gender identity varies (in different degrees with different individuals) from the gender you were defined as having at birth. I do not understand how a man, straight or not, dressing in women's clothes does not meet the standards of that definition.

…is the right answer!

I didn’t realise what TG was before I arrived here – now I understand the context of the term and what I feel drives me and I am able to accept that I am a touch TG… <shrugs> It doesn’t mean I’m gay, bi, want to transition, like men when dressed… recognising that I am TG hasn't actually changed me at all - but what else explains the flouting of otherwise totally accepted norms of gender presentation for any of us???

Katey x

[Michelle789]

I think the OP's question is more about whether a crossdresser should fit under the TG umbrella, which is a separate question whether the T should be grouped with the LGB in the LGBT umbrella. They're two separate but related groupings.

The TG umbrella definition officially includes crossdressers, although the media's portrayal of TG means TS, and usually MTF TS. I noticed that some crossdressers identify as TG but not TS, while other CDers don't identify as trans anything, just as crossdressers. It's a really gray area and is very debatable where people fit. IMO, CDers have a milder form of gender dysphoria than a TS, and a CD can typically control the GD with occasional CDing and never needs to transition, while a TS it is usually a life or death matter - we transition so we can live. Usually a TS either wants to end their life and/or is living in misery as a male. I was certainly both - I wanted to end my life during 2012-2013 and was unhappy as a male - and eventually downright miserable living as a male by 2014. Transition saved my life and is allowing me to actually live life as opposed to just going through motions and isolating.

@Ophelia
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you not feel comfortable under the LGBT umbrella but okay as part of the T, or do you feel that as a CDer you don't even belong with the T?

@Tinkerbell
I think that fetish dressers have a milder form of GD just like a non-fetish CDer does too, and fetish dressers and underdressers are crossdressers. We can range from fetish dressers, to CDers who dress partially or fully from head to toe but only in private, to CDers who venture out en femme, to full-time CDers,to gender fluid, to TS. Regardless of where we fall on the gender spectrum, we can either stay where we are, or progress to any further level.

So a fetish dresser may remain a fetish dresser their entire life, or progress to a full dresser and may leave the house en femme, and may even transition some day. They might progress through the various levels, or in some cases a fetish dresser might just one day suddenly transition (although it's unlikely you will actually transition).

A closeted dresser who dresses fully from head to toe (non-fetish) may progress to dressing in public or transition, or they might remain in the closet forever.

A CDer who dresses publicly may transition or remain a public CDer forever.

Someone who has never CDed at all in their life, not even fetish dressing, may start fetish dressing some day, or may dress fully as a woman in the closet or publicly, or may transition too. They might progress through all of the levels, or even go from never wearing a single article of woman's clothing in their life to full transition.

What I am saying is regardless of where you are on the spectrum you can either stay where you are or progress further. You may progress slowly and through all the stages or suddenly end up transitioning and skip all the in between phases.

The only thing that won't happen - you won't go backward. If you try to go backward, you will some day move forward again - even if it isn't for 20-30 years, and likely it will be WAY sooner before you move forward again.

And most likely if you are a CD - fetish or not - you most likely will never transition, but there is always a small possibility.

[Brianna_H]

I'm happy to stand under a rainbow banner in this circumstance - so many of society think we're gay anyway, at least that's removing one minor element of dissonance in the minds of the muggles... And so what if they do...? x

Yup. That's me, too. Putting the T in LGBT!

Oh, and the B.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I'll just take up the human banner all the details just get in the way.

[arbon]

I don't find myself having much in common with this group and its very legitimate and important social concerns.
What say you?

You don't have to be a part of it.

[Jorja]

I agree a lot with what has already been said here. So here is the deal, if you like or at least don't mind the term Transgender, you are welcome under the umbrella. If you do not like or even care for the term Transgender then go on your merry way and enjoy life the way you like it.

However, know this, The GLBT movement is responsible for all of the past and current advances in social rights for all of us under this umbrella. This didn't just happen overnight. There was a time when a man wearing a dress and walking down the street would be arrested and thrown in jail, no questions asked. You could be arrested and thrown in jail if your neighbor reported you and you had never been outside of your little closet that you guard so diligently. You would be deemed mentally ill and incarcerated in a mental institution. While there you would be subject to "experiments" to see why you like to wear women's clothing. Very few were ever seen again. If you did manage to get released, your brain was fried or worse.

No one says that you have to do anything to belong to the GLBT movement. If you say you are TG,TS or any of the other combinations that fall under the umbrella then fine you are a part of it. If you want to vote in a manner that aligns with GLBT agenda then fine, you did your part. If you are good at writing checks and have plenty of money, then write until you are content. However, if you like the spotlight, then they have a job for you. They are always looking for someone that can and will stand up and let their voice be heard. It depends upon you. Nobody is going to come knocking on your closet door. How deeply do you want to get involved?

[Seana Summer]

I doubt I would fit under the rainbow myself, though I am sure they would accept my donation of time or money and I agree it is an important movement. I as well as society as a whole, benefits from it.

While some have dreamed of a day when we can all Crossdress openly, it is an even a grander dream to imagine a day when everyone can tolerate each other and stop worrying about which group we belong to........ Human rights are for all

[Wildaboutheels]

Why do people insist on making this so complicated?

If you are a person who maintains "I don't know WHY I do this" then you should be willing to do your part and not simply whip out the NIMBY attitude/card [so prevalent here] whenever it is convenient.

If you DON'T keep asking why/understand "it" from you own perspective, is it any wonder that many here would want to divest themselves from some/any of the [apparently] prevailing attitudes that are commonly expressed here by CDers themselves? [Almost 300 responses to the effect of "I like men but ONLY when I am dressed] This site IS NOT fabricating all these responses.

Besides just who or what committee decided to throw LGBT all into the same pot?

Perhaps the same genius who decided on the ATF bureau?

Hookers/prostitution ain't stopping anytime soon. What banner would they go under? They are simply filling a demand aren't they?

[Jorja]

They may have thrown GLBT into one pot but it is all we have right now. Are you going to start a political action group Wild? No, I didn't think so, yet you want to complain about it.

[MelanieAnne]

I've been crossdressing all my life. But I'm not into wearing speedos, chaps, and tuu tuus, and blowing whistles in parades. And that group is not doing us or themselves any favors. While they may have some legitimate issues, the way they are going about it just invites blowback and ridicule.

[AllieSF]

Melanie, since these pride parades have been going on for a very long time with not much blow back to date, I would love to read your sources and negative experiences with that. The LGBT successes are significant and the Pride parades and festivities help. Here in San Francisco you can see Dykes on Bikes, drag queens, southern Belles when members from the River City Gems, a wonderful support in Sacramento, march with families, children, police, firemen, major companies floats, political dignitaries, actors and professional athletes and diverse other marching contingents. Yes, around those formal activities you will also see the occasional "naked man" and women baring their breasts, as well as pot smoking, dancing and just having a great time. The tourists love the whole thing many times having their (women and young girls) pictures taken with some of those wandering naked man. Now, just because they have the Pride parades does not mean anyone under or near the big umbrella has to participate. That is all voluntary. I go for the festivities and do not march. I do however support when I can. Oh, I too am not into wearing speedos, leather chaps, nor tuu tuus. I do blow the whistles, shout and interact with everyone around me and in the parade when I can get their attention.

[Rogina B]

I agree a lot with what has already been said here. So here is the deal, if you like or at least don't mind the term Transgender, you are welcome under the umbrella. If you do not like or even care for the term Transgender then go on your merry way and enjoy life the way you like it.

However, know this, The GLBT movement is responsible for all of the past and current advances in social rights for all of us under this umbrella. This didn't just happen overnight. However, if you like the spotlight, then they have a job for you. They are always looking for someone that can and will stand up and let their voice be heard. It depends upon you. Nobody is going to come knocking on your closet door. How deeply do you want to get involved?

I really enjoy being involved in making change happen here in NE Florida...Very satisfying....I only wish more would get involved...

[MelanieAnne]

Here in San Francisco you can see Dykes on Bikes, drag queens, southern Belles when members from the River City Gems, a wonderful support in Sacramento, march with families, children, police, firemen, major companies floats, political dignitaries, actors and professional athletes and diverse other marching contingents.

The Peoples Republic of San Francisco does not represent mainstream America.

[Kimberly Kael]

I've been crossdressing all my life. But I'm not into wearing speedos, chaps, and tuu tuus, and blowing whistles in parades.

Have you actually attended a Pride Parade, or are you just parroting the FOX "news" view of the events? There's a huge range of humanity represented from the unfamiliar to families who look no different from anyone else until you start counting mommies or daddies, and that's part of the point. If there's a list of acceptable forms of self-expression then by definition there's a list of unacceptable forms and I hate to break it to you, but crossdressing is on that second list. The best step forward is to promote the controversial opinion that people should be welcome to be themselves even if you can't understand why.

And that group is not doing us or themselves any favors. While they may have some legitimate issues, the way they are going about it just invites blowback and ridicule.

Shall we compare the social progress made by closeted crossdressers to out and proud gay activists over the past few decades? You are, of course, welcome to your opinion but I'm with "them."

[AllieSF]

The Peoples Republic of San Francisco does not represent mainstream America.

It does much more than you think! The LGBT Pride umbrella is in Chicago, New York, Ferndale (Michigan), Sacramento, Los Angeles and many other large mainstream American cities, including some mid-sized ones, plus in many international cities all over the world. Is that mainstream enough for you? No one says that you have to participate nor like these events. But, just remember, they have helped all of us obtain rights that we would never have gained without that bigger umbrella. They are a celebration of rights gained, a drive to obtain more rights and sometimes a protest about inequalities. They are attended by people from all over the world. They are not only good for us, but also for the local economy. Everyone benefits. So, what is wrong with that?

Also remember that the past mayor of San Francisco, Gavin Newsome, who is now Lieutenant Governor for the State, was the first to legalize same sex marriage in the city of San Francisco, which is not a "Peoples Republic" but a very progressive and dynamic city if you have never had the opportunity to visit. Now there are several states that have legalized it with more to come.

[MelanieAnne]

"To each his own". It's your life. Do what you want with it.

[Stephanie Sometimes]

To those CD’s that don’t like the idea of being defined as Transgender: what part of crossdressing does not fit under the concept of transferring one’s gender presentation? That is a trans-gender action if ever there was one. I am happy to be part of a larger group than just CD’s. Not to mention that I am happy to have a more serious sounding label than just crossdresser (which always sounded to me like a term for some ongoing perpetual fashion disaster, LOL).

The LGB folks in the LGBT umbrella are often discriminated against for the same basic stupid reasons that we in the T group are discriminated against: not fitting neatly into some arbitrary, false and inaccurate definition of gender and/or sexuality imposed by whatever dominant group is currently in power over the minds of large groups of people in society.

I am happy to have Brothers and Sisters in the LGBT community and glad to help support their fight for equality. And very grateful for the sacrifices that many of them have made in the past that make me more accepted today when I step out the door.

Hugs,
Stephanie

[AllieSF]

"To each his own". It's your life. Do what you want with it.

Melanie, I would appreciate your reasoning for your point of view and answers to my questions much more than your one line dismissive comment. You have strong opinions, so please defend them maturely. I have an open mind and may learn something.

[MelanieAnne]

OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have? The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime. Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private. And their tactics are pretty much in your face. You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud". "We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it". A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

[Brianna_H]

Now please explain what rights they are denied.

Wow.

Really?

That closet has really thick walls.

Marriage

Identity

Life

Freedom to pursue happiness

And no you don't see heterosexual people acting out (except they do) because they are all you see. Banal LGBT characters wouldn't even exist on TV if it weren't for the rioters and protesters marching in their underwear to create a scene, to force the government and society to pay attention to the violence and the suicide and then AIDS.

#yeswecan

[docrobbysherry]

While I feel like I'm stepping in between 2 folks in a pissing contest, I think I can say with some certainty that ANY male who consistently enjoys wearing women's things for ANY reason is trans.

In my experience I was a regular, vanilla male until age 50+. I did not try on women's things even tho I had many opportunities thruout my previous life. Why not? Because I, like other vanilla men, never even think about that!

U may consider yourself part of the community or not. And, participate or not. But, whatever u think, if u r a male and enjoy wearing women's things, u r not a regular guy and u probably HAVE THINGS IN COMMON WITH OTHER DRESSERS!