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Thread: Question for Canadian Members or Those Who May Know

  1. #26
    Aspiring drama queen Isabella Ross's Avatar
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    Isha, my Canadian sister, I feel for you. But I find myself nodding in agreement with Krisi and Gillian. I think it's vital that anyone working in critical security areas has the ability to view official ID and compare it to the person standing in front of them...and that's what happens during the final gate check in Canada, even on domestic flights. I find similarities between this situation and the furor that erupted when women of Muslim faith demanded that they should not be required to remove the veil in court, etc. Sometimes we just need to prove who we are. In the absence of a full transition and all the legal steps one must take to complete this, I think presenting ourselves as who we are on our official ID is a small price to pay for living in our great country. Furthermore, the US is also similar. Here's the official word from the US TSA:

    "Making Reservations: Secure Flight requires airlines to collect a traveler’s full name, date of birth, gender and Redress Number (if applicable) to significantly decrease the likelihood of watch list misidentification. Travelers are encouraged to use the same name, gender, and birth date when making the reservation that match the name, gender, and birth date indicated on the government-issued ID that the traveler intends to use during travel."

    Note, however, that travelers are only "encouraged" rather than forced to present themselves in the same gender as their ID.

    But while we may differ on the need for the policy, we are certainly in agreement over one thing: the agent you dealt with, and the superior who was consulted, were rude and insulting...and clearly in need of formal reeducation, reassignment, and even possibly dismissal.

  2. #27
    Gone to live my life
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    Hi Bridgette,

    No issues with yours, Gillian's or Krisis' beliefs. However, I caution that I have seen first hand the direct result of "give up some rights in the name of freedom" in other countries and when it gets started it doesn't end. As someone who has spent a greater part of his adult life defending this nation I am saddened to see "curtailing of rights" hidden under the guise of "safety" . . . we saw this same thing during WWII with Japanese nationals held in interment camps, property confiscated and no apology afterwards . . . heck it was just in the name of security and safety after all.

    Hugs

    Isha

  3. #28
    Martini Girl Katey888's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm know I'm not Canadian and I think Reine has closed off the 'Those Who May Know' aspect, but I have spent quite a few years working with the security services here in the UK including the period of the 2005 London bombings.

    Isha, I feel bad for you that you have been made to feel the way you have as rudeness and lack of tact is simply inexcusable, from any public service employee, and I hope they get a sound, metaphorical thrashing for it! I think the legal enforceability of the law is questionable and although the rationale (of preventing someone disguised as someone they are not) seems sound, I don't believe any terrorist acts are carried out by perps disguised in a Mission Impossible-esque way... however, the civilian security services have a serious job to do and the ramifications of them allowing a perp through screening are just too horrible and nightmarish to consider. I do believe it is better that a few innocent people are inconvenienced versus 200 innocent people meeting a fiery end...

    It is a reduction of our freedom, but it's one of those compromises that we make in order to be part of a broad society that curtails some freedoms in order to safeguard others. Travelling to Germany on vacs through Heathrow a few years back I was pulled to one side at security because I had forgotten that my mini-Leatherman was in the coin pocket of my jeans... I had the full grilling over a 1" pair of scissors and a tiny blade and was doubly embarrassed because at the time I was working with the Met Police who provide the police presence at the airport, although I think that fact helped reduce the lecture a little... my point being, I think the restriction on small sharps is totally absurd when you can buy much more effective weapons in the duty free shops at any major airport - but we have to go along with some arbitrary measures - and keeping it clear about proving identity is probably one of those areas.

    The rudeness and approach is inexcusable - I think the need to both prove and validate identity is a genuine one, although you'd think that either finger-vein or iris recognition would be better, more sophisticated, non-subjective and non-gender related ways to go about it... perhaps you could suggest that as part of your complaint?

    Katey x
    "Put some lipstick on - Perfume your neck and slip your high heels on
    Rinse and curl your hair - Loosen your hips, and get a dress to wear"
    Stefani Germanotta

  4. #29
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    Hi all,

    No issues with people's belief's about safety and we are all entitled. However, I would like to bring this thread back on point if possible and ask if any Canadian members have recently travelled "en femme" (well since 2012 when the regulation went into force) and what was their experience (good or bad).

    Hugs

    Isha

  5. #30
    Aspiring drama queen Isabella Ross's Avatar
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    Isha, I have not...and I apologize for my part in trending away from your original question. Heck, I'm nervous stepping out on my back deck, let alone into an airport. I did want to concede that it can be a slippery slope from maintaining security to erosion of personal rights and freedoms.
    Last edited by Katey888; 10-14-2014 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Need to keep away from the politics please... :)

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    "Unless you have your equipment removed or have a doctor's letter saying it will be done within the year, it is illegal to fly as the opposite gender".
    This is the part that I find curious. From what I've seen, I believe 1 year is often a minimum of time that one must live as female (assuming M2F) before being approved for SRS. Sounds like the regulation was created without much input from professionals who counsel pre-op transexuals.

  7. #32
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    "you are presenting as a woman and your ID says male . . . no flight for you"
    Isha, the regulations say nothing about how a person presents (which I take to mean clothing choices). The wording is, "(c) the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents;"

    I'll get back to my earlier point. If a TS has not yet legally changed her gender marker from M to F but she has had FFS and HRT, and her features have changed considerably since her last passport picture, could she not have a new picture taken? If the passenger looks like her picture, then what would be the issue? Presumably such a person would also be in transition, and it would not be difficult to carry a letter as is directed in Item 5.2(2), until such time as her gender marker is changed?

    In the case of someone whose features have not changed and the difference in presentation is only a wig, forms, and clothing, then I do not see how an employee or their supervisor can make a judgment on the hair and clothing, especially if the passenger is visibly male and pulls the hair back to reveal a face that looks like the passport picture.

    When I buy a ticket online, they always ask my gender. It's not on the ticket but it's in their database.

    I agree though, the law is poorly worded. I hope they are working on improving it.
    Reine

  8. #33
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    Update 1

    Hi all,

    A bit of an update as finding any information (definitive in nature that is) on this subject is like spotting a Leprechaun chasing a Sasquatch while riding a Unicorn.

    I finally got through to CSTSA agent to discuss my experience at the Airport with the two DBs. He informed me that they (CSTSA) agents do not verify identity only the boarding pass and the security of the carry on luggage so the issue does not lie with CSTSA and he also indicated that the two who were rude will be sanctioned accordingly (whatever that means) as they had no right to speak to such policy. He further indicated that it is up to the Airline Boarding Gate personnel to verify identity and to his knowledge no TG persons have been prevented from flying but then again he was not sure if any had either. His understanding is that if you can be discerned from your ID (facial feature recognition) then there should not be a problem however as far as he knows, there is no guidance given to Airline personnel on making that call.

    My next call was to Air Canada . . . what a joy that was. I talked to several people and asked about their TG policy and identity screening and nobody could answer my question directly as they were not sure. One person was not aware of any identity restrictions, one person suggested that I just save myself some hassle and fly male, another said it should not be a problem so long as I don't look too pretty but look more like a guy (WTF ) and the most disturbing response was . . . "well it is left up to the individual boarding gate agent. If he/she doesn't believe that is you in your ID then they have the right to deny you boarding" So I asked if push came to shove and I removed my wig so they could get a better look at my face would that suffice? The response . . . "It really depends on the agent. If he/she believes that you are trying to conceal your identity by dressing as a woman it is their call. You have the right to complain and seek a second opinion but it is unlikely they will override the initial call and you will be asked to leave." He added that it is not only about the gender you present but how you appear in comparison to the photo ID. He recommended be up front at check in, indicate you are TG and things should be okay as he has never heard of any TG persons being denied boarding a flight based on incongruent ID but then again he could not speak to every case.

    Reine,

    I asked the agent I talked to about what information is given to employees about what "gender" means. His was response was very telling on how they are applying the term "gender" . . . "Well if you look like a woman and your travel document says "male" then you do not match the gender on your travel documents and this can be an area of concern." I then asked him how does the agent determine if I "look like" a woman. His reply . . . "Well if have longer hair, are wearing women's clothing, make-up and you know look like other women then that is a cause for concern and may be questioned". So, it is easy to see that agents especially in the absence of policy will confuse "look" with "gender". Added to confusion is the other part of the identity screening policy:

    5.2 (1) An air carrier shall not transport a passenger if:

    (a) the passenger presents a piece of photo identification and does not resemble the photograph;

    While I may resemble my boy self when I am presenting as Isha (kind of like a better looking sister ) It is still the boarding gate agent's call in that no guidelines exist for them to go by. So, they are free to interpret the regulation as they wish. If the agent feels I am trying to disguise myself he/she can deny me boarding regardless of whether I take off my wig, remove make-up and strip down to my underwear to prove I am 100% guy. This is just a agent doing due diligence with no other hidden agenda. Now what happens when I go up against an agent whose personal belief about TG persons is that we are an abomination, perverts, creeps and degenerates . . . these people do exist and the balance of probabilities would indicate that some are employed as Air Canada personnel. This same person doesn't have to be overtly discriminative in order to discriminate against us based on personal belief. He/she only need look at my ID, smile and say "Sorry ma'am, but I cannot let you board as your ID picture looks nothing like you. Have a nice day." Oh, I could indicate I am willing to remove my wig (nice embarrassing moment for any TG person) and he/she cans still say "Sorry, for the safety of the plane, I cannot let you board". If I continue to argue I am more likely to find myself flanked by two RCMP Officers being escorted from the airport for being a disturbance.

    So in the absence of information (more like disinformation) I have decided to travel as Isha. My plan is to arrive at the airport, present my travel documents and declare myself TG and see what happens. Now the annoying part is that in the absence of clear Air Canada policy to its employees, I will have to go through this each time I board a connecting flight. So it is plausible that I might make it through Ottawa, Toronto only to get denied boarding in Calgary prior to my last flight to Vancouver and even then I could be denied boarding for my flight to Victoria.

    Ah . . . now don't you feel safer knowing that crazy fundamentalist TG persons can be kicked from a flight at the whim and fancy of one person's definition of what gender means or how you present.

    I'll let you know how it goes . . . keeping my fingers crossed.

    Hugs

    Isha
    Last edited by Marcelle; 10-15-2014 at 05:17 AM.

  9. #34
    Silver Member Rogina B's Avatar
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    Here in the states,this is where the state ID card with your girl pic comes into play..
    It SURE is my hair ! I have the receipt and the box it came in !

  10. #35
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Isha, I was also as impressed with Air Canada as you are ! To call it the national carrier is taking the *****!! and I was travelling in drab !!

    I take it you couldn't get a through flight to save you the annoyance of connections ?

    Best of luck ! If we hear of Isha's wig being tied to an Air Canada tailplane we know all did not go well !!

  11. #36
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    Hi Isha, We will be waiting for further details of your trip, GOOD LUCK .
    Having my ears triple pierced is AWESOME, ~~......

    I can explain it to you, But I can't comprehend it for you !

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  12. #37
    Junior Member Michelle Deere's Avatar
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    Holly smokes Isha....Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver to Victoria....that's one heck of a milk run to get across the country, or are you stopping en-route?
    Obviously, lots of opportunity to "test the system".
    To paraphrase a classic movie line "I just wanna tell you: good luck. We're all counting on you".
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  13. #38
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    Update 2

    Hi all,

    I just received a long winded e-mail from Air Canada's Customer Service regarding my follow-up query. For the most part is was a cut and paste of the Transport Canada ruling and changes to the security screening but this is the part that hit home and effectively ended my trip "en femme" that is.

    In order to comply with both governmental regulations, and security requirements, it is in your best interest to travel in the gender in which your identification is issued in.
    We look forward to welcoming you onboard for travel.
    Best Regards,


    I did send a follow-up e-mail and asked does this mean I can or cannot and the response was that they (Air Canada) cannot guarantee the right to board at any stage of the journey as that is up to the individual boarding agent. So in other words . . . if you are Transgender and wish to fly on Air Canada you are taking a risk that you can be ejected from your trip at any connecting gate. So unless your passport says "F" you are welcome to try with the "M" moniker but it is a flip of the coin . . . funny considering they "Look forward to welcoming me onboard for travel" . . . well so long as I am dressed like a dude so as not to upset their sensibilities.

    So this gal has taken her TG banner as far as it can go as I need to travel for business and getting ejected from a flight would not be welcome at work. I will however pass this to my Member of Parliament . . . not that I am expecting anything as she is a Conservative and her government put these rules in effect.

    Hugs and sorry I could not strike a victory for the greater good of the community.

    Isha
    Last edited by Marcelle; 10-15-2014 at 12:13 PM.

  14. #39
    Pooh Bear Judith96a's Avatar
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    I'm not sure whether the "board/not board" decision being effectively at the discretion of the gate agent is worrying or reassuring!

    On the one hand, airline gate staff tend to be rather more approachable than airport security or the cops (though it's gotta be said that in my experience police officers tend to be very well trained, very professional and unglazed by anything - somewhat intimidating but, unless you give them reason to believe that you're a potential problem, unlikely to make a fuss). Airline staff tend to want boarding to run smoothly etc. Handling agent staff, in my experience, tend to appear rather less well trained, more officious and much less concerned about either the smoothness of the boarding process or the airline's reputation.
    My guess would be that faced with a crossdressed man who looks rather different from the photo on their ID :-
    Most police officers will take a hard look, perhaps several hard looks, and then say "thank you ma'am, that's fine". (And probably have a quiet chuckle with their mate)
    An airline gate agent will either have several good looks, possibly consult with their colleague etc. and the say "Ok" or will punt the decision to their supervisor (unless, of course, you get an officious *****)
    A handling agent agent may not even bother looking at your ID, but if they do is likely to become terminally confused, do the first thing that enters their head and refuse to budge

    One snippet that I picked up on a recent flight (different context, nothing to do with CDing) is that, unless the Captain needs to get involved, the final decision as to who / what goes in the cabin rests with the Cabin Services Manager. So, if your concerned about what the gate agent may decide then it might be worth asking to speak to the CSM. Remember that they have a thousand and one things to do in order to get the aircraft ready for passengers, so they may not be thrilled at having to leave the aircraft (especially if they're across the tarmac on a wet day). However, if the CSM says "yes" then the gate agent, airline or otherwise, is unlikely to argue. Hope that this doesn't come across as patronising etc. - it's intended as a compliment to busy gate staff - in my experience asking for the gate staff's help up front, ie before they start actually boarding, (especially if the person whom you approach is female and 30+) works. (In my case the lady in question was very helpful but wasn't quite sure of the best thing to do and suggested consulting the CSM - who sorted the problem very acceptably in 10s flat!)

    Hope that you have a pleasant and hassle-free trip. Look forward to hearing the debrief!

  15. #40
    Platinum Member Teresa's Avatar
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    Isha, Not the right outcome but an expected one ! Sorry about your plans ! Is there much choice of other Airlines across Canada ? Might be interesting to see what their policy is !

    I still wish you a good trip !

  16. #41
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    An unfortunate ruling. I would suggest in addition to passing it on to your member of parliament that you could lodge a complaint with your Antidiscrimination commissioner and also pass on the email trail to any local community legal organisations that have an interest in GLBT rights.

    It is somewhat disconcerting that you cannot board the plane dressed as you wish but once on the plane you can consume alcohol as much as you wish with all of the associated issues that that results in. I agree with others as well, lesson 101 in terrorism surely is to blend in, boarding a plane as a cross dresser is hardly blending in. The idea that a terrorist would think that dressing in a manner inconsistent with the gender marker on their travel documents is quite frankly just plain dumb.

  17. #42
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha View Post
    He further indicated that it is up to the Airline Boarding Gate personnel to verify identity and to his knowledge no TG persons have been prevented from flying but then again he was not sure if any had either. His understanding is that if you can be discerned from your ID (facial feature recognition) then there should not be a problem however as far as he knows, there is no guidance given to Airline personnel on making that call.
    This is how I read the wording as well. If you look like your picture, then there is no issue. As to airline personnel, they just want to board people safely. You might well run into the lone individual who disapproves of transgenders and who wants to make it an issue, but there are supervisors and more supervisors beyond the supervisors. The goal is to prevent someone from boarding under a disguise who wants to blow up a plane or smuggle goods. I should think that individuals who want to do this would not go up the chain of command if refused boarding, and anyone who did would be offered courteous service with a prompt apology.

    I'm sorry that so few people were able to answer your query. If a greater percentage of our population chose to adopt the styles of the opposite sex, I think the laws would be more clearly written and individuals working for airlines and CSTSA would be better trained and they would have daily exposure to gender-nonconforming individuals. As it is, you spoke to individuals who likely had no experience and a different mental image or a sketchy image of the experience you were describing. Rules generally apply reasonably well to the majority, but not so well to the percentages at either end of the spectrum.

    The wording really does need reworking to both keep the guidelines that are meant to prevent people who wish to disguise themselves for nefarious reasons (including non-TG men who adopt a woman's disguise), all while respecting a person's right to express an innate gender. Also, personnel need better training to interpret the meaning of the law. Hopefully your queries will help move things along.
    Reine

  18. #43
    I've made it and love it Jennifer-GWN's Avatar
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    Isha;

    A close friend says when encountering these kind of situations where all you can do is bang your head again and again and again is know that it will feel soooo good when you stop. Your making so much progress at work it's disheartening to have to deal with this nonsense. Canada is healed up as a diversity and multicultural country and this situation with AC just rots.

    Now remember that AC is based in Quebec and from a Provincial government perspective they are fighting the Muslim women / head scarf in quite a nontollerent way which to a degree is somewhat similar here. Just a thought of perspective.

    Stand your ground for what is right.

    Head in my hands.... Jennifer

  19. #44
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    I flew within Canada in summer 2013, and New Years 2013, and had no difficulty in this respect.

    If I am going to have difficulty it would more likely be after a gender marker change, as my face is not so female looking.

  20. #45
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    Update 3

    So after consultation and advice from various members of the Trans community in my local area I have decided to dig my heels in (no pun intended ) on this one. I have bumped my initial Air Canada query up to the management level to see what response I get from the policy makers and I have sent a query to my Member of Parliament.

    In the interim, I will test the waters and fly and Isha this Sunday.

    Hugs

    Isha
    Last edited by Marcelle; 10-16-2014 at 07:33 AM.

  21. #46
    Junior Member Michelle Deere's Avatar
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    Wishing you safe and trouble free travels Isha.
    Some of my thoughts on crossdressing at http://themichelleinme.wordpress.com/
    A repository of Michelle photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/14176339@N04/

  22. #47
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    Thanks Michelle,

    I am probably getting all spun up due to the Air Canada responses and hype this regulation received back in 2012 but I still can't help being very nervous.

    Regarding the "milk run" flight . . . yeah as this was booked travel for work they went for the cheapest fare so I will be collecting milk and testing the system in several airports.

    Hugs

    Isha

  23. #48
    Swans have more fun! sandra-leigh's Avatar
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    DailyXtra reports people have had problems in practice.

    A spokesperson for Transport Canada told Xtra in 2012 that people who may be affected by the regulations would be permitted to fly if they provide medical certificates. The clause the spokesperson cited, however, refers to a mismatch between the photo and the person’s face, not between the sex inscription and the person’s perceived sex.

    “I get little reassurance from this provision in the identity screening regulations that says it will be fine if you have a doctor’s letter with you,” Smith says. “This section has to do with a mismatch between photo ID and the person, so if you no longer match the image of yourself, there is a requirement that says you can have a doctor’s letter. But what I’m hearing from members of my community and from clients of mine is that, despite having a doctor’s letter, trans people are often grounded because their identity documents don’t match their current appearance.”

    Between Passport Canada’s and Transport Canada’s rules, many trans and intersex Canadians who need or wish to travel are reluctant to do so.

    “I’ve avoided going anywhere because of having to travel with my [female] passport,” says Lennox LePage, a trans man who sits on the board of directors of Pride Muskoka in Ontario. “I certainly wouldn’t attempt to fly with my passport for any reason.”

  24. #49
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    Hi Sandra,

    That is exactly what I am nervous about . . . goodness could they make travelling anymore nerve wrecking. Oh well, I am still going to give it a go . . . if I get grounded well my next stop will be the papers. I suppose people won't care or won't understand (just man up and dress like a dude . . . geez what's the problem) but then again those people have no concept what it means to be TG.

    Thanks again

    Isha

  25. #50
    Senior Member samantha rogers's Avatar
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    Well, here I am, late to the party...as always. But, for what its worth, a good friend who joined us in Atlanta for SCC came from Canada. She flew to the US in drab but returned en femme. My recollection is that she had no real difficulty.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly about giving up freedoms to protect them. I have always thought that line to be wrong. But in this case what I find appalling is the amount of control and power that a poorly written policy gives to so many individuals at such low levels of regular authority. It simply opens the door, as you say, for one close minded jerk to wreak havoc.
    I know there is much discussion within the tg world as to "proper" strategy for making this world better for us within this community. I know many prefer to quietly blend and take no activist role. I know others prefer a more "in their face" confrontational approach. I think this (travel) is an area where quietly blending is the wrong approach. I know you and I know you will be polite, tasteful, friendly and logical. I am so glad you have decided to go for it. I cannot think of anyone better suited to serve as ambassador in this situation. I do hope it goes smoothly.I so hope it is all good and you are able to experience the joy of being yourself in this new situation. But if there is a problem, I know you will handle it superbly. If nothing else, simply reveal your amazing service record and ask them how they feel about abusing the rights of someone who has given so much to protect their rights. I would love to hear the answer to that question.
    Please do let us know how this goes. I will be waiting with bated breath.
    So proud of you, girl!
    Every fear that held me back, when faced, has proven to be hollow.
    Courage is not the lack of fear, but the willingness to ignore it.
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