Not trans? Huh? I don't get it.

[Nadine Spirit]

While reading a different thread a member stated that they were "not trans." I will make the assumption and fill in the end of that as "not transgender." This is an idea that I have read from many members actually. If we look at the definition of transgender given from WPATH it states "Transgender: Adjective to describe a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth."

I m not quite sure what the aversion to identifying as transgender is? But further than that, if you do not identify as "trans" why do you think you do what you do? Is it just a passing fancy? An interesting way to spend some time?

Like you had a list of various things to do: go bowling, fix up an old hot rod, dust the house, dress in women's clothes... and today you thought, hmm... yeah... today would be a good day to play dress up? But it does not mean anything about me and my gender.

I take the definition of transgender to include anyone who "crosses or transcends culturally defined categories of gender." So yeah, if all you ever do is occasionally put on some lipstick, you are transgender, if you only ever put on a pair of women's underwear and pleasure yourself, you are transgender, if you are a cross dresser, you are transgender, if you transition you are transgender, etc.

You all can debate whether or not you want to be labeled or defined or categorized til the world ends, but that is an integral part of language and culture. Things are defined, and that is kind of how the word transgender is defined. So um... yeah... sorry to break it to you... but... yeah you are transgender.

[Rhonda Darling]

I agree. If such a simple definitional concept isn't embraced by those to whom it applies, it's like a decree striking the letter "M" from the language -- utter nonsense.

[Lisa760]

I agree I think we all fall in the category of transgender.

[kimdl93]

Two possibilities. One- The individual may be referring to Transexual rather than Transgender. May not know the difference or maybe careless in word choices.

Two - some CDrs don't like being included among the transgendered, and will come up with a variety of exceptions. I don't agree with those exceptions, but its not worth arguing about it.

[Krisi]

That only works if you decide that WPATH has the right to define the word. I think common usage would be a bit different.

[Jackie7]

@Nadine, as Kim notes People do confuse transsexual with transgender. If "trans" means transgender, then sure, all of the crossdressing men in this site are trans. But If it means "transsexual," then only some of us are. I am transgender but not transsexual, and if I were to write that I am "not trans", I would be meaning that I don 't contemplate having sexual reassignment surgery nor casting aside my male aspect to live full-time as a woman.

[Leahann]

I agree with Jackie7

[Keri L]

I don't think people should say I am/am not "trans," because that's not a word; it's a prefix. If I said I am "anti," would that make sense, or would I need to clarify, eg antiestablishment, antisocial, etc. Seems like it is just a vague slang term that just causes confusion.

[Marcelle]

Hi Nadine,

Exactly why I don't like labels as a way to neatly define who people are. As Jackie noted I do find a lot of confusion even among members who confuse Transgender (the umbrella term) with Transsexual and hence they say I am not "Transgender / Trans". Personally I don't like the term "Cross Dresser" but that is me so I prefer to refer to myself as Transgender . . . at least until I get "Jeopardy Screen Saver Mode Stares" from people then I iterate "What you know as a cross dresser" then the lights come on.

I think we are all allowed to determine who we are and how we want to define ourselves. If some prefer not to be lumped under the Transgender umbrella, it might their way of coping with a very confusing moment in their life. Heck when Isha first came crashing into my life and I was early in counselling I denied emphatically I was "transgender" as it seemed so definitive and I preferred to refer to it as "that thing I do". Some may never accept the moniker of Transgender as it may be a bridge too far for them. Just my two cents.

Hugs

Isha

[natcrys]

Apart from the GG's and GM's on this site.. all of us are transgender.. not all of us are transsexual.. that's how I see it.

[LilSissyStevie]

It's an identity and you can't force an identity on somebody. Just because a bunch of "experts" come up with a definition doesn't mean one has to accept it for themselves. (Besides, this country is run by experts - 'nuff said.) There are people born with penises and XY chromosomes that don't identify as male despite the fact that that's how experts define maleness. Why can't they just accept the edicts handed down from above?

[Michelle Deere]

I recently did a fare bit of reading about the meaning and usage of the word transgender and its shorter form trans for my blog. I found that there is a move afoot to use an asterisk * to regain the inclusive definition of transgender. The term "trans" seems to, through no fault of it's own, have become synonymous with transsexual, where as "trans*" would be the sort form of transgender. I now use the asterisk when ever I write trans*.

[Kate Simmons]

Dang and just when I thought I had it all figured out too. Dad burn it.

[Jenniferathome]

...The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth."

...

Nadine, this is the part of the definition that does not apply to me. I would vehemently argue that I am not "trans" as I identify as male and I have never questioned my sexual identity. I'm a cross dresser and that is weird, for sure. It also crosses normal gender boundaries without question. I also agree that from the outside world, I MUST BE trans of some sort but I don't think of myself that way. I'm just a normal cross dresser;-)

[Katey888]

Nadine - I agree with your interpretation of the WPATH definition as it fits us... It is a very broad umbrella, I agree, but some definitions are like that, and it's barely different to being categorised in other ways.

Nadine, this is the part of the definition that does not apply to me. I would vehemently argue that I am not "trans" as I identify as male and I have never questioned my sexual identity.

Jennifer - Aren't you confusing and mixing gender identity with sexual identity? Your sexual identity is physically fixed, as for most of us - but your gender identity is not just (or even) your physical form; it is what goes on in your persona and is about who you are.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you struggled with an internal conflict regarding your dressing for many years until you just had to come out your SO and you also had a real need to take your feminine side out into public... if that isn't a sign of even mild gender dysphoria, then I don't know how else you'd explain it?

I don't think there's anything wrong with that - most of us have that need or desire to a greater or lesser extent, the only exclusions from the trans* category would be the purely fetish-dressers, who are possibly just as difficult to categorise.

I honestly don't think there's really a benefit in the category unless you got to a point of requiring some form of legislation, but I think that would be quite tricky to get acceptable definitions for.

Katey x

[suchacutie]

Jennifer has a point. There were two parts of the "definition" initially presented. If we focus on the latter part for a moment:

The gender identity of transgender people differs to varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth

then the whole notion of being able to categorize someone as transgendered, from an outside perspective, becomes difficult. Looking at Jennifer's avatar, someone from the outside looking in would certainly see someone who appears to be transgendered (Jennifer, that's your fault for looking so wonderful en femme!). However, she says that her gender identity is male, so her internal view of (notice the feminine pronoun) is male!

So, I look at this as a two-prism situation. Those looking on from the outside see what we present, and when we present our feminine selves, we look to be transgendered. Our own opinions of ourselves might be quite different!

[Sallee]

I would say if we cross dress in private for a bit or full time all the time we are transgendered to one degree or another. It is a level of being trans some are more trans than others. We are all different in all the things we do.

[Isabella Ross]

My take is simple: I dress in women's clothing, therefore I am transgendered. And I'm proud to be transgendered...it's a badge of honour and a great source of pleasure in my life, not something I am ashamed of or a label I try to avoid....

[Melanie B]

...the only exclusions from the trans* category would be the purely fetish-dressers...

Exactly what I was thinking, but you said it first!
I suspect there are quite a few non-TG men for whom looking at / touching/wearing female underwear or shoes is a means of achieving arousal (as a male). Their CDing is sexual thing rather than a gender issue.

[Renee Elise]

Interesting thread. Physically, I am a man, and to the outside world (for now ) I present as a typical man. I've come to realize that there are aspects to my personality that are considered to be feminine. Sometimes I enjoy expressing that femininity by dressing up...and when I do I feel very different. An enjoyable experience, special. I have no desire at all to give up my masculinity or transform physically on a permanent basis. When I feel feminine though it is quite amazing to be able to look like I feel inside, especially after suppressing it for so long. I agree that places me on the transgender spectrum / circle...

[Jenniferathome]

...Jennifer - Aren't you confusing and mixing gender identity with sexual identity? Your sexual identity is physically fixed, as for most of us - but your gender identity is not just (or even) your physical form; it is what goes on in your persona and is about who you are.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you struggled with an internal conflict regarding your dressing for many years until you just had to come out your SO and you also had a real need to take your feminine side out into public... if that isn't a sign of even mild gender dysphoria, then I don't know how else you'd explain it?

...

Hi Katey, I identify male in every way. Gender, sexuality, whatever, there is only one, me. A male me, both between my legs and between my ears. I am beginning to think I may be unique.

Now, regarding the conflict prior to telling my wife, none of it was gender related. It was deceit, shame, embarrassment, etc., related associated with having to admit I was a cross dresser. That even though I was a dude, through and through, she would see me as less of a man. I'm happy to state that has not been the outcome. Going out in girl mode, as I have written many times, is like a public admission of this long held secret. Screaming from the mountaintop, metaphorically, without saying a word. After decades of hiding, the need to not hide was paramount. Cross dressing is not a symptom to me. One may be dysphoric AND cross dress and others are not but also cross dress. It's not cause and effect. Just like there are gay cross dressers but cross dressing does not make you gay. Again, I am feeling unique.

[ReineD]

The word "gender" can bring to mind several different things: gender identity, gender boundaries, gender roles, gendered activities, gender presentation, etc.

I think that a lot of crossdressers feel they are solidly male and they focus on the identity meaning of the word, and so anything that hints they may have an alternate gender identity is not acceptable to them.

If the word was "Trans-gender-boundaries" or "Cross-gender-presentation", for example, it might be more palatable since it would more accurately describe someone who transcends presentation or boundaries on occasion by wearing the clothing of the opposite sex, without saying that their innate male gender identity is impacted. But even then, some members here make no attempt at crossing the gender lines with presentation and looking female. They just like the clothes and they go out or appear as males who wear clothes that are traditionally worn by females.

[Katey888]

Hi Katey, I identify male in every way. Gender, sexuality, whatever, there is only one, me. A male me, both between my legs and between my ears. I am beginning to think I may be unique.

Jennifer - thanks for replying... I think we're all unique of course.. and while you may not be the only one to experience what you feel, it does appear to be quite unusual, or at least, few others are actually talking about it.

One question still bugs me though - if you identify as totally male, how do you explain that this identity is not subverted when you exhibit publicly as a female? As others have noted, and you yourself admit, you put a great deal of effort into looking as feminine as possible and yet you maintain that the reason you choose to express as a female is nothing to do with gender, but you must also admit that being a 'dude in a dress' as a choice of pastime is choosing a hugely stigmatised and potentially damaging way of simply... doing fancy dress...? If you specifically had no gender need to reflect feminine, wouldn't you just go out wearing a cowboy outfit or biker gear...? Even something that might be non-conformant but reinforced your 100% male identity...?

It just seems really unusual...

Katey x

[CONSUELO]

I see these sorts of discussions appearing on this site a lot. Sometimes passions are aroused as members assert that such and such a definition does not apply to them at all. Or, they dislike being categorized as it seems artificial and somehow does not describe them properly.
i wonder if some of our difficulty comes from perspective. These terms and definitions come from psychologists and others who are trying to create a useful terminology that they can use within their profession and in communicating to other related professions. So they are looking at many subjects from the "outside", whereas we are looking at one subject, but from the "inside".
A long time ago, a transvestite friend of mine told me that I was a transvestite. I strongly disagreed as I firmly believed that I just had a fetish and nothing more. He was right and his assessment was more objective than my subjective view of myself.

[Allison Chaynes]

I agree, it's a spectrum. But popular use of "trans" has come to mean transexual as most people understand it.