First time to a support group - Disappointing

[annecwesley]

Anne,
My reply was not meant to be offensive only trying to make the point that others have encountered problems when dressed with a beard !It's a confusing message, the public struggle with CDers but presenting with a beard is just too confusing !

If you can pass what do you care about a guy with a beard in a dress? What confusion if you are passing? If you can really pass then you can join in the derisive dismissal of crossdressers who just like to wear woman's clothing.

MM had a problem and made the point that's how he wanted to be accepted , take it or leave it ! If you have to go out and defend yourself like that is it worth it ?

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

Some Cders do take exception when they have spent so much time and money to pass and someone comes along in a dress with a beard , they will ask are you taking the mickey!! I don't agree with that but surely you can see the point !

Yes. Some crossdressers simply must accept the intolerance of the "the community" - for the better good.

[Mink]

these groups or communities are going against the norm... counter culture if you will

but they too are hippo crits and un-nice to those that don't conform

thus we have the people that must COUNTER the counter culture!


the outsiders among the outsiders!

eyah

[Ressie]

Well, you did ask if the beard would be OK right? If you ever go to another meeting don't say anything about the beard. Don't ask if it's alright, just show up as yourself and sit back and watch what kind of reactions you get. Think of it as a social experiment. Let the beard be offensive to thost that find it offensive and don't let others' reactions make you feel inadequate.

[Tina B.]

Our Group, “The Grand Illusions” should not be thrown in the laundry nor should the other groups. We have a monthly get together we call our OUTing. This is for those who are “passable” for a reason. If you are going OUT Enfemme then you should attempt to be the best presentation that nature and finances allow. Now I am no beauty queen and most of my wardrobe comes from GWs, but that does not preclude me from being “passable”. I just have to present appropriately and do a decent job. Some of the other girls in our Group were blessed by genes with more easily brought out feminine features so they can get ready faster and look more realistic when they are finished. Some are pretty, some are not. But all are believable to some extent, not obviously a guy in a dress. Your words Billie, not mine. You see, youi do not have tolerance for a guy in a dress, and as far as safety, I thought though that was found in numbers.

Tina B.
You make a statement that we do not want to be seen in public with whatever. And you accuse me of being the arbitrator. Both with no data to back it up. You are SO wrong!

We do not have to decide who can “pass”, the individuals decide for themselves if they pass. All but one anyway. They know their comfort level and abilities to pass, or they underestimate their ability to pass. So the opposite of your accusation is true.

....

[Katey888]

... Clearly some spirited opinion as to what the nature of support groups should be - however...

Please keep to the subject OP if you can - of course you are entitled to express an opinion as to other, subsequent posts and comments where relevant, but please keep it non-personal.. and no gouging, biting, hair-pulling, etc...

Or else...

Thanks peeps...

Katey
Moderator

[BillieAnneJean]

Anne,
All groups are not created the same. As in this forum, we should all be kind, accepting, understanding, and supportive. Unfortunately as CDers we all end up with scars that we do not deserve.
To not accept anyone enfemme at any IN meeting is inexcusable provided that the group has not made a guideline readily available of what they expect.
To not accept anyone enfemme at any OUT meeting is also inexcusable provided that group has not made a guideline readily available of what they expect.
The Group I belong to has guidelines readily available and on our website.
It is like this: Imagine you have a friend who likes to yell, it is his statement, you are going to a meeting of mimes. You advise him that his yelling will not be appropriate there.
Or imagine that you are going to a football game and your friend wants to join you. You have no reservations because that is the purpose of the fans going to the game, to cheer and yell. Your friend will not feel rejected by your help. But if he went to the meeting of the mimes and started yelling, making his statement, at an event obviously geared to quiet communication, he would really feel uncomfortable there. Unless he was clueless.
So too it is with the IN meeting which one would assume is for anyone in any level of dressing. And the OUTing is for anyone who can go unnoticed, commonly referred to as "passing".
As for administrating this IN/OUTing/passing thing, it should be done with compassion and encouragement not anything like making someone feel rejected.
You would never feel this way at The Group I belong to.
Billie

[ReineD]

Most CDers struggle with societal acceptance. People in general look askance at men who wear dresses, and I believe that if a man also has a beard it serves to accentuate the difference between his sex and the clothes that he chooses to wear if the clothes are obviously feminine. I'm not talking about gender neutral clothing purchased in women's departments. So most CDers try to hide or mask as many male gender cues as they can (including a beard) for two reasons: one, to reduce the visual conflict of being an obvious male in women's clothes in other people's eyes and two, hopefully to gain more acceptance by doing so.

This is why, I believe, many CDers feel queasy with the idea of a man in a beard who goes out in public wearing women's clothing. They are projecting their own need for acceptance and their own desire to conform to societal expectations of how men and women should present, because they want to reduce the visual conflict for other people as much as possible.

I don't want to be hurtful by reminding everyone of this, but it wasn't too many generations ago that "the bearded lady" was an attraction in the carnival show. The idea that women have beards or that people who look like men should present as a woman was a sensation. I know that we've moved beyond that in our modern society. I think that most people are aware there are crossdressers and transsexuals, although many people still don't know the difference between the two, but when faced with mixed gender cues people still react with deeply-rooted gut instincts as they perceive that something doesn't mesh. Most of us are raised among people who are either men or women and not a mixture of both, and so it's a question of feeling comfortable with what is deeply familiar.

That said, I don't see why you should NOT be fully accepted in a private TG meeting group. As far as I can tell, you were not out in public? Also, when you did go out in public you took care to conceal the women's clothes you were wearing and you presented as a man. The long kilt you wore might have been a little on the edge for men's clothes, but men do wear kilts so I'm guessing that your appearance would not have screamed traditional "crossdresser".

I think it's a good idea to start a club for men who do not want to hide their male gender cues and who want to wear women's clothes. I don't think this forms the bulk of the CDing community, but you might find a few in your area. But the other potential members may be like you in that they might be reluctant to go out in public wearing dresses. I think that most crossdressers sense that doing this garners a lot of attention for the reasons mentioned above.





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This is tangential to the discussion:

Sorry for the long post, but things are different for younger people. We have a young CDer (or genderqeer person) in our area who goes out with wild purple extensions in his very long black hair, who wears makeup, high heels, and women's clothing that are decidedly feminine but rocker-chick type. People in our area just accept him. My SO, who is in her 50s asked me once why I though this young CDer could get away with wearing makeup and heels. I responded that people in general are much quicker to forgive young people for going outside the norms. Hippies did it in the 60s, punk-rockers and goths did it in following generations, and most people I think just put it down to youthful exploration that will eventually subside when these young people finds jobs in areas where they will need to conform. A fifty year-old man (with a corresponding body) would not be able to get away with it, just as a 65 year old woman cannot get away with wearing the clubbing clothes that her grand-daughter wears.

[Beverley Sims]

Anne,
I accept that you are someone that want's to go half way and there are a lot of others in that situation.
A group for people like you would work well as there are a lot of dressers who prefer the full feminine look and never the twain shall meet.
I do feel that way myself but I have an open mind on these things and for whatever reason there needs to be a facility for others such as yourself.
Find another support group that caters for someone like yourself, it can be like AA there is an eclectic mix of people all at different stages of their lives trying to form a straight line and be the same.

It does not work.

[sherri]

Long ago, fairly early in my own cding experience, I spent a weekend at the Habana in OKC and it was a weekend of several firsts for me -- first real road trip en femme, first gurl weekend, first gay hotel, etc. I ran into a group of local gurls out for the evening at the club, and for some reason they were all wearing formal gowns, fancy hairdos, etc. I was dressed clubby and was still nervous as a cat on a tin roof those days. Most of the gurls were not overly friendly -- in fact, the only one that really was sported a full beard, referred to herself as the bearded lady of OKC. I appreciated her taking the time to talk and stuff, and I liked her, but I have to admit, the beard + that getup was just, I dunno, surreal. Weird, actually, and it was hard not to stare.

I didn't get it, still don't, but it never occurred to me judge her -- hell, she was probably a lot more experienced than I was and definitely had nicer clothes than I did -- and it didn't make me at all uncomfortable sitting with her talking there in the club. If we lived nearer I would have no problem with being friends and stuff, but I have to admit, there are some places I would not go with her, even now. No way I would walk into a mainstream store or restaurant with her. It's just too much of a jolt, too eccentric and draws too much attention. And even within the more tolerant gay community, it takes so much time, effort and patience to make friends and train people to perceive and accept you as a femme person, the beard thing would sort of be shouting out the "dudes in dresses" message and wear on me over the long haul, I think. As a member of a group, whether at a support group meeting or clubbing, yeah, I can handle that, but as two gurls out on the town, not optimum for me. No offense intended.

[BillieAnneJean]

Anne,
I do not know if the group you attended has any publicly available guidelines for what they consider acceptable. So I just thought I would post how the group I attend handles appearance for our IN meetings and for our OUTings. These are part of our FAQs on our website so we are not keeping any secrets. If you can find something like this for that other group, you can compare. If they do not have anything then maybe you could help them by sending a note about how you felt rejected along with these FAQs from our group, provided you feel that these FAQs have any merit. From our FAQs:

"What is the difference between an IN meeting and an OUTing?

The IN meetings are mostly a gab session. Discussion tends to place greater importance on putting together an outfit from resale than who spent the most. There is no pecking order based on appearance or wardrobe. All are equal and all are welcome. More experienced girls freely share tips for anyone requesting. Occasionally someone will be experiencing family or life pressures and in need of compassion, a good listener, or just a hug. We are there to support each other. We usually order takeout. Almost always pizza. Now and then we do a makeover and mini photoshoot for any member desiring it. It is about acceptance, friendship, support, privacy, freedom, and self expression. It is NOT a beauty contest. This event is for CDers who have never been OUT enfemme, those who will not go OUT enfemme, newbies. The IN meeting is a relaxed setting where you can be yourself and not worry about how good you look or if anyone is going to notice facial hair. The only requirement for CDers is that they must present as female. That means they must wear women's clothing, feminine shoes, feminine hair. Forms and some kind of makeup like lipstick also are nice but not absolutely necessary. You need to put at least a little effort in to it so we are all on the same page - more or less. This is for CDers only, no SOs please. You can not experience this at your computer. Join us!

"Do I have to be pretty, as pretty as XYZ girl, or beautiful to go on an OUTing?
No you do not have to be a supermodel to go on an OUTing. If you look at the population of typical women, they range from beautiful to definitely not blessed. The same applies to CDers. Actually having a diverse group of CDers OUT together helps us to project the image of a group of regular gals. You should be passable to some extent but again, this is not a beauty contest. That means no obvious exposed body hair and no facial hair. You should have long hair, a feminine short do, or a wig, makeup as appropriate, appropriate women’s clothing, appropriate shoes, bling, a purse. You should make some effort to walk in a feminine manner, posture should be feminine, and so should your gait. You should have a feminine voice or use a whisper. All of these can be honed to a fantastic level of realism, or a newbie’s level. But you can not just throw on a dress and show up, without standing out like a guy in a dress. We suggest that if you are in doubt, attend an IN meeting first for guidance and help. We have been having a LOT of fun at out OUTings, and our IN meetings. You can not experience this at your computer. Join us!"

We have had good experiences with this model. We have been providing a safe haven for nearly two years now. Since the beginning, the only complaint from anyone attending the meetings is from one person with a beard that wants to be included in the OUTings. That is an invitation for interaction with anyone looking for a fight. That individual has had some issues when OUT "enfemme" before while alone. Why should those incidents be forced on a group of CDers of which all are trying to go ignored?

The group you attended missed an opportunity when you felt unwelcome at their gathering. We should all be kind, considerate, compassionate, welcoming, helpful, understanding, nurturing, and tolerant of each other in this CDing community. Sadly that is not the case in the group you met or even here on this forum.

[CD Tammy]

Think about this, the person who made the comment could have been joking. These were people you just met. You were in a bit higher state of nervousness than usual being out of your element. I'm often known to make a flippant remark, like when someone asks if they can ask a question, I might say, the answer is 42 before they even ask.

I went to a crossdresser support group, once. It was a good group of people but they were far more comfortable going out in public than I was.

[Kari_B]

I look at this forum as my support group. I may not post a lot here but it has helped me to find out where I am.

There are many different opinions here too, you just have to figure yourself out and if talking to someone about it helps that's great. There is a lot of good advice here. There are differences of opinion. Nobody here can see how I look nor I you. I can accept that you want to do things your way, Own it.

[MonctonGirl]

Yes ..it would be a good idea to have more specific terms ..or typical group member descriptions...so we all know what to expect
and maybe so that the general public could understand each of us better.

But then again the general public just calls us other names ... usually starting with "f" or "g" so I guess it's easy for them.

[Tracii G]

Don't judge all groups by the action of one member of a certain group.

[Gillian Gigs]

Welcome to life with human beings! Most purists look down their noses at those who are not, doesn't matter the club, group, religion, or whatever. It must be hell, for them having to live up to their own standards. Yet most of them pick and choose which standards to follow and expect you to live the standards they choose. Like I said, welcome to life with human beings!

[Mink]

Don't judge all groups by the action of one member of a certain group.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link!

[Ressie]

I went to an open house at a support group. It was the first time I went to any sort of gathering with other crossdressers. I sent a note ahead of time and mentioned that I have a beard. "You would be unusual, but I think everyone would be accepting". When I got to the meeting there was one person "femulating" (in jeans) and and two folks in drab. When the one who was dressed said there was a changing room if I wanted to change (I brought a bag with my clothes and breastforms) I asked, out of courtesy, if the beard would bother anyone. One of the drab "gurls" said (rather gruffly) "Only this one time". Well that sounded like my wife when I want do dress when the kids are gone for the day. I could not have possibly been comfortable dressed up at that point, I did not come there to be "elephant in the room". So I sat and chatted with the three of them for a little while (out of courtesy) and went back to my motel room, where I could be comfortable (and alone) dressed up.

I feel like starting a club for "Crossdressers" - guys who like to wear woman's clothing (including the ones who can't or don't want to try to pass).

I did enjoy a drive though and some shopping skirted (a long kilt to conceal the hosiery and lingerie I was wearing underneath ) - as a guy.

As I read this again it appears that you took this worse than it really was. You were invited to change by one person who saw you had a beard, but 'she' still invited you to use the changing room. What the 2nd person said wasn't really that terrible was it? The comment reminded you of someting your wife would say and you couldn't be comfortable at that point. Nobody told you that you couldn't be there, you weren't turned away. You just felt uncomfortable, so this seems to have more to do with your feelings the way I see it. Of course, I wasn't there and I only heard your side of the story.

[Seana Summer]

Hi Anne, If you lived closer to me I would be the first to join your new support group!

I have observed that most "support groups turn into clubs rather quickly. I have never understood why there seems to be so much emphasis on passing when it is very rare that any of us pass in both modes. The only plausible explanation I have come up with is that it is our competitive male selves showing through

I understand that if your going out into the big old world you must not draw unwanted attention to yourself whether you are CD, GG, or an American walking down the street in Islamabad. After all how many times do you see a GG wearing an evening gown and 5 inch heels while out taking the dog for a walk.

It seems many of us have very different and wide ranging goals. Not everyone wants to be a women 24/7, and passing is not possible for everyone, beard or not. Too bad we cant all get along and be supportive or at least tolerant of each other, even with the "Pipefitters in a dress". Seems like that would be the first step to greater public acceptance of us all