So...if it's an emotional NEED to cross-dress...

[Mia Brankovic]

So...if it's an emotional NEED to cross-dress; then Cross-dressing is not a “fetish” (by definition...see below).

Fetish: (noun)
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency. (Uhm, Nope. Mia)
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion:
to make a fetish of high grades. (hmm, maybe... Mia)
3. Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation. (Uhm, Nope. Mia)
Source: dictionary.com

From above: “2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion:
to make a fetish of high grades.” I have no problem with: reverence, respect, or devotion...in fact, these are traits to be nurtured? Oh...the 'unquestioning' part...have you read our threads??? lol Oh Yea...we are an 'unquestioning lot' aren't we?

In fact, in my case anyway...sexual stimulation doesn't count in my “Top 5~” reasons for Mia's transition. Could we please explore the emotional side of Cross-dressing? The 'Evolution of the More Feminine Traits”...only because, I'm starting to really loosen the reigns upon my emotions, lately.

Take care & be well,
Mia

[Tina B.]

It's hard to discuss the emotional side of cross dressing. I get down, I dress, I get up, I have no idea why this happens, it just does.
It's easy to talk about the clothes, the hardships of finding the time, or talking about DADT relationships, these things are all external, but talking about the internal is really hard, because it gets very close to home, and has been kept suppressed for a life time.
But for me, at my age sexual thrill of it left years ago, it's more about the inter peace I find when dressed, no matter what is going on, I feel better in a dress.
I don't think I'm a women in a man's body, and I have no doubt when looking in a mirror, it's a mans body. (no not the dangly down bits) I'm talking about the need for all of that padding to fill out the clothes! But back to my point, while I can't say why, I can say even just hanging around the house, I feel better if I'm dressed, than I do in drab. And if not fully dressed, at least partly dressed will do as good Even just underdressed is better, and if all else is not available to me at the time, at least a little nail polish on my toes helps me feel complete. It doesn't take much some days to bring out the inter girl in me.
It use to be manly about the clothes, but it's less about the clothes, and more about the inner feelings, and it gets easier and easier for me to find my inter women.
Not sure this is what you had in mind, but you asked!

[NicoleScott]

There is no single "it" (what drives the desire to crossdress). Many definitions include, in addition to the clothing part, for sexual or emotional reasons. Sexual, that seems pretty clear, but emotional is quite broad. One crossdresser's emotional need may be different than another's. I think you have to examine your own emotional need to crossdress, since you have eliminated (or largely dismissed) sex.

[Mia Brankovic]

Hi Tina...thank you so very much for sharing that! and that is exactly what I'd like to discuss...the 'really hard internal' emotions; because (in your 2nd paragraph) you basically dismissed (or condensed) all the other stuff down to: a lil' nail polish is enough to satisfy the Inner Goddess!

[talonX]

I'm currently coming out of a stretch of not desiring to dress, but what I remember is the more I embraced it, the less fetishistic or erotic much of it became, and more it just started to feel like a natural part of me and my life, which was great. I'm not in a position right now where I can dress at all (got into a relationship duringthe latency period) and I'll take the regular, normal feeling of it all over the almost insatiable compulsion I feel right now.

I will say too, that my dressing does take a fetishistic turn too - thigh boots, leather, etc - but that also transformed into helping me feel empowered.

I haven't thought about all this for a long time...thinking about all this feel like opening up a long closed up, dusty room to the outdoors and fresh air...

[Rachelakld]

As a male, I get low periods of emotional instability, argumentive and as the kids say grumpy.

The psychics tell me I have a split personality, which creates inner-turmoil.
Personally, I think as a male many years ago, I unlocked the female and allowed her to express herself, and now she likes to have her time in the light (I think she causes the grumpiness if locked away for a period of time)

Switching modes, I'm at peace, relaxed, open to considering others more (wife & kids all agree on this point).

[Kandi Robbins]

I honestly don't think there is anything else like it in life in terms of why. I have a theory, tell me what you think. Most of us have started very young. At that time in our development, many things we learn or experience get hard wired into our minds. When we experience the same thing as adults, we process our experiences much differently, and at that time things become choices, not urges driving us to find answers why.

While I am beginning to embrace my feminine side, it took a damn long time to do so. Much self loathing and waste. My first experience was at the age of 5 and I believe crossdressing immediately became hard wired in me. I had no choice after that. Make any sense? I'll be watching and learning.

[CynthiaD]

For me:

Yes, it's necessary to dress. No, it is not a fetish, it has nothing to do with the sex act. No, it's not a hobby. I've had lots of hobbies and this is something completely different.

[Mia Brankovic]

WOW...thank you for your candidness!

k, first...thigh high leather boots are in no WAY a fetish...they are simply a sign that you are an excellent shoe shopper with great style! Yes, I am!

Since my daughter is aware of my exploits...my daughter has agreed to monitor my psyche for schisms...so...my daughter, and you folks...will be acting as my 'reality anchor'...YES...Rachel...I am somewhat concerned 'bout the whole split personality issue. Mia's persona is starting to interact with others out there...uhm, Flirtin's becoming a way of life...I don't even have to say anything...I think it's in my eyes...pure happiness is a great aphrodisiac, no? Maybe it's my self-confidence...I can't wait to venture out...and I would like to find somebody from this site to do that with...WOW, I digress (Oops!)
"Opening a pre-opened door"...exactly...I feel as though I'm specifically searching for something? Something that I have known in the past...

"process our experiences much differently" Kandi...who is new to our community!! Welcome Kandi, and thank you for weighing in...major issue for a 'newbie', no? WOW! Getting back to that most wonderful observation; "process our experiences much differently"...Why, Kandi...I was just discussing something very similar in a different thread...it may have been the shoe one? Anyway...I was discussing the difference between how Males may view their environment in one perspective, and Females would view the exact same environment in a totally different perspective (mind-set)...Also, would this be an instinctual response carried down from our origins? (if that's the case, then...)

I would like to stay away from the scientific/medical models (it'll come down to hormone and neurological chemical release...just wait)...and let the emotions have their say...

[kneehighs]

My view on the emotional need is that before we form concepts, before we think in words, and before we begin to think in logical abstractions, we go through an infantile phase in which the universe of our mind consists of sensation and imagery. Our mothers are often the first relationship we enjoy and since we can't articulate our relationship in words, we articulate that infantile relationship with symbols of our mothers presence. Those visual symbols represent our feelings.

If the mother for some reason abandons or rejects us at this infantile age (0-2 years), it creates anxiety in us. An infant will panic wondering where mommy went. How can he get mommy back? Scream? Cry? Since as infants we don't have the emotional or cognitive resources to cure this separation, we create in our minds symbols of mommy's unbroken presence in our lives. Often, this symbol takes the form of women's clothing. Since the symbol of mommy's comforting presence is her pretty appearance, we re-create that pretty appearance as adults since it alleviates our anxieties we endured as infants.

[Paula_Femme]

...the more I embraced it, the less fetishistic or erotic much of it became, and more it just started to feel like a natural part of me and my life...

I can agree with TalonX above in as much as my 'dressing originally started as a sexual/fetishistic thrill, but as the years went on, the sexual element became less pronounced and I began to be aware of deeper, more profound emotional feelings when I was dressed, which is how I feel about it today, it fulfills an emotional need.

[Mia Brankovic]

WOW, Kneehighs...that makes sense...

so, on the lighter side: not only can I blame my mother for passing-on the male pattern baldness trait...I can use the same argument for my cross-dressing, due to abandonment issues? I'm good with that

Paula: The softer emotional side superseded the sexual connection? Would you say that the sexual/emotional perspective gradually transitions?

[Paula_Femme]

...Would you say that the sexual/emotional perspective gradually transitions?

Hi Mia

Not in everyone by a long shot, for some, even in my age group, mid 50's, it's still primarily a sexual turn-on, but for many, and I have no ideal of the numbers or %'s, the sexual aspect diminishes over time and the emotional response, feelings of calm, happiness, of it being "right," come to the fore. It's difficult to quantify, but for me it's something like a 25/75 split between the sexual and emotional responses.

All the best
Paula

[melanie206]

I'm no expert but not all fetishes are directly about sex. Some seek to be dominant or submissive, it seems, to experience those feelings without things leading to sex. Therefore, when crossdressing gets discounted by some as a fetish in an attempt to simplify their understanding of it they fail to adequately consider either concept.

[ReineD]

Here is an article to consider if only for background: Behavioral Addictions: Do They Exist?

It's a question, not a conclusion. It would also be good to get past the negative implication of the word, "addiction".

They mostly examine the severe end of well-known addictions/compulsions: drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, shopping, sex. But if people who read this can get past that, they introduce the concept of neuroadaptation, which is changes in neural circuitry that help perpetuate a behavior that has produced positive rewards. They suggest that the more some people do something that is pleasurable, the more they will want to do it even if it has growing negative consequences. Common negative consequences among Cders are increased unhappiness in marriages, a lessening of focus on jobs, a lessening of interest in other activities and loss of friends, to name a few. Of course, not everyone is on the same scale with the same degree of consequences and many CDers do adapt successfully to the CDing. My SO is one.

Back to the article, they've looked at the brain's reward circuitry and have found that blood flow in dopamine-rich areas indicate that the same neural circuitry is involved in the highs and lows of winning money, abusing drugs, or anticipating a gastronomical treat. Other research is showing there are many other types of rewards, including exercise, chocolate, music, and beauty (I'm wondering if for some CDers it might be feminine beauty) that affect the same reward circuits. Some of you mentioned sex, and it is important to consider that other things than sex bring pleasure to the brain.

I know that a popular thought here is that (some? many? most?) who dress must be at least partly female or feminine and it's all a part of a person's core identity that was established genetically or in utero. I know that it can be downright insulting to suggest a possibility that CDers have rewired themselves because they've engaged in behaviors that make them feel good, since words like "fetish", "addiction" and "compulsion" have had and do still have negative implications.

But I question whether biologically, CDers are fundamentally different from non-CDers, especially the CDers who are hetero. True, there are intersex people and transsexuals and I'm sure other ways to vary biologically. I would like to see more research in the area of neuroadaptation as it concerns individuals who engage in cross-gender expression.

My own position? I just don't know. Even neuroadaptivity must have a scale and may be combined with other factors. Frankly, I don't know if we'll find out in our lifetimes. Money is not flowing for research in this area since it involves a small percentage of the population, most of which is closeted.

[PaulaQ]

Here is an article to consider if only for background: Behavioral Addictions: Do They Exist?

My goodness - that article is 13 years old. It references the DSM: IV. There have been improvements to the understanding of gender identity as an "addition or compulsive behavior" since then. (Hint - it isn't a compulsive behavior, fetish, or disorder anymore.)

I know that a popular thought here is that (some? many? most?) who dress must be at least partly female or feminine and it's all a part of a person's core identity that was established genetically or in utero. I know that it can be downright insulting to suggest a possibility that CDers have rewired themselves because they've engaged in behaviors that make them feel good, since words like "fetish", "addiction" and "compulsion" have had and do still have negative implications.

Yes, it is downright insulting you are correct about that. Those are pretty much fighting words, to some of us.

But I question whether biologically, CDers are fundamentally different from non-CDers, especially the CDers who are hetero. True, there are intersex people and transsexuals and I'm sure other ways to vary biologically. I would like to see more research in the area of neuroadaptation as it concerns individuals who engage in cross-gender expression.

What does sexual orientation have to do with this?

In essence, what you've stated is Ray Blanchard's theory of autogynephilia. This idea is not well regarded scientifically, for a number of reasons. It ignores the existence of FtM transsexuals, and it's description of the origins of androphilic (attracted to men) transsexuals - that they are gay men who can't face being gay, and therefore revert to becoming women rather than facing their own sexual orientation - is pretty obviously idiotic in this day and age. Example: Given a choice, I would much rather have been a gay man than a trans woman. I would be a lot less likely to need expensive, and largely uninsured medical treatment, for one thing. There are an enormous number of out gay men now. The social stigma associated with being gay is, in general, lower in Western society than is the stigma of being trans. (There are societies where the opposite is true, but they are exceptions.) I know lots of gay men. They are great. Their lives aren't perfect by any means, and they face real prejudice and hardship still, but my general impression is that it's a whole bunch easier to be gay than to be trans.

As for the common heterosexual MtF CD - I know it is an extremely appealing idea for some of the spouses, partners, and significant others of these individuals to hope that CDing is simply a behavioral issue, and thus presumably susceptible, at least to some degree, to behavioral techniques to prevent them from going "all out transsexual." So if you are accepting, and can find a balance where your SO can do some CDing without shame or repercussion, and still have your own needs in the relationship met, this will keep the relationship alive, and prevent them from transitioning.

Good luck with that. You'll need it.

My own experience was that my gender identity was, after a time, overwhelming and impossible to deny. I thought I understood the concept of being "powerless" over my addiction to alcohol. (I've been sober for 25 years now.) Dealing with my gender identity made me understand that it made my battle with alcohol seem small, trivial, and relatively easy to handle. Alcoholism wasn't any of those things for me in reality, and it nearly ended my life 25 years ago. Only by comparison to something as overwhelming as the gender dysphoria I suffered from, did it seem small.

We are powerless over our gender identity. In my case, I reached a breaking point - "transition, or die." Many of us do, some do not, but need to transition anyway. Regardless, I believe this is beyond your control as an SO, beyond the CDers control, beyond the control of psychology, psychiatry, or modern medicine. We are powerless over this.

If this is your SO's identity, once their GD reaches a critical mass, you won't stop this without destroying them, and prior to reaching that point, there can be a very long period where they are a genuinely miserable person. It was bad enough for me that if given a choice between death, or living as a man again, I'd choose death. Without hesitation, doubt, or fear. It's not that I seek death - far from it. I just know what life as a man was like, and if forced to do it again, death would be a mercy.

[LilSissyStevie]

It seems to me that the link between so-called identity or social CDs and sexually driven CDs is emasculation. It doesn't surprise me in the least that it would start out as sexual emasculation and then spread to other areas. But it could start the other way or just be one or the other. There is no doubt in my mind that this is what drives me and after over 7+ years on this forum, I don't think I'm alone. Casting off, even if only temporary, the facade of masculinity is a high and it is highly addictive. But, then I have an addictive personality (that's a trait that CAN be genetic, BTW.) I don't think for a minute that immersing myself in the semiotics of femininity makes me a woman. It doesn't even make women women. It makes me an emotional cripple and CD type behavior is my crutch. I can live with that since the imprint is very powerful and I lack the motivation to overcome it -- if that's even possible.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Stevie and Reine, your posts make the most sense.

As for this reluctance here to believe in fetish dressing, I wonder what we are to make of the other fetishes out there, like the Adult Babies and the Furries etc. The path of an AB is strikingly similiar to a crossdressers - first inexplicably being drawn to wearing a diaper somewhere between age 5 and 14. It starts off as occasional, then sexual, then as time passes it just feels like a normal identity and and soon they're wearing full baby gear and coming out to family. Are we meant to believe these men are literally babies inside? If not, why not? What about Furries or Amputee fetishists? If you can be turned on by an amputated leg and live your life fixated on this one thing, then surely women's clothing is almost ordinary!

I also don't think SOs are in such denial that we make stuff up to cope. I think, after reading this forum as long as I have, that for some here the personal embarrassment and stigma of crossdressing has created many a wishful theory to eliminate the poor reputation it generally carries - the one where the general public assume crossdressers live out some perverted Rocky Horror Show every day. It's understandable to want to change this association, but completely denying the other possible elements to dressing - the sexual or the addictive/compulsive or the emotional need - all of which COULD have been caused by brain wiring, is less about ours or anyone else's perception and more about the crossdresser's perception of himself. Ultimately, we can walk away from all this, but it's the members here who must walk this path for life and choosing the wrong one because it sounds better will not result in happiness. It just won't. The inner truth will always win.

Anyway Mia, if this is an emotional experience for you, then that's all that matters. Enjoy that. But don't feel this means you're on some path to transitioning or whatever. You can also be a guy who happens to like women's things and really, it's a little insulting that so many here think you MUST be a woman inside to want to emulate one of us - for surely no CIS man in his right mind would ever find such a thing enjoyable or even acceptable so all crossdressers must surely be female.

Its almost like the rigid roles we've assigned men are so strict, they've even permeated into personal identity and being a less than masculine man who happens to likes women's things gets you kicked permanently into the girl section. Girls can look and behave masculine and still identify as female, but if a boy dares to be feminine he couldn't possibly identify as male.

How did we reach this point of insanity?!?

[Marcelle]

Tink,

I have to admit I am a bit "disconcerted" that you are lumping CDing in with other fetishes as this only helps to permeate the belief that what we do is somehow a fetish with no other route cause then one day I decided to put on a dress and proclaim loudly "I'm a Lady". Seriously? Not the case for me. For others perhaps but trying to lump us all into one category is as useless as trying to lump all GGs into one definition of femininity and we know that is not possible.

As for the "emasculation" hypothesis . . .again not likely. I do not define myself as masculine or feminine (those are societal constraints). I define myself as a person . . . plain and simple. If you want to tack a masculine construct to me . . . well should someone decide that Isha needs a smack down when she is out and about . . . let's just say the individual will get the stereotypical masculine response . . . just saying. Do I feel like a woman inside when I am dressed? Heck no! But again what does that even mean? I feel like me and this part of me prefers to dress in clothing which society has directed belongs to one sex over the other. So just because I dress in women's clothing does not mean I think I am woman. When I wear it, it is not women's clothing, it is my clothing plain and simple.

Hugs

Isha

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Actually Isha, I'm not lumping. I'm merely sticking up for the fetish dressers who are told time and again that they don't exist! It's like there's a collective mental block here that there are some men who dress for sexual identity and satisfaction. Some of these fetishists even post here every now and again asking if they belong and I'm not surprised! I accept there are people who dress for gender. But there are some here (not you, as I know you see all sides) who think ALL crossdressers are the same and suffer with gender issues. Hence my point about the other fetishes - if they exist, then so too can fetish crossdressers. It's common sense.

[Kate Simmons]

There are no"hard and fast" rules for CDing and it can change over time. For years I actually needed it to continue in my role as a man, husband and father and derived sexual relief. Years later the drive changed to being in touch with my feelings and taking ownership of them. The overall drive is different for different people and always will be. I prefer to look at the individual person myself.

[PaulaQ]

Ultimately, we can walk away from all this, but it's the members here who must walk this path for life and choosing the wrong one because it sounds better will not result in happiness. It just won't. The inner truth will always win.

If only more of you were willing to face the inner truth, or not so constrict another that they choose the wrong path. Most of you don't even remotely come close to this though.

And thanks for comparing us trans women to amputee fetishists. Because no, that isn't offensive at all... Or do you view us still as completely separate from MtF CDs, even though no one can clearly differentiate who will or won't transition until AFTER they've started to transition?

BTW, its hard for transmen to be viewed as men by some in society. It'd be nice to write this off purely to the way society views men and women, but mostly the issue is that people are generally simply ignorant, cruel, and intolerant about these matters.

But what do I know? Clearly I'm worse than an amputee fetishist.

(Biographical note: I'm handicapped. I spent years of my early life in a children's hospital, with other kids who were less fortunate than I was. My best friend had no arms or legs. I really grow tired, and find extremely personally offensive, of people bringing up rather extreme fetishes in relation to trans*.)

But let's say you, and Reine, and Ray Blanchard are right. What do you gain by this explanation other than a way to shame us? You sure as heck don't gain a method of telling whether or not your disgusting pervert of a husband is, in fact, a poor mistreated little transwoman...

So I think really all you are accomplishing is promotion of transphobic ideas.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Paula, I was talking about FETISH dressers, not transwomen! Not even ordinary MTF crossdressers...just the fetish dressers. Read my post again!

[Marcelle]

Actually Isha, I'm not lumping. I'm merely sticking up for the fetish dressers who are told time and again that they don't exist! . . . if they exist, then so too can fetish crossdressers. It's common sense.

Hi Tink,

My bad and I apologize. That's what you get when reading a post early in the morning with one cup of coffee only. After a more careful reread I get your point. You are correct in that I believe we are all over the spectrum and fetish dressing is definitely in there and as you stated they have the right to not be lumped into a global collective (kind of a Borg TG . . . sorry nerdy Trekki here) if they choose not to. I truly believe nurture/nature or points in between, we all end up where we are for different reasons so there is no one size fits all.

Hugs

Isha

[Katey888]

Let's try to be ladylike AND stick to the OP please, members...

I think Mia's assertion was correct in the constrained way it was deliberately expressed... Clearly there ARE CDers who fit the definition of fetish just as there are those who don't AT ALL.

Then there are those in between who might have been ONCE - but no longer do so (lots of these, I believe...) and some who probably slip back to it... maybe...

And I'm sure there are many more who blend emotional and physiological needs as the feeling takes them.

Mia - it really doesn't matter about others - it's really how we feel about it as individuals, particularly when our individual behaviour has no overt impact on anyone else... I think it's more important when an SO is involved to be aware of the motivations, but at the end of it all, emotions and physiology are inextricably linked, even if it isn't sexual...

It is what it is on an individual basis - we have to accept that for all of us here, it can mean subtly, or radically different things...

Katey x